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Jan Markell Interviews - April 18, 2009 Program
Olive Tree Ministries Radio Program ^ | April 18, 2009 | Jan Markell

Posted on 04/20/2009 7:21:21 PM PDT by Star Traveler

Here is the latest program from Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries - from Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota, on AM980 KKMS. The weekly broadcast specilizes in interviewing various guest, usually two per program (an hour each).

The following are the two guests on for this most recent program.

Dr. Ron Rhodes returns to talk Bible prophecy with Jan. Why is the secular world more interested in eschatology than the church? Those who follow the "end-times" are now called "right-wing extremists" by Homeland Security. Our world is upside down, inside out, and what is the Christian--particularly those watching the "signs of the times"--to do? The scoffing has intensified but due to the turmoil of our times, more are listening, asking questions, and are going to ask you for answers. Dr. Rhodes is one of our "Understanding the Times 2009" speakers. Find Dr. Rhodes' book, "Northern Storm Rising", here.

Bill Salus is the author of the popular book "Israelestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East." Jan and Bill talk about general "signs of the times," the Church of Laodicea, the passage of Psalm 83 (found in a Bible opened to that page in a Irish filthy bog in 2006,) and other important issues of the day. Salus' book will be on our Web site within a week and can be then found here. Salus believes the Psalm 83 war may be the next major war in the Mideast.

--

Here is some information from the Olive Tree Ministries about itself.

Jan Markell, Founder and President of Olive Tree Ministries, was saved under Jewish evangelist Hyman Appleman when she was a child. In Jan’s early ministry years she was a part of the Messianic movement, worked for pro-Israel agencies, and for Jewish evangelism ministries.

In 1982, Jan incorporated Olive Tree Ministries and the goals of the ministry can be read at “Our Purpose.” Jan has written eight major books with prominent Christian publishing houses. She has produced a dozen DVDs, some featured on Sky Angel. At one time she traveled full time across America as a speaker. Visit our store to see some of the products by Jan that are available for purchase. In the year 2000, Jan launched a radio branch of the ministry starting first on AM980 KKMS, Minneapolis/St. Paul. In 2004, the program was syndicated nationally and is heard internationally on the Internet. “Understanding the Times” radio has been received well as a source of news and information hard to find. “Understanding the Times” is interview and commentary-driven. Learn more at the “Radio Show” category. We have had e-mail response from across America and from two-dozen foreign countries listening to the program.

The ministry has five employees including Jan’s personal assistant Heidi Swander. Other employees assist in radio production and technical areas. Olive Tree Ministries is a registered 501c3 organization.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: dispensational; endtimes; prophecy; rapture
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See the first post, below, for the links to the latest program.
1 posted on 04/20/2009 7:21:21 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

Jan Markell
Olive Tree Ministries
http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/
[ ... several years of radio programming at this link ... ]

The following is the latesst radio interview of the two guests — Dr., Ron Rhodes and Bill Salus.


April 18, 2009 - Hour 1
http://mp3.olivetreeviews.org/OTM2009_04_18A.mp3

Dr. Ron Rhodes returns to talk Bible prophecy with Jan. Why is the secular world more interested in eschatology than the church? Those who follow the “end-times” are now called “right-wing extremists” by Homeland Security. Our world is upside down, inside out, and what is the Christian—particularly those watching the “signs of the times”—to do? The scoffing has intensified but due to the turmoil of our times, more are listening, asking questions, and are going to ask you for answers. Dr. Rhodes is one of our “Understanding the Times 2009” speakers. Find Dr. Rhodes’ book, “Northern Storm Rising”, here. — http://www.ronrhodes.org.

April 18, 2009 - Hour 2
http://mp3.olivetreeviews.org/OTM2009_04_18B.mp3

Bill Salus is the author of the popular book “Israelestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East.” Jan and Bill talk about general “signs of the times,” the Church of Laodicea, the passage of Psalm 83 (found in a Bible opened to that page in a Irish filthy bog in 2006,) and other important issues of the day. Salus’ book will be on our Web site within a week and can be then found here. Salus believes the Psalm 83 war may be the next major war in the Mideast. http://www.prophecydepot.com.


These two shows are really great for information concerning these “End Times” that we are in, and how fast things are developing in today’s world.


2 posted on 04/20/2009 7:21:59 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Quix; TaraP; Jo Nuvark

Some End-Times info for y’all...


3 posted on 04/20/2009 7:22:54 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

Thanks


4 posted on 04/20/2009 9:34:40 PM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Star Traveler

Will try to get to them this week.


5 posted on 04/20/2009 9:36:38 PM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Star Traveler; raynearhood; Lee N. Field
Why is the secular world more interested in eschatology than the church?

Translation: Why isn't the (American) church more interested in the futurist pop eschatology found in places like the Left Behind series?

It could be that the rest of the church is not convinced that the futurists have it all figured out, biblically speaking. Maybe Israel-centric folks like John Hagee are not good spokesmen for futurism.

6 posted on 04/21/2009 8:34:16 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54; Star Traveler; raynearhood
The scoffing has intensified

Holding pop dispensationalism up to the light of scripture =/= scoffing.

7 posted on 04/21/2009 8:58:59 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (Come, behold the works of the LORD, how he has brought desolations on the earth.)
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To: Lee N. Field; topcat54; raynearhood; Quix; TaraP; Jo Nuvark

Well, we already know that there are those — like y’all — who think that those prophecies (that many of us are talking about) have already been fulfilled in the past and are not relevant for today, and that the nation of Israel is not significant, today, in terms of prophecy in the Bible.

And you can keep on thinking that... LOL... (heck! I’m not even trying to change your mind...)

The rest of us will go along with looking at Israel, today, as being significant and relevant in the prophecies of the Bible, and listening to teachers who are teaching from pre-millennial, pre-tribulational and dispensational theology — which does have Israel, of today, being the focus of these Bible prophecies.

You can have fun in your sandbox... :-)


8 posted on 04/21/2009 10:28:39 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
The rest of us …

You can have fun in your sandbox... :-)

The futurists bemoan the fact that the rest of Christendom does not see eschatology through dispensational glasses. That’s OK. But, contrary to your opinion, this is not the result of some diabolical plot to keep truth from people. There are many, perhaps a majority, of biblically astute, regenerate Christians who refuse to go along with the futurist agenda. As long as the Jan Markels of this world keep trying to paint it as a conspiracy, it will be difficult for the rest of us to take it seriously.

I much prefer our sandbox to your mud puddle.

9 posted on 04/21/2009 11:50:04 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

You said — I much prefer our sandbox to your mud puddle.

Well, that’s (of course...) your description which exemplifies very well your attitude towards the pre-mil, pre-trib, dispensational view — and is the same type of “attitude” as you would say describes the viewpoint of Jan Markell.

In other words, it’s okay for “mud puddles” (from your viewpoint) but not the viewpoint that others are “neglecting this teaching” (from the other side).... LOL...

That’s like the pot calling the kettle black... :-)

It very simply comes down to the fact that we think you are wrong — and you think we are wrong... so what’s new?

And in the meantime, we’ll continue teaching that there is a Rapture that happens which is a separate event from the coming of the Lord to set up the Kingdom on earth, literally and physically, and that Israel *is significant* in terms of the prophecies of God and that there are many “end-times” prophecies that have to be fulfilled with Israel, before the coming of the Lord to set up the Kingdom and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of the Lord over this earth, during which time Satan will be chained and bound and not allowed to deceive the nations during this time.

And yes..., you’re going to say that you don’t believe a word of it... LOL...


10 posted on 04/21/2009 12:38:21 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
It very simply comes down to the fact that we think you are wrong — and you think we are wrong... so what’s new?

My point is that you shouldn't bemoan the fact that folks don't jump on the futurist bandwagon and call them "scoffers". If Markell and her guests were so rock solid in their exegesis the case would be made.

And yes..., you’re going to say that you don’t believe a word of it... LOL...

Let's just say the futurist scenario requires a lot of extra-biblical assumptions and bit of Scripture twisting.

11 posted on 04/21/2009 3:32:40 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

You said — My point is that you shouldn’t bemoan the fact that folks don’t jump on the futurist bandwagon and call them “scoffers”. If Markell and her guests were so rock solid in their exegesis the case would be made.

Well, I could also make the point that if yours was so rock solid in its exegesis, you would have more jump on your bandwagon, as opposed to hardly finding anyone... :-)

I believe the “scoffers” are the ones talked about in the Bible, which Markell and other prophecy teachers are talking about.

===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

You said — Let’s just say the futurist scenario requires a lot of extra-biblical assumptions and bit of Scripture twisting.

Well..., you know..., you just took the words right out of my mouth — in regards to your “no more prophecy scenario” (LOL...), along about your denial of Israel having any significance today in regards to the Bible, and your denial of the Rapture coming at any moment (much less coming at all, before the Second Coming), and your denial of God’s Kingdom being established on this earth for the 1,000 year reign of Christ, during which time Satan will be bound and in chains for the duration.

I guess we’ll just have to see who has the extra-biblical assumptions here —

You and those who deny Israel has any significance now and in the future, in regards to the Bible, and deny that there is a Rapture of the church and deny there is any prophecies of future events that are in the process of being fulfilled right now, as the Bible says... (or rather that you deny the Bible says... LOL...)

— OR —

The ones who say that Israel will be eternally protected by God and remain a nation before him forever, and that God has future prophecies to fulfill for this nation and we’re seeing them develop now, and that there is, indeed, going to be the Rapture of the church coming soon, before the Tribulation period of time comes upon this earth and Armageddon ensues.

Yes, indeed, time will certainly tell, won’t it... :-)

And in the meantime, we will be informing people of those things which will happen according to what God’s word about it say... [and you can go on denying all these prophecies (or “non-prophecies” as you may say...) that you want, because you’ll be the one with “egg on your face”... LOL...]


AND... for some more “good information” that those — “deniers of Bible Prophecy yet to be fulfilled for Israel” like to *decry* — here is a good radio program which goes into some detailed information about the Psalm 83 prophecy — *to be fulfilled* — for Israel a very close time-frame (perhaps months or some years, but not too much more)...

Psalm 83 - Part 1
http://kwbb.org/Prelude_to_Psalm_83__11-14-08_2ND_AIR_DATE_12-05n6_num2.mp3

Psalm 83 - Part 2
http://kwbb.org/PART_TWO_OF_PSALM_83_FOR_12-12__AND_13-08.mp3

Psalm 83 - Part 3
http://kwbb.org/Psalm_83_pt_3_Final.mp3

Bill Salus is the author of Isralestine, which is a book about this subject of Israel and Psalm 83 — Yes!, lo and behold, a *yet future* prophecy concerning the nation of Israel, which people will see shortly... Oh my!! LOL...

The book on Amazon -
Isralestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East
http://www.amazon.com/dp/098149577X

http://www.isralestine.org/
http://www.isralestine.net/

Some articles written on the RaptureReady website
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus2.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus3.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus4.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus5.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus6.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus7.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus8.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus9.html

PROPHECY UPDATE RADIO Hosted by Bill Salus
http://prophecyupdateradio.blogspot.com/


12 posted on 04/21/2009 4:09:50 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; topcat54; raynearhood
Well, we already know that there are those — like y’all — who think that those prophecies (that many of us are talking about) have already been fulfilled in the past and are not relevant for today,

Opinions vary, as you should well know, as to how and to what extent various biblical prophecies have been fulfilled.

and is the same type of “attitude” as you would say describes the viewpoint of Jan Markell.

I find Jan Markell's attitude poisonous.

we’ll continue teaching that there is a Rapture that happens which is a separate event from the coming of the Lord to set up the Kingdom on earth, literally and physically, and that Israel *is significant* in terms of the prophecies of God and that there are many “end-times” prophecies that have to be fulfilled with Israel, before the coming of the Lord to set up the Kingdom and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of the Lord over this earth, during which time Satan will be chained and bound and not allowed to deceive the nations during this time.

And, if this thread follows the usual course, before long some thoroughgoing heretics will chime in in support of dispensationalist interpretation.

13 posted on 04/21/2009 4:10:15 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field

You said — And, if this thread follows the usual course, before long some thoroughgoing heretics will chime in in support of dispensationalist interpretation.

What do you mean “before long”... it *started* that way with the posting of this thread... LOL...

You’re the one who is denying that Israel has anything to do with future events in the Bible and that Israel is of no more significance in the Bible than any other nation is of significance... :-)

We’ll see who is right as these prophecies of the Bible work out in real-life, in the world — or rather see if your “absence of future prophecies” works out... (ummm..., how does the “absence of future prophecies” work out... I guess “nothing” happens, that the Bible says about these prophecies, because according to you it’s all happened with Israel already... [a double-LOL here...])....


14 posted on 04/21/2009 4:17:46 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Lee N. Field

You said — I find Jan Markell’s attitude poisonous.

Ummm..., well, I hope you find mine absolutely *deadly* and just drop over about now... LOL...


15 posted on 04/21/2009 4:30:42 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
I believe the “scoffers” are the ones talked about in the Bible, which Markell and other prophecy teachers are talking about.

But who does that include? Does it include those of us who believe that Markell's eschatology is unbiblical and dangerous?

Well..., you know..., you just took the words right out of my mouth — in regards to your “no more prophecy scenario” (LOL...),

“no more prophecy scenario”?? Who are you talking about?

along about your denial of Israel having any significance today in regards to the Bible,

No one has provided any evidence that modern Israel is prophetically significant. Yours is an entirely speculative assertion. We scoff at those who say that modern, secular Israel is prophetically significant without any specific biblical data.

your denial of the Rapture coming at any moment (much less coming at all, before the Second Coming),

The rapture is the Second Coming, and we do not know the hour. It could be today for a 1000 years from today. No one knows. At least that is what the Bible says. We scoff at those who claim to know or suggest they know. We scoff at those who divide the Second Coming into various little comings.

your denial of God’s Kingdom being established on this earth for the 1,000 year reign of Christ,

The Bible does not teach that Christ will reign on the earth for a literal 1000 years. That is certainly not taught in Revelation 20, the only passage in the Bible that references the thousand years. We scoff at those who suggest they know for sure without adequate biblical support.

I guess we’ll just have to see who has the extra-biblical assumptions here —

All that you have just said is extra-biblical, based entirely on the futurist dispensational system. If you do not adopt the system, you will not come to the conclusions you have outlined.

The ones who say that Israel will be eternally protected by God and remain a nation before him forever,

But they haven't and they won't. That is clear from the Bible. The error is in seeing the promises as being directed towards Israel after the flesh, rather than towards the true Israel of God, Jesus Christ, and the true sons of Abraham, the Church. We scoff at those who elevate Israel after the flesh above Jesus Christ in prophetic significance.

16 posted on 04/21/2009 6:38:59 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

LOL... still trying to deny I see...

We’ll keep right on teaching about Israel and prophecy and you can keep right on denying... In fact, you’ll be happy to hear I’m listening to Dr. Randall Price, right at the moment (online archive), preaching at a church in Austin, Texas...

http://www.austinbiblechurch.com/price.asp

I’m sure you can go “on and on” about ole Dr. Price, too... :-) IN FACT, for y’all who want to hear how wrong some of these “naysayers” are, take a listen over at that page...

But, in the meantime, for all you “good people” who would like to get in on a *real Rapture* discussion, feel free to come on over to the Rapture Caucus thread, where we don’t have to listen to all those idiotic “naysayers” — naysaying against the Rapture... LOL...

The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2209700/posts

“Come on down” and we’ll be glad to talk to y’all...


17 posted on 04/21/2009 6:46:12 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler
You said — And, if this thread follows the usual course, before long some thoroughgoing heretics will chime in in support of dispensationalist interpretation.

What do you mean “before long”... it *started* that way with the posting of this thread... LOL...

Oh??? What sort are you? What we usually see chiming in are legalistic Judaizers and non-trinitarians. And those who see no problem with consorting with them.

You’re the one who is denying that Israel has anything to do with future events in the Bible and that Israel is of no more significance in the Bible than any other nation is of significance... :-)

I assume you've read Paul's epistle to the Romans, at least once. We could start there.

or rather see if your “absence of future prophecies” works out...

Have you ever actually read anything by anyone who's not a dispensationalist? Outside of people like Peter, Paul, John, Luke, Moses, Isaiah, etc., that is.

18 posted on 04/21/2009 7:06:34 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: Lee N. Field

I suppose y’all are going to complain and complain about Jan Markell, or Dr. Fruchtenbaum, or Dr. David Reagan, or John MacArthur or Bill Salus, or Walid Shoebat, or Thomas Ice, or Mark Hitchcock, or John Whitcomb, or Ed Hindson, or Earl Radmacher, or Dwight Pentecost, or David Hocking or Joel Rosenberg, or Charles Ryrie or ...

Oh heck! Instead of taking up a couple of pages here..., let’s just say y’all are against everyone else that doesn’t agree with you... it’s easier to say that way... LOL...

And since I happened to mention Thomas Ice, we might as well give his great website...

http://www.pre-trib.org/

And another guy that would be good is Dr. David Reagan, too...

http://www.lamblion.com/

Both wonderful websites for anyone wanting to find out more about what the Bible says about the prophecies of Israel and the end-times...


19 posted on 04/21/2009 7:16:21 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler
I suppose y’all are going to complain and complain about Jan Markell, et al

No, I mostly don't pay much attention to them, unless they say something egregiously ungospelish. Amuse yourself arguing about Larkin charts, I don't care. Divide the people of God by race and descent, flat out contrary to Paul, and you have different gospels. I have a problem with that.

Who have you read who's not a dispensationalist?

20 posted on 04/21/2009 7:35:36 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: Lee N. Field

You said — Who have you read who’s not a dispensationalist?

Ummm..., you mean who *is* a preterist? ... LOL... in other words, what heresies have I been reading lately?

Which remind me, if people want to see the heresies of the preterists... take a gander down to this website to hear Mark Hithcock (a pastor from Edmond, OK and co-writer of a book with John Walvoord)...

http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/newmedia/sermon.asp?v=a

Specifically about the heresy of Preterism...

An Introduction to Preterism
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060111_w3881.mp3

End Times Controversey - Preterism Part 2
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060118_w3882.mp3

A Critique of the Preterist View of Matthew 24 - Preterism Part 3
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060125_w3883.mp3

An Introduction to Preterist Interpretation of Revelation - Preterism Part 4
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060201_w3884.mp3

Was Nero the Beast of Revelation 13 - Preterism Part 5
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060208_w3885.mp3

Preterism and the Date of Revelation 13 - Preterism Part 6
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060215_w3886.mp3

Preterism and the Date of Revelation 13 - Preterism Part 7
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060222_w3887.mp3

Preterism - Questions & Answers - Preterism Part 8
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060301_w3888.mp3


21 posted on 04/21/2009 7:44:30 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler
LOL... still trying to deny I see...

Nothing to deny. That's the point. It's all speculation on your part about modern, secular Israel et al and how it allegedly fits into prophecy.

As I said if you don't drink the kool aid you won't swallow the system.

22 posted on 04/21/2009 8:18:18 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Star Traveler
No, I'm not going to sit and listen to who knows how many hours of that stuff. I've got plenty enough on my mp3 player right now.
what heresies have I been reading lately?

Ummm. I've got a "questionable to heretical" section, for reference. Book of Mormon goes there, papist stuff, a marian apparations book, Rob't Schuller's self esteem book. Osteen will, once I find something at a garage sale cheap. Koran will, ditto.I've got some of the standard dispy stuff in my library (not, BTW, in the questionable to heretical section) -- Scofield v. 1.0 and 2.0, Hal "this year for sure Rocky" Lindsay, oldies like Salem Kirban, some others. I get more as I run across it cheap.

The overwhelming impression I get is that your average pop dispensationalist pundit is not at all familiar with any other position, other than the caricatures that they repeat to each other. Thus my current tagline.

You've heard of, surely, B. B. Warfield. He wrote a bit on eschatology, in his Selected Shorter Writings.

23 posted on 04/21/2009 8:20:30 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: topcat54

Well, don’t tell anybody, but there are people who think that the rebirth of Israel has to do with what the Bible says and the prophecies contained in it, about Israel...

The Declaration Of The Establishment Of The State Of Israel (May 14, 1948)

On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over Palestine expired, the Jewish People’s Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and approved the following proclamation, declaring the establishment of the State of Israel. The new state was recognized that night at 11:00 AM Israel time by the United States and three days later by the USSR.


“ERETZ-ISRAEL (the Land of Israel) was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma’pilim (immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation) and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country’s inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.

In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.

This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.

The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people — the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe — was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the community of nations.

Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Eretz-Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.

In the Second World War, the Jewish community of this country contributed its full share to the struggle of the freedom- and peace-loving nations against the forces of Nazi wickedness and, by the blood of its soldiers and its war effort, gained the right to be reckoned among the peoples who founded the United Nations.

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People’s Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People’s Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called “Israel”.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.

WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream — the redemption of Israel.

PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE ALMIGHTY, WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948).”

David Ben-Gurion

Daniel Auster
Mordekhai Bentov
Yitzchak Ben Zvi
Eliyahu Berligne
Fritz Bernstein
Rabbi Wolf Gold
Meir Grabovsky
Yitzchak Gruenbaum
Dr. Abraham Granovsky
Eliyahu Dobkin
Meir Wilner-Kovner
Zerach Wahrhaftig
Herzl Vardi
Rachel Cohen
Rabbi Kalman Kahana
Saadia Kobashi
Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Levin
Meir David Loewenstein
Zvi Luria
Golda Myerson
Nachum Nir
Zvi Segal
Rabbi Yehuda Leib Hacohen Fishman
David Zvi Pinkas
Aharon Zisling
Moshe Kolodny
Eliezer Kaplan
Abraham Katznelson
Felix Rosenblueth
David Remez
Berl Repetur
Mordekhai Shattner
Ben Zion Sternberg
Bekhor Shitreet
Moshe Shapira
Moshe Shertok


We surely would not want anyone to think that this has anything to do with the Bible and any prophecies (”future ones” no less) about Israel. They might get the wrong idea and think that this re-establishment of Israel as a nation actually had something to do with God... LOL...


24 posted on 04/21/2009 8:22:06 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Lee N. Field

Well, I guess that means you won’t be reading John Walvoord then... LOL...

http://www.walvoord.com/


Welcome to the deep and wide biblical teaching which Dr. John F. Walvoord offers to the generations which survive him.

Dr. Walvoord, one of evangelicalism’s most prominent 20th century leaders, was a man of remarkable depth and breadth. Though best known for his encyclopedic grasp of Bible prophecy, he was also a man who understood and taught the core of Christian theology with unusual clarity and conviction.

His first book, published in 1943, was The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ Our Lord, published a quarter of a century later, in 1969, is described by a recent online reviewer as “a great introduction to Christology,” and provides depth and breadth seldom found in other books which attempt to capture the complex profundity of Jesus. His dozens of works on prophetic themes all point to the one Dr. Walvoord loved from the depth of his being: Jesus Christ, his Lord.

Take a few minutes to click through this site. You’ll find articles, entire books, audio sermons, and a growing collection of resources that will enrich your understanding of the Bible.

This site will continue to grow as more of the tens of thousands of pages penned by Dr. Walvoord in his more than 60 years of teaching, writing, and preaching come to life digitally.


We wouldn’t want you to “offend yourself” by reading him, now... would we? He might be saying something about “future prophecies” and about Israel and — man! — that just would be “too much” for you, wouldn’t it... LOL...


25 posted on 04/21/2009 8:25:58 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: topcat54

I also take it, that you won’t be going to study at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, then, studying under Dr. Ergun Caner, Dean.


FIRST FORMER MUSLIM TO BECOME DEAN OF AN EVANGELICAL SEMINARY IN THE U.S.

Liberty University announces Dr. Ergun Caner as the new Dean of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. Caner fills the post vacated by Dr. Danny Lovett who leaves to assume the presidency of Tennessee Temple University in Chattanooga.

Caner, the first former Muslim to become the dean of an evangelical seminary in the United States, has spent two years at Liberty University teaching Theology and Church History in the School of Religion. A very popular professor, Caner energizes his listeners through both his humor and direct preaching.

“We will develop the seminary into the leading evangelical institution for training Christians for a new generation. It is no longer sufficient to simply train graduate students in theory and abstract; we must challenge them to reach a world with 140 major religions, many of whom inhabit our shores. Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary will set the standard for global apologetics on a world stage,” Caner said.

Dr. Jerry Falwell recently said, “He [Caner] is today one of the most electrifying speakers and defenders of the faith that I have ever heard. I am proud to call him a friend and so thankful that God has sent him to Liberty to lead what I believe will be a revolution in seminary education on this campus. Dr. Caner has also become a voice for evangelical Christianity in the national media, debating Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Bah’ai leaders on more than 50 college and university campuses.”

Dr. Daniel Akin, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary said, “Dr. Ergun Caner is a fine scholar and an outstanding communicator of Christian truth. He will bring energy and passion as Dean of this fine seminary. I commend Dr. Falwell on such an excellent choice.”

After accepting Jesus Christ into his life and surrendering to the Gospel ministry, Caner continued his education receiving his Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Studies and Languages in 1989 from Cumberland College in Williamsburg, Kentucky. He then received his Master of Arts in History from the Criswell College in Dallas, Texas in 1992. In 1994, he received his Master of Divinity from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina, and in 1995, he completed his Master of Theology at Southeastern. In 2000, Caner received his Doctor of Theology from the University of South Africa in residence in Johannesburg.

Prior to coming to Liberty University, Caner taught Theology and Church History for two years at Criswell College. Caner and his wife of 11 years, Jill, are the parents of two sons, Braxton and Drake.

“Dr. Ergun Caner will bring a breathe of heaven to the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. He is an on-fire Christian, a wonderful preacher, a personal soul winner and a committed scholar. I believe under his leadership the Seminary will see its greatest day.”

Dr. Jerry Vines
Senior Pastor- First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Florida
Former President- Southern Baptist Convention

“Dr. Ergun Caner is a fine scholar and an outstanding communicator of Christian truth. He will bring energy and passion as Dean of this fine seminary. I commend Dr. Falwell on such an excellent choice.”

Dr. Daniel L. Akin
President, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Wake Forest, North Carolina

“Without question Ergun Caner is one of the up and coming evangelical leaders of the next generation. As a Liberty University Board member I am thrilled beyond words that this outstanding scholar, teacher and preacher has been named the new dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. Only God knows the incredible heights that LBTS will reach under Dr. Caner’s inspiring leadership.”

Dr. James Merritt
Senior Pastor
Cross Point Church, Atlanta, Georgia
Former President- Southern Baptist Convention

“Everything about Ergun Caner is remarkable because the grace of God is remarkable. This young theologian will add a dimension and a depth to Liberty that will further establish it as the world’s premier Evangelical University.”

Dr. D. Mac Brunson
Senior Pastor First Baptist Church Dallas
Chancellor - Criswell College

“Ergun Caner is a fabulous choice for serving as President of Liberty University Theological Seminary. He represents scholarship being on fire for God. His pulpit to the nation over the past three years serves as a nationwide recruiting spiritual attraction for the seminary due to his enthusiastic, scholarly, humorous, evangelistic approach as he communicates God’s Word in a cutting edge manner.”

Dr. Ronnie Floyd
Senior Pastor- First Baptist Church Springdale, ARK

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=6849&sid=23


We certainly wouldn’t want you to dump your heretical views in place of a seminary that could teach you some real things about “future prophecy” and “Israel” and the significance of Israel in the future prophecy that the Bible teaches us.

Dr. Ergun Caner might just tell you that you don’t know the Bible as well as you thought...

... might give you a heart attack... LOL...


26 posted on 04/21/2009 8:39:57 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
I also take it, that you won’t be going to study at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, then, studying under Dr. Ergun Caner, Dean.

This is old news, but, no, it probably won’t happen.

Caner Declares Jihad on Doctrines of Grace

27 posted on 04/22/2009 5:33:37 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Star Traveler
Well, don’t tell anybody, but there are people who think that the rebirth of Israel has to do with what the Bible says and the prophecies contained in it, about Israel...

When folks start actually quoting the Bible to prove their theories are air tight, then that will be news. Otherwise it is all just propaganda for the Rapture Ready® crowd.

Let me ask a simple question, what do you know for-certain-absolutely-without-a-doubt from the Bible alone wrt modern, secular Israel?

28 posted on 04/22/2009 5:38:31 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
Ummm..., you mean who *is* a preterist? ... LOL... in other words, what heresies have I been reading lately?

Your ignorance is showing here (again). First of all, Lee is not a preterist. Secondly, some preterists are heretics just like some dispensationalists are heretics.

I guess in your book all non-dispensaitonalists are heretics.

29 posted on 04/22/2009 5:41:49 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

I guess Dallas Theological Seminary would be out, for you too... LOL...

http://www.dts.edu/

Article V—THE DISPENSATIONS

We believe that the dispensations are stewardships by which God administers His purpose on the earth through man under varying responsibilities. We believe that the changes in the dispensational dealings of God with man depend on changed conditions or situations in which man is successively found with relation to God, and that these changes are the result of the failures of man and the judgments of God. We believe that different administrative responsibilities of this character are manifest in the biblical record, that they span the entire history of mankind, and that each ends in the failure of man under the respective test and in an ensuing judgment from God. We believe that three of these dispensations or rules of life are the subject of extended revelation in the Scriptures, viz., the dispensation of the Mosaic Law, the present dispensation of grace, and the future dispensation of the millennial kingdom. We believe that these are distinct and are not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive.

We believe that the dispensations are not ways of salvation nor different methods of administering the so-called Covenant of Grace. They are not in themselves dependent on covenant relationships but are ways of life and responsibility to God which test the submission of man to His revealed will during a particular time. We believe that if man does trust in his own efforts to gain the favor of God or salvation under any dispensational test, because of inherent sin his failure to satisfy fully the just requirements of God is inevitable and his condemnation sure.

We believe that according to the “eternal purpose” of God (Eph. 3:11) salvation in the divine reckoning is always “by grace through faith,” and rests upon the basis of the shed blood of Christ. We believe that God has always been gracious, regardless of the ruling dispensation, but that man has not at all times been under an administration or stewardship of grace as is true in the present dispensation (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2; 3:9, asv; Col. 1:25; 1 Tim. 1:4, asv).

We believe that it has always been true that “without faith it is impossible to please” God (Heb. 11:6), and that the principle of faith was prevalent in the lives of all the Old Testament saints. However, we believe that it was historically impossible that they should have had as the conscious object of their faith the incarnate, crucified Son, the Lamb of God (John 1:29), and that it is evident that they did not comprehend as we do that the sacrifices depicted the person and work of Christ. We believe also that they did not understand the redemptive significance of the prophecies or types concerning the sufferings of Christ (1 Pet. 1:10–12); therefore, we believe that their faith toward God was manifested in other ways as is shown by the long record in Hebrews 11:1–40. We believe further that their faith thus manifested was counted unto them for righteousness (cf. Rom. 4:3 with Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5–8; Heb. 11:7).

Article XIII—THE CHURCH, A UNITY OF BELIEVERS

We believe that all who are united to the risen and ascended Son of God are members of the church which is the body and bride of Christ, which began at Pentecost and is completely distinct from Israel. Its members are constituted as such regardless of membership or nonmembership in the organized churches of earth. We believe that by the same Spirit all believers in this age are baptized into, and thus become, one body that is Christ’s, whether Jews or Gentiles, and having become members one of another, are under solemn duty to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, rising above all sectarian differences, and loving one another with a pure heart fervently (Matt. 16:16–18; Acts 2:42–47; Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 12:12–27; Eph. 1:20–23; 4:3–10; Col. 3:14–15).

Article XVIII—THE BLESSED HOPE

We believe that, according to the Word of God, the next great event in the fulfillment of prophecy will be the coming of the Lord in the air to receive to Himself into heaven both His own who are alive and remain unto His coming, and also all who have fallen asleep in Jesus, and that this event is the blessed hope set before us in the Scripture, and for this we should be constantly looking (John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thess. 4:13–18; Titus 2:11–14).

Article XIX—THE TRIBULATION

We believe that the translation of the church will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1–19:21) during which the church, the body of Christ, will be in heaven. The whole period of Israel’s seventieth week will be a time of judgment on the whole earth, at the end of which the times of the Gentiles will be brought to a close. The latter half of this period will be the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7), which our Lord called the great tribulation (Matt. 24:15–21). We believe that universal righteousness will not be realized previous to the second coming of Christ, but that the world is day by day ripening for judgment and that the age will end with a fearful apostasy.

Article XX—THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

We believe that the period of great tribulation in the earth will be climaxed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to the earth as He went, in person on the clouds of heaven, and with power and great glory to introduce the millennial age, to bind Satan and place him in the abyss, to lift the curse which now rests upon the whole creation, to restore Israel to her own land and to give her the realization of God’s covenant promises, and to bring the whole world to the knowledge of God (Deut. 30:1–10; Isa. 11:9; Ezek. 37:21–28; Matt. 24:15–25:46; Acts 15:16–17; Rom. 8:19–23; 11:25–27; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; Rev. 20:1–3).

Article XXI—THE ETERNAL STATE

We believe that at death the spirits and souls of those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation pass immediately into His presence and there remain in conscious bliss until the resurrection of the glorified body when Christ comes for His own, whereupon soul and body reunited shall be associated with Him forever in glory; but the spirits and souls of the unbelieving remain after death conscious of condemnation and in misery until the final judgment of the great white throne at the close of the millennium, when soul and body reunited shall be cast into the lake of fire, not to be annihilated, but to be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power (Luke 16:19–26; 23:42; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 2 Thess. 1:7–9; Jude 6–7; Rev. 20:11–15).

http://www.dts.edu/about/doctrinalstatement/


30 posted on 04/22/2009 5:42:08 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: topcat54

There are enough of them who post here... LOL...


31 posted on 04/22/2009 5:43:12 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
There are enough of them who post here... LOL...

Such as?

32 posted on 04/22/2009 5:44:00 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

Anyone who says these prophecies concerning Israel already have happened, already... :-)


33 posted on 04/22/2009 5:45:27 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: topcat54; Quix; TaraP; Jo Nuvark

Of course, for those who do want to find out about the prophecies concerning Israel, the soon coming Rapture of the church, these still yet to be fulfilled —and God’s plan for Israel in the coming 1,000 reign of Christ on this earth in the Millennial Kingdom, then they can listen to Pastor Mark Hitchcock.

He has co-authored a book with John F. Walvoord [ http://www.walvoord.com/ ] and is a pastor of Edmond Faith Bible Church in Oklahoma [ http://www.edmondfaithbible.com/ ] and has Charles Ryrie come and speak at his church at times, too (of the Ryrie Study Bible; NIV Ryrie Study Bible, Moody Publishers; Expanded edition, 1999).

I know this is *too much for you to take*(... LOL...), but some others will enjoy this teaching from Pastor Mark Hitchcock.

Dispensationalism part I
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071107_W419-1.mp3
by Mark Hitchcock

Dispensationalism Part II
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071114_w419-2.mp3
by Mark Hitchcock

Dispensationalism Part III
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071128_w419-3.mp3
by Mark Hitchcock

Dispensationalism Part IV
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071205_w419-4.mp3
by Dr. Charles Ryrie

Of course, there’s the pastor preaching on the *false teaching* of Preterism, too. Here are the sermons about the heresy of Preterism...

An Introduction to Preterism
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060111_w3881.mp3

End Times Controversey - Preterism Part 2
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060118_w3882.mp3

A Critique of the Preterist View of Matthew 24 - Preterism Part 3
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060125_w3883.mp3

An Introduction to Preterist Interpretation of Revelation - Preterism Part 4
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060201_w3884.mp3

Was Nero the Beast of Revelation 13 - Preterism Part 5
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060208_w3885.mp3

Preterism and the Date of Revelation 13 - Preterism Part 6
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060215_w3886.mp3

Preterism and the Date of Revelation 13 - Preterism Part 7
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060222_w3887.mp3

Preterism - Questions & Answers - Preterism Part 8
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060301_w3888.mp3

And for y’all that I also pinged, it’s some good teaching here... by some excellent preachers, as Pastor Mark Hitchcock and Dr. Charles Ryrie (of the Ryrie Study Bible) and so this is teaching from the most excellent Christian sources in Evangelical Christianity, not only coming from these two, but from a very distinguished history in Evangelical Christianity, and even before it was called Evangelical Christianity.


34 posted on 04/22/2009 6:09:23 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
Anyone who says these prophecies concerning Israel already have happened, already... :-)

That's not heresy.

35 posted on 04/22/2009 6:11:06 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field
Of course, for those who do want to find out about the prophecies concerning Israel, the soon coming Rapture of the church, these still yet to be fulfilled —and God’s plan for Israel in the coming 1,000 reign of Christ on this earth in the Millennial Kingdom, then they can listen to Pastor Mark Hitchcock.

Which suggests to me that you cannot articulate this from the Bible yourself. At least you cannot give a defense that will stand up in this forum.

36 posted on 04/22/2009 6:12:45 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

Probably qualifies by God’s judgment for those who are due to be taken out of this world, before they are fully in control of Satan’s lies and doctrines of demons...


37 posted on 04/22/2009 6:13:02 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: topcat54

No use in reinventing the wheel when almost all of Evangelical Christianity and pastors will do it already... LOL... Heck! It’s so easy gathering all these teachers and preachers that it’s like shooting fish in a barrel...

Just listen to these guys who teach and preach it already... :-)

Besides, it’s not on my good looks or teaching that anyone should be concerned about these things. Take it on their good looks (LOL...) and teaching and preaching. I don’t even have a church to pastor... :-)


38 posted on 04/22/2009 6:16:25 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler
Probably qualifies by God’s judgment for those who are due to be taken out of this world, before they are fully in control of Satan’s lies and doctrines of demons...

Another futurist pipe dream. First you call it heresy, then you make excuses.

Perhaps one of your dispie mentors has a page to help you out.

39 posted on 04/22/2009 6:17:23 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Star Traveler
No use in reinventing the wheel when almost all of Evangelical Christianity and pastors will do it already... LOL... Heck! It’s so easy gathering all these teachers and preachers that it’s like shooting fish in a barrel...

Hitchcock et al are not here to debate. If you want to stand in, go right ahead. Make your case if you can.

40 posted on 04/22/2009 6:18:31 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

Well..., talk about that, here’s another teacher/pastor who can educate you, too... LOL...

Classes taught by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

In February of 2008 Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum visited Austin Bible Church and blessed us with a study on Prophecy and the Jew. The notes and audio files from these classes are available for download here.

The Six Abodes of Satan

The Jews and the Tribulation

Christ in the Passover

The Basis of the Second Coming

The Campaign of Armageddon

Can the Jews be Destroyed

http://www.austinbiblechurch.com/fruchtenbaum.asp

Have fun listening... :-)


41 posted on 04/22/2009 6:20:20 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: topcat54

They do it already, on their teaching and preaching... LOL...

Here’s another one for you... to listen to, if it won’t give you a heart attack, that is... But, I should warn you, it’s about future prophecies for Israel to be fulfilled and that Israel is still in God’s plan, as a nation before him, and in the future... (ooops..., that’s a “no-no” isn’t it... )

David Hocking
Hope for Today
http://www.davidhocking.org/


42 posted on 04/22/2009 6:23:02 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Lee N. Field
to listen to, if it won’t give you a heart attack,

I listened to and read enough of these off-the-wall dispies type when I was an off-the-wall dispie type. What I discovered was that when I started thinking for myself rather than just swallowing the partly line, the things there were saying did not match up with the Bible.

I suspect that is why you are having a hard time describing what all your gurus are saying. It does not make sense when someone else comes along and brings their ideas into question.

I like folks who can think for themselves and articulate what they believe, as opposed to their gurus.

43 posted on 04/22/2009 6:38:15 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

Talking abuot gurus.. here’s one for you, John Walvoord, about the future of Israel in God’s plan... (ummmm..., you say you don’t believe that??! LOL...)


Chapter III - Israel’s Future As A Nation
By John F. Walvoord

One of the central questions in prophecy relating to Israel is whether Israel has any future as a nation. The question is by no means easily answered because there is a confusing number of answers to the question. These can be itemized as follows: (1) The point of view that denies that Israel exists today and therefore has no future as a nation, as illustrated in the book The Seed of Abraham by Albertus Pieters. In Pieters’ opinion, Israel is nonexistent as either a race or a nation in the ordinary sense of the term. (2) The idea that Israel continues as a race but not as a nation. This concept is illustrated in conservative postmillennialism of the last generation in works like Systematic Theology by Charles Hodge and is held by some contemporary amillenarians such as William Hendriksen in his book And So All Israel Shall Be Saved. (3) The teaching of most premillenarians that Israel has not only continuity as a race, but a future as a nation in the millennial kingdom. This is the normal premillennial approach.

Variations in the statement of these three major points of view abound. The opinion of Albertus Pieters has already been discussed and the evident facts pointing to the continuance of Israel as a race have been stated. The formation of a political state in the Middle East in 1948 bearing the name Israel as well as the continuance of Judaism as a religion seems a sufficient answer to the first point of view. The principal question which remains is whether Israel continues merely as a race without a future or whether it has promises which can be fulfilled only by its continuance as a nation and its revival as a people in the political government of the millennial kingdom.

The Continuance Of The Physical Seed Of Abraham

Though it is allowed by all conservative expositors of Scripture that Abraham had a physical seed, and in particular that Jacob was the father of the twelve tribes of Israel, an examination of this evidence serves to provide a basis for the theological implications which are based upon this fact. To be sure, modern liberals have asserted that the accounts of Abraham and his posterity are only traditional myths, but as this is done only by sweeping denial of the authority of Scripture, it does not require refutation in a discussion with orthodox scholars who accept the inspiration of the Bible. If the record of Scripture is valid, there can be little question concerning the fact that Isaac was born as a son to Abraham and Sarah when they both were past age, by miraculous intervention of God. Nor is there much question concerning the fact that Isaac had the twin boys Esau and Jacob. Much of the content of the book of Genesis deals with the story of Jacob, the birth of the twelve patriarchs, and the beginning of Israel’s history as such. Even unbelievers in Scriptural revelation will acknowledge that the modern Jew is a descendant of Jacob and recognize the historical sequence which has brought Israel to the present hour.

It should also be evident from Scripture and history that Israel is more than just a race. From the time they left Egypt they assumed the proportions of a great nation and, though for a time they lived with little political unity during the period of the judges, there is abundant evidence to sustain the rise of the nation under Saul, David, and Solomon. Their moral deterioration, the Assyrian and Baby-Ionian captivities, and the regathering and restoration of Israel recorded in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah and supported by Zechariah and Malachi provide a setting for the New Testament. When Christ was born, Israel was a nation even though it was under the heel of Roman oppression.

With the destruction of Jerusalem, however, and the scattering of the children of Israel, their national characteristics were blurred for many centuries. It is of tremendous significance, however, that the ties which bound together the race of Israel were of such character that in our modern day the nation Israel has once again returned to its ancient land, established itself as a political state, and is recognized as such by most of the civilized world. In any ordinary meaning of the term, Israel has continued as a nation and is in existence today in that capacity.

The Promises To Israel As A Nation

Much of the evidence which supports the concept of Israel as a nation is bound up in the promises which are given to her which will be discussed later. Sufficient for the present purpose, however, is to point out that the original Abrahamic covenant expressly promised that God would make a great nation out of Abraham’s seed (Genesis 12:9.). To this nation is given the promise of possession of the land, which implies national characteristics.

Relative to the express question concerning the perpetuity of Israel as a nation, the promise given to Abraham in Genesis 17:7, 8 is of special importance. Here the covenant with Abraham is declared to be an everlasting covenant, and the land is promised to Israel as an everlasting possession. It would be of course impossible for the covenant to be everlasting and the possession of the land to be everlasting unless the nation also continued forever. The Hebrew expression for “everlasting” is olam, meaning “in perpetuity.” While it might not quite be the equivalent of the infinite term “everlasting,” it would certainly mean continuance as long as this present earth should last. It is the strongest expression for eternity of which the Hebrew language is capable. Inasmuch as these promises are reiterated to Isaac and to Jacob and are constantly referred to throughout the Old Testament, the nature of these promises confirms the continuance of Israel as a nation.

The matter of Israel’s regathering, judgment, and restoration still to be fulfilled will be the subject of later discussion, and only can be anticipated here. It follows, however, that if the Scriptures teach Israel is to be regathered, brought back to their ancient land, and actually possess the area promised by God to Abraham in Genesis 15:18-21, these predictions in their very character would demand Israel’s continuance as a nation. Inasmuch as these promises do not rest on a few isolated texts, but on hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament which directly or indirectly anticipate a future day of glory for Israel, it is hardly too much to say that there are few doctrines that are better attested in the Bible than that of the future of Israel, provided that these prophecies are interpreted in their normal and literal sense.

The Express Promises Of Israel’s Perpetuity As A Nation

In addition to the strong predictions of Genesis 17, the most pointed pronouncements are made elsewhere in the Old Testament concerning Israel’s continuance as a nation. One of these, which should be decisive in itself, is that expressed by Jeremiah at a time of Israel’s apostasy and captivity. In this context of Israel’s disintegration Jeremiah predicts a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31) which will replace God’s covenant with them in the Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32). After defining the millennial situation in which this covenant will be fulfilled for the nation Israel, Jeremiah adds this word of assurance: “Thus saith Jehovah, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; Jehovah of hosts is his name: If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith Jehovah: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith Jehovah” (Jeremiah 31:35-37).

In view of the fact that some amillenarians contend that the Abrahamic promise concerning Israel is conditioned on their obedience and therefore is set aside upon disobedience, it is most significant that this strongest prophecy in the Old Testament for the continuance of Israel is given in a setting when Israel is manifestly in apostasy and about to be carried off into captivity. It would be difficult to provide a setting anywhere which would make it clearer that this is God’s sovereign purpose entirely apart from Israel’s worthiness and the fulfillment is determined solely by God’s power and will. As long as the sun and moon endure and as long as the heavens have not been measured, Israel will continue as a nation. The divine purpose to continue the nation Israel is supported by the continuance of these elements of natural creation as long as the present earth exists. It is not simply that they will continue as a seed, but as Jeremiah expresses it, Israel shall not cease “from being a nation before me for ever.”

The promise of Israel’s perpetuity in the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 is supported by the provisions which are itemized: (1) It is designated a covenant with “the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” The covenant is therefore limited to the descendants of Jacob. (2) It is a covenant designed to replace the Mosaic covenant also made only with Israel. As such it will be written “in their hearts” rather than on tables of stone. (3) The fulfillment of the covenant may be expected after “the time of Jacob’s trouble” mentioned in Jeremiah 30:7. Jeremiah predicted in 31:28: “And it shall come to pass that, like as I have watched over them to pluck up and to break down and to overthrow and to destroy and to afflict, so will I watch over them to build and to plant, saith Jehovah.” The time of fulfillment is further identified as the time of Israel’s regathering, indicated in Jeremiah 30:10 and Jeremiah 31:8 and following. (4) The time of its fulfillment is described as a period when there will be universal knowledge of the Lord. Jeremiah speaks of this in these words: “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah, for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah” (Jeremiah 31:34).

Isaiah referred to this same time in Isaiah 11:9 when he predicted: “For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.” This was an especially strong prediction in view of the fact that both Isaiah and Jeremiah lived in a day when ignorance of the Lord prevailed and apostasy characterized Israel. The new covenant therefore is related to the future day of Israel’s glorious kingdom on the earth. (5) The period of its fulfillment will be one of great spiritual blessing. God will be publicly identified with Israel, and Israel will be God’s people. Their sins will be forgiven, and they will be the beneficiaries of God’s wonderful grace. It should be obvious to any student of premillennial interpretation that all of these prophecies fit naturally and easily into the context of the millennial hope.

The new covenant is frequently mentioned elsewhere in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 61:8, 9, in a similar context speaking of Israel’s tribulation followed by regathering and blessing, it is affirmed that the covenant will be everlasting. Jeremiah himself reaffirms the covenant in 32:37-40 and mentions its everlasting character and fulfillment in the time of Israel’s regathering.

The Prophet Ezekiel repeats all the familiar elements found in earlier statements of the covenant, namely that Israel is to be regathered, to be reunited in one kingdom, to be ruled by one king, is to be forgiven and cleansed from idolatry, and will dwell forever in the land of their covenant of peace (Ezekiel 37:21-28). God is going to be present with them, and Israel will be known all over the world as a nation blessed of God.

Because these prophecies interpreted in their normal and natural way would unmistakably affirm the premillennial interpretation of prophecy, amillenarians deny these conclusions and usually hold that the new covenant as given to Israel is being fulfilled by the church today. Though this is quite foreign to the Old Testament presentation, they claim that the New Testament authorizes this transfer of promises from the nation to the church and that particulars such as the coming time of tribulation, regathering of Israel, their re-establishment in the land, their being ruled by one king, and being united as one nation must be interpreted spiritually as being fulfilled in the gathering out of the church from all nations into the one body of Christ. Before turning to other New Testament evidence confirming the continuance of Israel as a nation, attention must be directed to this amillennial interpretation of the new covenant.

There are five references in the best texts of the New Testament in which the term new covenant (kaine diatheke) is found (Luke 22:20; I Corinthians 11:25; II Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 8:8; 9:15). In addition there are several other references which are properly within the sphere of this study as referring to the new covenant without the precise words being used (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Romans 11:27; Hebrews 8:10, 13; 10:16; 12:24). It is, of course, hardly possible to treat the subject adequately without a more prolonged discussion than can be undertaken here. A more complete presentation is afforded in The Millennial Kingdom, chapter 18, by the writer, and in Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost’s Things to Come, chapter 8.

In regard to Israel’s continuance as it relates to the new covenant, it is significant that only one passage specifically identifies the new covenant with that spoken of by Jeremiah. This is found in Hebrews 8. It is not too much to say that amillenarians who are careful scholars consider this passage one of the most important in their argument identifying the church with Israel.

The argument of Hebrews at this point is that Jesus Christ as our High Priest has a more excellent ministry and is the Mediator of a better covenant providing better promises than that of the Aaronic priesthood built on the Mosaic covenant. This is stated in Hebrews 8:6: “But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.” The writer of Hebrews then proceeds to prove this by quoting the new covenant of Jeremiah as demonstrating that the Mosaic covenant was faulty and needed to be replaced. He states in verse 7: “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.” He continues by quoting Jeremiah’s new covenant with the words: “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.” Verses 9 through 12 are a quotation from the provisions of the new covenant given in Jeremiah 31. The writer of Hebrews then concludes in verse 13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.”

The interpretation of this quotation as it relates to the new covenant is complicated by the fact that conservative scholars have no less than five differing points of view, one of which is the amillennial interpretation. Briefly stated, these five positions are these: (1) The postmillennial interpretation that the promise of future blessing for the Jews will be fulfilled in the people of Israel in the latter days of the period of the church on earth when the Jews are converted and accept Christ as Saviour. This was typical of the conservative postmillennialism of the nineteenth century. (2) That the new covenant in both the Old and New Testaments concerns Israel and Israel alone and has no relationship specifically to Gentiles or the church. This was the viewpoint of Darby and is one of several premillennial approaches. (3) That the new covenant has a twofold application to the church in the present age and to Israel in the future millennial age. This view was popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible. (4) That there are in fact two new covenants, one for Israel to be fulfilled in the future, one for the church to be fulfilled in the present age, both founded upon the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ. This view was supported by Lewis Sperry Chafer in his Systematic Theology and by Charles Ryrie in his book, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith. (5) The amillennial position that the church is true Israel and that the prophecies given to Jeremiah and other prophets are being fulfilled in the church age in a spiritualized way.

The postmillennial point of view has been largely discarded with a defunct postmillennialism and does not figure prominently in current eschatological discussions. Interpreters usually choose either between the amillennial point of view or one of the three premillennial interpretations. Darby’s teaching that the new covenant both in the New and Old Testaments concerns Israel alone is not usually accepted by premillenarians, though it has many attractive arguments. The principal difficulty is that the Lord’s Supper seems to relate a new covenant to the church which makes it difficult to confine the term to Israel’s future. Usually the choice is between Scofield’s position or that of Chafer in premillennial circles. For the purpose of our present discussion relative to the perpetuity of the nation Israel, it will suffice to show that the amillennial point of view is not that which is taught in Hebrews, though there are problems that remain in the premillennial understanding of this passage.

Oswald Allis defines the amillennial interpretation in these words: “For the gospel age in which we are living is that day foretold by the prophets when the law of God shall be written in the hearts of men (Jeremiah 31:33) and when the Spirit of God abiding in their hearts will enable them to keep it (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26f)” (Prophecy and the Church, p. 42). He argues that the quotation before us in Hebrews 8 is a clear and unmistakable statement to this effect. Allis writes: “The passage speaks of the new covenant. It declares that this new covenant has already been introduced and that by virtue of the fact that it is called ‘new’ it has made the one which it is replacing ‘old,’ and that the old is about to vanish away. It would be hard to find a clearer reference to the gospel age in the Old Testament than in these verses in Jeremiah” (ibid., p. 154). An examination of the passage in Hebrews, however, does not support what Allis claims. Though the writer quotes the entire new covenant as given by Jeremiah, in his exegesis he uses only one word, namely, the word new. His argument in brief is based on the fact that Jeremiah predicted a new covenant in the Old Testament. This prediction proved that the Mosaic covenant was not intended to be an everlasting covenant and would in fact be done away. He does not say that Jeremiah’s covenant is in effect now. While the New Testament in other passages alludes to the covenant of Jeremiah as in the quotation in Hebrews 10:16 and states that Jesus is the Mediator of a new covenant in Hebrews 12:24, nowhere in the New Testament is the church specifically put under the detailed provisions of the covenant of Jeremiah. The normal premillennial interpretation therefore considers these references (1) as an application of the general truth of the grace of God illustrated in the new covenant with Israel but also of the church, or (2) as two new covenants, one for Israel and one for the church. The problem yields to the patient exegesis of all passages relating to this subject in the New Testament, but even the New Testament, as in Romans 11:27, refers the detailed fulfillment of the covenant of Jeremiah to the second coming of Christ and the deliverance of Israel, a passage which amillenarians characteristically avoid as the plague. The amillennial point of view is the most extreme of the five possible viewpoints and is not supported by a careful study of the new covenant in the New Testament.

A study of further particulars in the New Testament related to the question of Israel’s continuity serves to confirm that the word Israel is used in the New Testament in the same sense as in the Old and that promises to Israel continue to be inviolate, including their future restoration.

Amillenarians, while denying any future to Israel as a nation, are, however, divided as to whether Israel continues as a race. Allis follows the traditional amillennial approach in making Israel and the church one and the same as far as New Testament teaching is concerned. More recently amillenarians of both conservative and liberal backgrounds have tended to regard Israel as something distinct from the church. William Hendriksen, for instance, a well-known amillenarian, takes the position that Israel means Israel in the New Testament, not the church. In a similar way Charles Hodge, the postmillenarian of the last generation, held that the term Israel is never used in the New Testament except for those who were physical descendants of Jacob. It would seem in view of the fact that some amillenarians and postmillenarians concede that Israel means Israel in the New Testament it would be unnecessary to debate this point. However, in view of the evidence that many amillenarians consider it, as Allis does, “an almost unprecedented extreme” to insist that Israel actually means Israel (Prophecy and the Church, p. 218), it is necessary to dispose of this point first.

New Testament Evidence

A study of the New Testament demonstrates beyond question that there is a continued contrast between Israel and Gentiles as such throughout the New Testament. Israel as a nation is addressed again and again after the beginning of the New Testament church in such passages as Acts 3:12; 4:8, 10; 5:21,31,35; 21:28, etc. A most significant illustration is Paul’s prayer for Israel that they might be saved found in Romans 10:1 which is a clear reference to the use of the term Israel as a nation outside the church. The term Jews, derived from the tribe of Judah, is also used in I Corinthians 10:32. The argument of Paul in Romans 9 is certainly built on the idea of Israel as a separate nation. He surveys their peculiar promises and privileges in Romans 9:4, 5 and expresses the wish that he himself might be cursed if by this means his brethren, i.e., Israel, could be saved (Romans 9:3, 4).

Not only is Israel regarded as a separate nation, but Gentiles as such are expressly excluded. In Ephesians 2:12: “Ye [Gentiles] were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenant of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.” In the discussion which follows it is important to note that Paul does not indicate that Gentiles come into these promises given to Israel, but rather pictures both Jew and Gentile as being joined in an entirely new entity, namely, the body of Christ. The fact, therefore, that in the New Testament Israel and Gentiles are contrasted to each other is strong evidence that the term Israel continues to mean what it meant in the Old Testament, namely, the descendants of Jacob.

Perhaps more to the point in this discussion is the New Testament contrast between natural Israel and the church. As has been previously pointed out, there is a tendency on the part of some amillenarians to regard the church as the New Testament Israel. The New Testament in continuing the contrast between Israel and the church first of all notes that natural Israel—that is, unsaved Israelites—are not in the church. There is then no teaching that the nation of Israel as such becomes the church as such. Instead the nation Israel is promised a future, and, though this future is largely fulfilled by spiritual Israel, the existence of these promises as distinct from God’s program for the church maintains the difference between the two terms.

A central passage in the New Testament on this point is found in Romans 11 where Paul raises the question that is before us: “I say then, Did God cast off his people?” (Romans 11:1). In his argument which follows he, first of all, answers this question in an absolute negative by asserting that there always has been a remnant of Israel and that there will be a remnant in the future. He notes the fact that the great majority in the nation Israel are spiritually blinded and that their hardness of heart has occasioned God’s turning to the Gentiles in the present age. He anticipates, however, that this is a temporary situation which will be followed by a future blessing of the nation Israel. He states in Romans 11:15: “For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?” He acknowledges that Israel at the present time is broken off from the olive tree or the place of divine blessing, but he predicts a future ingrafting of Israel into “their own olive tree” (Romans 11:24). This is to take place where Israel’s blindness is lifted (Romans 11:25), which will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel’s covenants and their restoration as a nation as indicated in Romans 11:26-32. This extended passage then expressly denies the contention that Israel has no future or continuance as a nation. The hope that is set before is not the hope given to the church which already is in the place of blessing in this present age and has no title to the promises given to Israel of possession of the land and other portions of their predicted future.

Not only is the nation Israel contrasted to the church, but spiritual Israel is contrasted to Gentile Christians who are in the body of Christ. This perhaps is the crux of the entire question, namely, are Gentile Christians ever designated Israelites? The argument of Romans 9:11 where this problem is expressly discussed makes clear that spiritual Israel and Gentile Christians continue to be contrasted. Spiritual Israelites never become Gentiles, and Gentile Christians never become Israelites. The statement of Romans 9:6, “For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel,” does not deny this, but rather indicates that all who are physical descendants of Abraham do not necessarily inherit the spiritual promises. The contrast is between Israel according to the flesh and Israel which is spiritual, rather than a reference to Gentile believers. As has been previously pointed out, Gentile believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham who received the promise of blessing to all nations which was to come through Abraham. This does not mean, however, that they received the promises that came through Jacob to the nation of Israel.

Probably the most important text used by those who attempt to prove that Israel and the church are one is that found in Galatians 6:15, 16, which reads as follows: “For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” It has been argued that the expression “Israel of God” is used here of the church as a whole.

It may be observed first that if this passage does use the term “Israel of God” for the church, it is the only passage in the entire New Testament where there is any evidence in the text for such a conclusion. Seen in the setting of its context, it is by no means the clear assertion that the church is the Israel of God as is sometimes claimed by its proponents. Paul is stating in these closing verses of the epistle to the Galatians the pre-eminence of the cross of Christ before which neither circumcision nor uncircumcision availed. The important fact is that those who trust in Christ who died for them become a new creature quite apart from any rite of circumcision or its lack. Upon those who have thus apprehended the grace of God and have been delivered from the law and its religious regulations, Paul breathes a benediction of peace and mercy. Then he adds, “And upon the Israel of God.” The most natural explanation of this is that Paul is stating that anyone, whether Jew or Gentile, who walks by this rule is worthy of his benediction, but especially is this so for the Israel of God, i.e., Israelites who are the godly remnant of this age, that is, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. The use of the Greek kai is best translated by the word and and only rarely is used in the sense of even as would be required if the term Israel of God is entirely equivalent to the expression “as many as walk by this rule.” The passage does not state that the Israel of God and the church, i.e., the new creation, are coextensive. At the most, such identification is possible, but not probable. Paul’s statement is simply a recognition of his particular interest in Israelites who have come to know Christ and expresses the hope that they would enter into the freedom of grace of which he is such an able exponent in the epistle to the Galatians.

One of the familiar arguments against the continuance of Israel as a nation is the idea that when Israel rejected Christ they failed to meet the necessary conditions for the fulfillment of their promises and are in fact disinherited as far as national promises are concerned. According to this point of view, an Israelite today has only the possibility of entering spiritually into the promises given to the church, not the promises given to Israel as a nation.

This question is largely answered by the materials already presented. The fact of continued recognition of Israel as a nation and the presentation of their future hope in Romans 11 would seem to be a sufficient answer. Two additional passages, however, may be considered.

In Matthew 21:43 Christ said in connection with the parable of the householder: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” A casual examination of this text would seem to indicate the taking away of the kingdom of God from Israel. Even amillenarians, however, have seldom claimed this text, as a careful examination of it indicates quite another conclusion. First, those to whom He was addressing this verse were by no means the total of Israel. He could hardly say to the religious leaders of His day or to those within the hearing of His voice that their unbelief was sufficient to take away Israel’s future hope from the nation as a whole. Second, the question can be raised—To what nation is the kingdom of God going to be given? Certainly no other people or race are any more qualified to receive the kingdom of God than the nation of Israel. Third, what did He mean by the kingdom of God?

This declaration of Christ is understood when it is interpreted as a statement that the scribes and Pharisees who rejected Christ, illustrated in the rejection of the son of the householder in the preceding parable, would never enter into the blessings of the kingdom of God. The term nation here should be understood as a people, i.e., anyone who would bring forth the fruits of faith. Some have interpreted the word nation here as referring to Israel, but to another generation of Israel, namely, the godly remnant of the future. Still others refer it to the church. It is probably better to leave it undefined as referring to any people who meet the conditions. In any case, the passage is not a proper basis for Israel’s disinheritance. The Kingdom, as the sphere of divine blessing, is for all true believers.

A second major text in the New Testament has already been mentioned, namely, the question raised by Paul in Romans 11:1: “Did God cast off his people?” To this Paul gives a categorical negative in the words, “God forbid.” He not only expressly denies that God has cast off Israel, but he argues that this has never been God’s method with His people when they have sinned. While the unbelieving in Israel bore their judgment, as is true even in the present age, there was a continuing program for the godly remnant in Israel as illustrated in the present age as well as in the Old Testament. The argument of Romans 11, which has already been reviewed, comes to a climax in the expression “All Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). This certainly does not mean all the church shall be saved, nor is it simply a reference to all the elect in Israel. It is rather, as many scholars have pointed out, the concept of Israel’s national deliverance at the time of the second coming of Christ at which time they are saved from their persecutors and delivered from physical destruction. The contrast is between the individual salvation of Israel in the present age through faith in Christ and the collective deliverance of Israel at the end of the age.

Summary

In this discussion three points of view concerning Israel’s continuance as a nation have been considered: (1) The view that denies that Israel exists today, and therefore has no future. (2) The concept that Israel continues as a race, but not as a nation. (3) The premillennial interpretation that Israel has not only continuity as a race, but a future as a nation in the premillennial kingdom. It was shown that Israel’s continuance as a nation depended first of all upon the nature of her promises as contained, for instance, in Genesis 17 where the Abrahamic covenant is declared to be everlasting and the land is promised to Israel as an everlasting possession. This was confirmed by the new covenant revealed by Jeremiah in which Israel was promised that it would continue as long as the moon endured. The New Testament interpretation of the new covenant was shown not to shake or alter this clear revelation in the Old Testament. New Testament evidence was cited to prove that Israel as a nation continues throughout the period of New Testament revelation. Israel continues to be addressed as a nation and is distinguished both from Gentries and the church. Both the nation Israel is contrasted to the church as a whole and spiritual Israel is contrasted to Gentile Christians in the body of Christ. Miscellaneous texts and arguments such as Galatians 6:15, 16, Matthew 21:43, and Romans 11, when properly interpreted, would seem to confirm the conclusion that Israel is promised continuance as a nation throughout human history. The faithfulness of God to Israel is a convincing proof that God keeps His word whether to Israel or to the church, and in this we can rest our faith.

http://www.walvoord.com/page.php?page_id=284


44 posted on 04/22/2009 6:41:07 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; topcat54; Lee N. Field
One of the familiar arguments against the continuance of Israel as a nation is the idea that when Israel rejected Christ they failed to meet the necessary conditions for the fulfillment of their promises and are in fact disinherited as far as national promises are concerned. According to this point of view, an Israelite today has only the possibility of entering spiritually into the promises given to the church, not the promises given to Israel as a nation.

Which among us non-dispensationalists has ever argued that the reason that the nation of Israel didn't (won't) receive the land promise was because they rejected Christ?

Did Walvoord truly think that the post-mil/amil crowd ever thought that if the nation of Israel would have accepted Christ as their Messiah then the nation of Israel would have received some Mediterranean real estate? Did Walvoord truly think that the post-mil/amil crowd believe that the nation of Israel could have "met the conditions" to receive some land by not rejected Christ, thus treating OT prophecy as a warning instead of prophecy? Did Walvoord truly think that the post-mil/amil crowd believes that the land promise was actually a promise to an ethnic group for some Mediterranean real estate? Did Walvoord truly think that the post-mil/amil crowd believes that the land promise changed from a land promise into something else because Israel rejected Christ?

Do dispensationalists today learn post-mil/amil eschatology from bunk like this?
45 posted on 04/22/2009 8:31:57 AM PDT by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less a defect than looseness of the bowels" - John Calvin)
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To: Star Traveler

Looks great.

Thanks.


46 posted on 04/22/2009 8:41:18 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54

It’s sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

comforting that The Lord’s Perspective is

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

different from Preterists’ constructions on reality.


47 posted on 04/22/2009 8:42:12 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood

Here’s one for you, for the future significance of Israel in God’s plans (for that future)...

Here is a website page from Dr. David Reagan webpage on Lamb and Lion Ministries, in McKinney, Texas.

This is a page for those who are *left behind* after the Rapture of the Church takes place. At least he is giving some of these “left behind people” something that they can read so they can understand what has happened — and learn how to be saved, per the Scriptures.

That’s a whole lot better than all those denying the Rapture, denying that Israel has any significance in God’s plan for the future, and denying all these things that the Bible tells us is going to happen (yet in the future) from God’s Biblical prophecies given to us... LOL...


Jesus Came
What’s Next?
by Nathan E. Jones

If you are reading this because millions of people have suddenly and mysteriously disappeared, then you are looking for answers to what has happened, why it has happened, and what will be happening next.

What Has Happened

First, as to what has happened — Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has returned.

For 2000 years the Bible has been proclaiming to the world that Jesus would be coming back. Jesus stated in John 14:1, “I will come again.”

Because Jesus has returned, millions of people who have put their faith and trust in Jesus as Savior, accepting His free gift of salvation, have disappeared in an event called the Rapture.

You might be thinking that there was something mysterious in the sudden disappearance of millions of people, but the Bible has already explained this so-called mystery. Jesus said that when He came again, He would come for those who are saved. He said, “I will receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:1-4). The Apostle Paul put it this way: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

The Rapture happened to those of us who accepted Jesus as Savior, both those alive and those who had died since Jesus was resurrected. Both groups — living and resurrected believers — were caught up to be with Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

This all happened very quickly, like a flash of lightning. Jesus left as suddenly as He came, taking those who have accepted Him and His salvation, and leaving behind those who have rejected Him. And you, sadly, have been left behind.

Well, maybe you know a loved one who has disappeared — a wife, a husband, a child, a friend — and are wondering what has become of them. In that flash, as those who had accepted Jesus as their Savior were caught up to meet Jesus in the air, they traded their earthly bodies for bodies that are perfect, imperishable and immortal (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55).

They sit with Jesus now in Heaven at a great banquet called the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (Revelation 19). They will live in great joy and know no sorrow. They will be with their King and live in love forever. They are well taken care of, and you don’t have to worry about them.

Why It Has Happened

But, it is the why of the disappearances that is your cause to worry. For believers in Jesus were taken out of this world to spare them from the great wrath that has just begun to befall the planet (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9).

Jesus’ return for all His true believers was just a prelude to His final Second Coming. The second phase of Jesus’ return is to set up His Kingdom on earth. Jesus’ Kingdom is why this whole thing is happening.

You see, we have come to the end of one age and will soon be beginning the age of Jesus’ glorious reign right here on earth. But first, God has to deal with rebellion — sin — before setting up His Kingdom. God’s going to use this intermediate time period you now live in to pour out His wrath on mankind for its continued refusal to accept His Lordship. The time you live in is called the Tribulation.

What It’s About

What is the Tribulation all about? The unparalleled horror of the Tribulation is spelled out in detail in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament. Isaiah wrote that it will be a day of “the terror of the Lord” when “the pride of men will be abased” (Isaiah 2:10,17,19). Zephaniah proclaimed that it will be a “day of wrath,” “a day of trouble and distress,” and “a day of destruction and desolation.” Men will stumble around like they are blind and “their blood will be poured out like dust” (Zephaniah 1:15,17).

This dreary picture is echoed in the New Testament. Jesus said it will be a time of tribulation “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” In fact, Jesus said it will be so terrible that if it were not stopped at the end of seven years, it would result in the destruction of all life (Matthew 24:21-22).

The Apostle John states that the chaos will be so great that the leaders of the world will crawl into caves and cry out for the rocks of the mountains to fall upon them (Revelation 6:15-16).

Why is there going to be such carnage? How could a God of grace, mercy and love allow such an outbreak of unbridled terror and bloodshed?

One reason is to satisfy the justice of God. Yes, God is characterized by grace, mercy and love. God is a God of love. Jesus says so in John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

But, God is also a God of justice. The Bible also says in John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” It is God’s very nature to love, but also in love to see justice done for evil.

What Comes Next

So, what comes next? For starters, people are going to try to explain away the Rapture with all sorts of wild theories, like possibly Global Warming or UFOs. So-called “Christian” leaders are going to come out and say the Church is still around because they didn’t disappear.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 that they cannot be believed, for the times will be filled with false religious teachers. The greatest of these false teachers the Bible calls the False Prophet, and he will seemingly be able to do many miracles and will promote a one-world religion and leader (Revelation 13:11).

Amid all the chaos from the Rapture, the Bible teaches that the world will turn to a dynamic leader to bring order and peace (Revelation 6:1-2). He will succeed where no other person has been able in establishing a peace treaty for Israel (Daniel 9:27). That treaty marks the official beginning of the 7 years that the Tribulation will last.

But, the world leader, known to believers in Jesus as the Antichrist, is anything but peaceful. He will plunge the planet into nuclear world war, resulting in terrible famines, pestilence and mass death. Violence, disease and starvation will be a way of life. A quarter of the world population — almost 2 billion people — will die from this war (Revelation 6).

In Jerusalem, 2 men will appear and preach there for 3 1/2 years that Jesus is the Messiah the Jews have been looking for (Revelation 11:3). 144,000 Jews will call Jesus their Messiah and also preach about Him throughout the whole world. Millions will accept Jesus as their Savior — hopefully you will be one of them. But, many of those millions of believers will be killed by the Antichrist for not pledging their loyalty to him by receiving his mark on either their right hand or forehead. The persecution of believers in Jesus will be awful in the Tribulation (Daniel 7:22; Revelation 7).

Next, the greatest earthquake the world has yet experienced will devastate the planet (Revelation 6:12-14). Something falling from space will then burn up a third of all the world’s vegetation. A second item from space, probably a meteor, will crash into the ocean and annihilate a third of the world’s marine life and ships. A third object from space will taint the world’s water supply, poisoning millions (Revelation 8:7-11).

The devastation to the atmosphere will block out most of the sun and moonlight so that the days appear shorter (Revelation 8:12).

Next, some supernatural “woes” will befall mankind. First, the holding place for a demonic hoard is opened and millions of locust-looking demons pour out and sting people like scorpions. The pain will last 5 whole months. Second, 200 million riders on horse-creatures will burn and impale, wiping out a remaining third of the people (Revelation 9:1-19).

Three and a half years into the Tribulation will see the 2 men witnessing in Jerusalem killed, but 3 1/2 days later come back to life (Revelation 11:7-12). It will also see the Antichrist supposedly killed and appear to come back to life as well (Revelation 13:3).

And that’s just the first half of the Tribulation. As bad as the first half of the seven years is, the next half is even worse (Revelation 16).

Those who take the Antichrist’s loyalty mark on their hand or forehead will suffer from painful boils. Those who don’t take the mark will be cut off from commerce and hunted down, but the Bible assures (Revelation 20:4-6) that those who take the mark have made a decision that will last forever — eternal damnation — so don’t take it!

The oceans and everything in them are totally destroyed, as well as all the fresh water. The heat from the sun will become scorching. The Antichrist’s kingdom will fall into pitch darkness.

An even greater earthquake than the one 7 years earlier will flatten the earth and 100 pound hailstones will crush the inhabitants.

The Euphrates River in Iraq will dry up and a massive army from the East will cross and enter the Valley of Armageddon in Israel to fight the Antichrist’s army. This is what the Book of Revelation calls the battle of Armageddon.

It is the moment that Jesus will gloriously return with all those who disappeared in the Rapture. Jesus Himself by just speaking will destroy the armies at Armageddon. Jesus will throw the Antichrist and the False Prophet into Hell, and Satan into a deep pit. Jesus will be victorious and all who continued to rebel will be put to death — all of them (Revelation 19:11-21; 20:1-3). This is the Tribulation — the wrath of God.

What You Can Do

Now, you may be asking “God, why didn’t you tell us all this before the Rapture so we could get ready.” Well, He did. The Bible clearly teaches that God never pours out His wrath without warning for He is a just and loving God who does not wish that any should perish. That is why God provided the Bible, the Good News about Jesus spreading across the planet, and the many signs alerting us to the fact that we were living on the threshold of the Tribulation and soon return of Jesus Christ. God gave the world every possible chance for 2000 years to repent of its rebellion and return to Him.

But, it’s not too late for you to be with Jesus unless you’ve taken the mark. You see, this story has a happy ending. Jesus’ return at the end of the Tribulation means great joy to those who love him. Jesus will cleanse the world of evil and the damages from His wrath and restore the planet to pristine condition. Jesus will rule from Jerusalem over those who throughout human history have put their faith and trust in Him (Revelation 20:4-6,9).

You can be one of those people. Whether you die in the Tribulation or not, it is where you end up eternally that truly matters. Everybody who does not accept Jesus as Savior during the Tribulation will go to Hell for their rebellion. Anyone who accepts Jesus as Savior, though their earthly bodies may die during the Tribulation, will then live forever in glorified bodies with Jesus in His love and glory.

Remember Jesus’ promise in John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” Pray now for forgiveness for your sins and ask Jesus to be the Savior and Lord of your life. Don’t delay!

In what little time you have in this life, get a Bible or download one from Bible.org, so you know God’s will for your life. Download this and everything you can from our website at lamblion.com or others like raptureready.com so you can know more about Jesus and what is in store for you in the Tribulation and the glorious return of Jesus. Gather quickly with others who have accepted Jesus as Savior for support and to worship together.

If you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, we will be waiting for you on the other side of this. May God bless you and keep you. Maranatha!

“The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him.” (Nahum 1:7 NIV)

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_second10.php


48 posted on 04/22/2009 8:42:51 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: topcat54

Nice try at being a sit down comedian.


49 posted on 04/22/2009 8:42:54 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Star Traveler
Yeah, yeah... I read it before. I even had a laugh over at the website selling notes to loved ones "left behind." The article you posted in that reply is neither here nor there wrt the questions I asked.

Do you think, as Walvoord seemed to, that us non-dispies believe "that when Israel rejected Christ they failed to meet the necessary conditions for the fulfillment of their promises and are in fact disinherited as far as national promises are concerned"?
50 posted on 04/22/2009 8:50:59 AM PDT by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less a defect than looseness of the bowels" - John Calvin)
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