Posted on 05/05/2009 8:09:08 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
I would consider that to be an illegal order at 2 levels.
At the lowest level, it is a violation of the 1st amendment freedom of religion rights of every American. We can argue until we're blue in the face over that, but the text is very clear. "Congress shall make NO LAW regarding an establishment of religion or DENYING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF."
Now, if you are a 2d amendment gun nut like I am, then those 1st amendment words mean what they say OR we are dead wrong about the 2d amendment.
Religion is far more than sitting in a pew listening to some talking head mouth his opinions on a holy book followed by singing.
The very HEART of Christianity for evangelical Christians is the MISSION that Jesus gave. It is not called the GREAT COMMISSION for nothing. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature..." And don't say this doesn't apply to soldiers because Centurion Cornelius didn't quit soldiering.
The highest level of illegal ordering, therefore, is that this forces many Christians to choose between God and Caesar. Like Peter said, "We must obey God and not men."
Since this is an illegal order, soldiers should do 2 things:
a. Work to have it changed.
b. Engage in God's work in the ways and means they find available.
I absolutely agree with that. The same with Iraq.
All along, our best mission should have been a mission of reprisal (mentioned in the Constitution). When completed with lopping off Sadam and sycophants' heads, searching for mass quantities of WMDs, destroying WMD info and capabilities, and leaving a threat that we'd do it again if messed with, we were finished in Iraq. Same with the Taliban in Afghan. The residual mission would've been dropping a HellFire on OsamabinLaden's sleeping quarters.
I agree with what you say but in this instance the soldier who was sent the Bibles did not request them. He carried them to a Chaplin and asked what to do. I can understand his apprehension in passing out Bibles as a soldier because of the ramifications it could have on the non-christian soldiers. For the same reason I understand the military’s position.
General Order 1 gives commanders in the field explicit guidance on what they can and cannot do in theater. It's been around for quite some time. I posted on the other thread that there are usually concessions made for religious services within the perimeter.
But this case shows that there was an intent to take it outside the perimeter by having Bibles printed in the local languages. This would have brought nothing but trouble to our troops if the locals got their panties in a bunch over it.
The problem is that up until 1990 we weren't involved in ME conflicts that brought up the theological conflicts we see now.
Yes P.C. is to blame, but the soldiers are under an obligation of their oath to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over them. If they don't like it or can't follow those orders based on conscience then they should separate from the service.
SZ
You are correct about the facts of this case. This soldier asked the chaplain to deal with the bibles. The chaplain could have retained the bibles or he could have turned them over to his chain of command.
Since they were not his, and since the soldier turning them did own them, the chaplain followed the request of the owner of the books.
Why destroy them? The military, I guess, could have returned them to sender, returned them to the states, destroyed them, or even put them in some kind of storage. I can’t really think of any other options.
In terms of symbols, they probably made the worst choice. I’d counsel them to adopt a policy of “return to sender.”
For evangelical Christians, I’d not be opposed to covert civil disobedience. Told to me in private, such a thing would be confidential, since it would be of a religious nature.
I would argue that it's not a lawful order.
It violates the 1st amendment and, more importantly, it violates God's requirement (for evangelical Christians.)
I can't imagine the military is chomping at the bit to punish a troop for practicing his religion. My advice would be to confiscate and return to sender. For the evangelicals, I'd expect them to obey God's law in their hearts.
Here's the thing about "lawful orders" - if you claim an order is unlawful, you had better be right. General Order 1 is probably not unlawful.
I can't imagine the military is chomping at the bit to punish a troop for practicing his religion.
Nor I. But a soldier who violates General Order 1 by importing religious material for dissemination to the local population will most certainly be counseled and disciplined appropriately.
Harry Reid, is that you?
If the cause we are fighting for in Afghanistan is one in which Bibles are prohibited and Christianity is forbidden, then we have no business there. Our mission was to remove the Taliban from power. We did that seven years ago. We are now propping us a regime that is antithetical to our own notions of Liberty and justice. I think it is time we just packed up and left.
We are propping up a regime that will not allow al Qaeda a base from which to project. Whether or not they follow our American conceptions of liberty is besides the point - the military's job is to preserve **our** way of life, not to export it to every nation.
The reason why I am asking is this: your argument presupposes that nothing is more important to a commander than his soldier's rights. That might be an acceptable approach in a pre-war phase of the conflict. In the context in which our Army finds itself, almost everything is subordinated to the needs of the mission.
A commander in garrison can afford - maybe - to placate the disruptive soldier who wants his unique religious belief mollified. In the optempo in which our soldiers find themselves, this is a headache the field commanders just don't need.
Nor is this a bad thing. The American people aren't paying the salaries of soldiers to fund them on a missions trip. They are paying the soldiers to fight their war.
Somewhere Satan is smiling.
If these had been the damned korans, they would have not received so much as a dirty look.
But it was done and it hastens the day when the Nation is judged by God.
And in the end one reaps what one sows.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
In one of my previous posts, I believe, I reported on Gen Schwarzkopf’s eventually rescinded order that chaplains could not wear their crosses. It was opposed. It was rescinded.
We didn’t even consider it going into Islamic balkan states.
So, the military is not just now discovering the existence of Islam.
I was personally detained for about 3 hours in a Saudi airport for bibles and communion wine I was carrying into country. That was an interesting 3 hours.
From the above article,
Reuters News says the Bibles were confiscated and destroyed after Qatar-based Al Jazeer television showed soldiers at a Bible class on a base with a stack of Bibles translated into the local Pashto and Dari languages. The U.S. military forbids its members on active duty -- including those based in places like Afghanistan -- from trying to convert people to another religion.
Reuters quotes Maj. Jennifer Willis at the Bagram Air Base, north of Kabul, who said "I can now confirm that the Bibles shown on Al Jazeera's clip were, in fact, collected by the chaplains and later destroyed. They were never distributed."
But we are not teaching these people the principles of Liberty and we are instead upholding their principles of tyranny. Once the people have the opportunity to exercise their democratic prerogative, and if they do not respect Liberty, then they will vote themselves tyrants and those tyrants will once again provide a haven for Al Queda or whatever other liberty hating Islamofascist organization comes along with it's goal of the destruction of all things western.
By burning the Bibles, our Military is not preserving our way of life, they are propping up tyrants who will one day turn their wrath upon our way of life. We are a weak nation that burns bibles while prosecuting those who would burn a Koran. The Taliban can see this weakness in us. They will exploit it. If we are not, as a nation, willing to require those who use American blood to provide some semblance of religious liberty to not only their own people, but to the soldiers who are sacrificing their lives, then that county is not worth a bucket of warm spit and Americans ought not to be giving their lives for their cause.
At this point I'm not all that clear about our mission in Afghanistan. I don't think anybody is. But burning bibles is the last straw for me. Any country that would require it, does not deserve to have Christians dying for their country. Those Christians are clearly not dying to give the Afghans liberty or freedom. And eventually the Taliban will regain power. As long as tyranny reigns, tyrants will prosper.
The army made a terrible decision destroying the bibles. They could just as easily have returned them to sender. That would have just as completely removed them from consideration.
They have offended Christians and emboldened muslims.
I do not worship the paper and ink, so I don’t feel the urge to burn down buildings because someone destroys a bible.
Nonetheless, such an act is an IDIOTIC public relations move. Whoever came up with that solution should be soaked in honey and buried in an ant hill. (humor)
We must emphasize that in America we have freedom of religion and just because an American is fighting to preserve Karzai's sorry ass in Afghanistan, that does not give Karzai or anyone else the right to dictate the terms upon which American soldiers will exercise their fundamental right to the free exercise of religion.
My guess is that Karzai might not publicly agree to that, but privately he would have no choice. He would be dead within hours if America packed up and left. We hold the cards and yet we are acting like a bunch of sissies.
Islam can only thrive behind a psychological firewall. Modern technology is breaching that firewall every day — I pray we’ll soon see Islam discredited, on a global scale.
This administration???
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
(I agree with you, but still...)
If we have to burn bibles in order to accomplish whatever mission we have there, then that mission is not worth accomplishing.
Kind of makes one wonder the wisdom of our recent adventures.
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