Posted on 05/05/2009 8:09:08 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
I guess the Army is officially Islamic.
Would you rather bow to Allah than to stand for Jesus?
Maybe you’d rather bow before Allah. I’m not willing to do that. I’d rather be killed by a terrorist than to bow to their God.
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Amen and Amen. Not just Allah but ANY ‘god’, including King Zero and his religion of socialism.
I believe you haven't given a complete picture of that infringment, Jude.
A commander cannot just up and shoot one of our soldiers between the eyes....he cannot even do that with the enemy in certain circumstances.
A commander cannot just up and confine a soldier without due process and/or military necessity.
A commander cannot just up and take away political speech except in certain circumstances.
You are making a commander sound like a dictator, and they are not that. They are men commissioned by the nation to accomplish a military mission, and within certain parameters they can establish the times and locations of the exercise of rights.
They cannot take away the religious rights of soldiers. The very presence of a chaplain is a sign that Congress has determined that such rights cannot be removed. That is why the chaplain exists and why he has survived constitutional challenges.
Can an Afghani Christian in the US military possess an Afghani bible?
Can a US Christian in the US military possess an English bible?
The answers to those questions should give some indication of how incomplete a picture you have painted.
I also notice that it says "proselytizing OF" instead of proselytizing "by".
I also note that it doesn't mention religious use of communion alcohol as a specific exception.
CCJAGENERAL ORDER NUMBER IB (GO-IB)
2. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES:
a. Purchase, possession, use, or sale of privately owned firearms, ammunition, explosives, or the introduction of these items into the USCENTCOM AOR.
b. Entrance into a Mosque or other site of Islamic religious significance by non-Moslems unless directed to do so by military authorities, required by military necessity, or as part of an official tour conducted with the approval of military authorities and the host nation. This provision may be made more restrictive by Commanders when the local security situation warrants.
c. Introduction, purchase, possession, sale, transfer,manufacture or consumption of any alcoholic beverage within the countries of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq. In all other countries of the USCENTCOM AOR, U.S.military and civilian personnel will conform to their respective component restrictions on alcohol, and maintain appropriate deportment by respecting host-nation laws and customs. In order to maintain good order and discipline and ensure optimum readiness, in all locations where alcohol is not prohibited by this General Order, Commanders and unit chiefs are directed to exercise discretion and good judgment in promulgating and enforcing appropriate guidelines and restrictions. Guidelines should recognize that in some countries although alcohol consumption may be legal within certain facilities such as hotels, personnel, upon any consumption, may be presumed to beunder the influence upon leaving the facility or upon operatinga motor vehicle (e.g., Qatar, UAE),. Alcohol consumptionguidelines and restrictions should be regularly reviewed toensure that they are commensurate with current or foreseenoperations, threats and host country actions.
d. Introduction, purchase, possession, use, sale, transfer,manufacture, or consumption of any controlled substances.Prescription drugs must be accompanied by the originalprescription label which identifies the prescribing medicalfacility or authority.
e. Introduction, purchase, possession, transfer, sale,creation, or display of any pornographic or sexually explicitphotograph, video tapes or CDs, movie, drawing, book, magazine,or similar representation. The prohibitions contained in thissubparagraph shall not apply to AFRTS broadcasts and commercialvideotapes distributed and/or displayed through AAFES or MWRoutlets located within the USCENTCOM AOR. This prohibition alsoshall not apply within the areas exclusively under thejurisdiction of the United States, such as aboard United StatesGovernment vessels and aircraft, which shall remain subject toservice rules.
f. Photographing or filming detainees or human casualties,as well as the possession, distribution, transfer, or posting,whether electronically or physically, of visual images depictingdetainees or human casualties, except as required for officialduties. "Human Casualties" are defined as dead, wounded orinjured human beings, to include separated body parts, organsand biological material, resulting from either combat or non-combat activities. This prohibition does not apply to thepossession of such visual images acquired from open mediasources (e.g., magazines and newspapers), nor is thedistribution of these unaltered images, subject to copyrightmarkings or notices. Additionally, possession and distributionof open media source images is not prohibited if required forofficial duties. Finally, with their express consent, thephotographing and possession of images of wounded personnelwhile within medical facilities and during periods of recoveryis also not prohibited.
g. Gambling of any kind, including sports pools, lotteriesand raffles, unless permitted by host-nation laws and applicableservice component regulations.
h. Removing, possessing, selling, defacing or destroyingarcheological artifacts or national treasures. (See also 2.m.(3)below).i. Selling, bartering or exchanging any currency other thanat the official host-nation exchange rate.
j. Adopting as pets or mascots, caring for, or feeding anytype of domestic or wild animal.
k. Proselytizing of any religion, faith or practice.
1. Taking or retaining of public or private property of anenemy or former enemy, except as granted by applicable USCENTCOMwaivers and as noted below: (1) Individual War Souvenirs may only be acguired ifspecifically authorized by USCENTCOM. Absent such expressauthorization, no weapon, munitions, or military article ofequipment obtained or acquired by any means other than officialissue may be retained for personal use or shipped out of theUSCENTCOM AOR for personal retention. (2) Private or public property may be seized duringexercises or operations only on order of the Commander, whenbased on military necessity.(a) Private property will be collected,processed, secured and stored for later return to thelawful owner. The wrongful taking of private property,even temporarily, is a violation of Article 121,Uniform Code of Military Justice.(b) Public property lawfully seized by U.S. ArmedForces is the property of the United States. Thewrongful retention of such property is a violation ofArticle 108, Uniform Code of Military Justice. Unitretention of historical artifacts must be specificallyapproved by USCENTCOM. (3) This prohibition on acquiring the property of anenemy or former enemy applies to enemy war materiel even if suchmateriel could be lawfully purchased through commercial orprivate means. Such items can only be acquired as Individual WarSouvenirs and then only to the extent specifically authorized.This prohibition does not preclude the lawful acquisition ofother items as tourist souvenirs if such items can be legallyimported into the United States.
3. PUNITIVE ORDER: Paragraph 2 of this General Order ispunitive. Persons subject to the UCMJ may be punishedthereunder. Civilians serving with, employed by, oraccompanying the Armed Forces of the United States in theUSCENTCOM AOR may face criminal prosecution or adverseadministrative action for violation of this General Order. Inthe case of contingency contractors, DOD Instruction 3020.41,dated October 3, 2005, provides guidance on administrativeactions.
4. INDIVIDUAL DUTY: All persons to whom this General Order isapplicable are charged with the individual responsibility toknow and understand the prohibitions contained herein. All suchpersons are further charged with the responsibility to becomefamiliar with and respect the laws, regulations, and customs oftheir host nation insofar as they do not interfere with theexecution of their official duties. Acts of disrespect orviolations of host nation laws, regulations and customs may bepunished under applicable criminal statutes and administrativeregulations.
5. UNIT COMMANDER RESPONSIBILITY: Commanders, SecurityAssistance Office Chiefs, and military and civilian supervisorsare charged with ensuring that ALL PERSONNEL are briefed on theprohibitions and requirements of this General Order. Commandersmay further restrict their forces as they deem necessary.
6. CONFISCATION OF OFFENDING ARTICLES: Items determined toviolate this General Order may be considered contraband bycommand or law enforcement authorities if found in the USCENTCOMAOR. Before destruction of contraband, Commanders or lawenforcement personnel will coordinate with their servicing judgeadvocate. Military customs and other pre-clearance officialswill enforce this General Order in their inspections ofpersonnel prior to departure from the AOR and return to CONUS.
7. EFFECTIVE DATE: This General Order is effectiveimmediately. GO-1A, dated 19 Dec 00, as amended on 30 Nov 01and 9 Aug 03, and all waivers granted pursuant to GO-1A, arehereby rescinded and superseded. USCENTCOM Policy Memo
>However, before the bibles were destroyed Al-Jazeera got photos and now they are being used to prove America is fighting a “holy war”.
The proper response: These bibles are obviously for our own Arabic-literate troops, or troops who wish to become [arabic-]literate.
>Your entire post 118 has got to rank near the top of the list as most illogical, irrational, misguided, and angry posts with zero scriptural validity I have ever read on FR. I think we should take a break before you explode.
Actually he is correct in that these policies are in contradiction to the first amendment, or dangerously so... for to bar OR give approval to one religion or another in that sort of manner is to utterly discount the intent of the first amendment in keeping the state from telling you what you must believe.
In other words, this directive/policy/order is to religion what domestic-violence/sexual-harassment/rape suits are to men; a blatantly unjust situation where the outcome is, generally, pre-decided with no real investigation into the facts of the case. (Case-in-point: Duke Lacrosse players...)
Also, he needs no scriptural back-up/reference because he is arguing from the Constitutionalists-perspective. Your allegation would be akin to trying to refute my claim of “Congress shouldn’t pass laws targeting certain people.” by saying that I don’t have any scriptural validity there; despite that is EXACTLY what a Bill of Attainder is.
No, but are you trying to imply something?
The proper response: These bibles are obviously for our own Arabic-literate troops, or troops who wish to become [arabic-]literat
As I understand the situation that would be a misrepresentation of why the bibles were sent.
Actually he is correct in that these policies are in contradiction to the first amendment
These bibles were voluntarily turned over by this soldier to his chain of command for them to be handled as they saw fit. So exactly whose first amendment rights were violated and how?
Additionally just what the hell is "Proselytizing of any religion, faith or practice." supposed to mean? How can a Bible violate that rule?
Every Christian knows that no soldier is capable of Proselytizing, as that is the prerogative of the Holy Spirit. Only God can convert a Muslim to Christianity. No Christian is capable of that feat.
This whole episode stinks to high heaven. The fact that our Military bows to Islam just fries my @$$. Can anyone show me where the Army has confiscated any English Korans brought in by Muslims? Why is an Afghanistan language Bible proselytizing and an English Koran is not?
The simple answer to all these questions is that the Military has established Islam as a favored religion among the troops in Afghanistan. That is a clear unconstitutional violation of the first amendment. This GO#1 is not narrowly tailored (as is required for any exception to strict adherence to the first amendment) and is on its face unconstitutionally vague and unequally applied.
You are absolutely correct that that particular version of GO#1 (If it hasn’t been updated) has zero prohibition of Afghani bibles in it.
Nor does it require that any such bibles be destroyed.
Therefore, no soldier could be punished for an Afghani bible.
And, yes...there are Christians in Afghanistan. (But they don’t hang out shingles.) I agree that only God can convert anyone.
And then they need Bibles -- not to be proselytized, but to be discipled.
Bibles are for Christians.
Burning the Bibles does not stop proselytizing, it stops discipling.
“My goodness. Your entire post 118 has got to rank near the top of the list as most illogical, irrational, misguided, and angry posts with zero scriptural validity I have ever read on FR. I think we should take a break before you explode.”
I agree!
And P-Marlowe, no more pings please. Thank you.
You pinged me.
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