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Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II
CatholicExchange.com ^ | May 22nd, 2009 | Christopher West

Posted on 06/11/2009 6:02:42 PM PDT by Salvation

Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II

May 22nd, 2009 by Christopher West

In honor of Mary, I’ve chosen to focus my columns this month on what I consider an intriguing connection between the messages of Fatima and John Paul II’s Theology of the Body (TOB). In the previous column, I explained how the assassination attempt on John Paul II was a fulfillment of the "third secret" of Fatima. Coincidentally, the day he was shot – May 13, 1981 – was not only the annual memorial of Fatima, it was also the day he had planned to establish his Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family. Could it be that there were forces at work that did not want John Paul II’s teaching to reach the world?

Part of Mary’s message in Fatima was that "Russia would spread her errors throughout the world." However, "In the end," she said, "my Immaculate Heart will triumph." When we hear of the errors of Russia, we rightly think of the spread of communism. But communism has roots that go deeper than Marxist economic theory.

As most of us learned in school, Marx considered class struggle to be the defining factor of history. But digging deeper, Marx also believed that the fundamental "class struggle" was found in monogamous marriage and, indeed, in the sexual difference itself. "The first division of labor," Marx co-wrote with Friedrich Engels, "is that between man and woman for the propagation of children." In turn, Engels affirmed that Marxist theory "demands the abolition of the monogamous family as the economic unit of society" (see The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State ).

It seems the deeper revolution — and, I would contend, the deeper "error of Russia" — is the one aimed at destroying marriage and the family. Indeed, those who seek to deconstruct sexuality in the modern world often draw straight from Marx. As feminist author Shulamith Firestone wrote in The Dialectic of Sex : "Just as the end goal of socialist revolution was … the elimination of the … economic class distinction itself, so the end goal of feminist revolution must be … the elimination of … the sex distinction itself [so that] genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally." Welcome to the deep-seated sexual confusion in which we’re now immersed.

But here’s the good news: Just as John Paul II’s vision of the human person inaugurated a new kind of revolution that led to the fall of communism, his TOB has also inaugurated a new kind of revolution that will, I believe, lead to the collapse of the dominant sexual ideology.

In his book The Last Secret of Fatima , Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone wrote: "The Communist system seemed invincible, and it looked as if it were going to endure for centuries. But then the whole thing collapsed like a house of cards." Perhaps we can expect the same with the deeper "error of Russia." Indeed, in the Book of Revelation, the "whore of Babylon" — that mysterious feminine figure who mocks the Bride of the Lamb — is brought to ruin in "one hour." And as she collapses, all the merchants who "gained their wealth from her" (think the porn industry, Planned Parenthood, etc.) "weep and mourn" (Rv 18).

And then comes the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Bride who has "made herself ready" for her Bridegroom. She is dressed in "fine linen, bright and immaculate " (Rv 19:7-8). She is "clothed with the sun" (Rv 12:1). This radiant Bride, of course, is personified in Mary. "In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." What does this mean? In short, it means that purity of heart will triumph. Somehow the pornographic lies will be redeemed . All of "Babylon’s" distortions will be untwisted and we will come to see the human body as it really is — as a glorious sign of "the mystery hidden from eternity in God" (TOB 19:4).

By showing us the path to authentic purity (never to be confused with puritanism or prudishness!), John Paul II’s TOB paves the way for Mary’s triumph. Is it a coincidence that John Paul began writing his TOB on the feast of the Immaculate Conception? Is it a coincidence that he devoted the entire work to "Mary, all beautiful?" Is it a coincidence that she saved his life on the memorial of Fatima so that his teaching could reach the world?

Let us pray for the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. It may be closer than we realize. Already in 1994, John Paul wrote that Mary’s words spoken in Fatima "seem to be close to their fulfillment" (Crossinng the Threshold of Hope , p. 221). Let it be, Lord, according to your word.

 

Christopher West is a fellow of the Theology of the Body Institute. His books and tapes on the “Theology of the Body” are available.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; chastity; cult; prolife; promarriage
I forgot to post Part II back in May.
1 posted on 06/11/2009 6:02:42 PM PDT by Salvation
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation

Please back your claims of Mary with biblical authority and then maybe I’ll listen. You have another Mary. Not the one from Holy Scripture.


3 posted on 06/11/2009 6:09:27 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: Salvation
For your information:

Christopher West's Theology of the Body Webiste

Books, tapes, CDs, DVDs, etc.

From book by the same name by Pope John Paul II.

Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II
By His Fruits You Shall Know Him: A Defense of Christopher West

Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part I
Christopher West’s ideas on sexuality ignore ‘tremendous dangers,’ Alice von Hildebrand says
New Theology of the Body Translation released
Teaching the Theology of the Body
Twins, Communion, Civil and Sacramental Marriage and the Theology of the Body

4 posted on 06/11/2009 6:12:29 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: All
Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II
Fatima and Akita
Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part I
The Story of Fatima -- Part 2
The Story of Faitma -- Part 1
Our Lady of Fatima, May 13
Litany of Our Lady of Fatima
Last Fatima child buried in final resting place (Sr. Maria's remains transferred to Fatima)
Sister Lucia, last remaining witness of Fatima apparitions, dies at 97
SISTER LUCIA RIP

LAST OF CHILDREN WHO CLAIMED TO SEE VIRGIN MARY DIES AT 97
Last child who claimed to see "Virgin Mary" dies
Virgin Mary Child Dies (Lucia of Fatima)
Mourning for Fatima seer (Portugal declares day of mourning)
Third Secret of Fatima is not fully revealed.
Sister Lucia, last remaining witness of Fatima apparitions, dies at 97
Sr. Lucia, Fatima, and Islam
Mystery Fatima: Death of Lucia Accents Famed Secrets & Area's Hidden History
"No More Secrets," Visionary Said in 2001 (Sr. Lucia Confirmed Russia Consecrated to Mary)
Papal praise at Sister Lucia's funeral

Our Lady of Fatima, ‘counterrevolutionary’ and ‘ecumenical’
Fatima Statue Due at Vatican to Mark a Fateful Day 25 Years After Attempt on John Paul II's Life
Sister Lucia's Unpublished Writings Released - Visionary Reflects on Marian Apparitions
Sister Lucia's Last Moments
Fatima: Case Closed
Rosary Rallies Planned for Fatima Anniversary [Catholic Caucus]
Giant new church at Fatima shrine
Sister Lucia's Beatification Process to Begin ( Pope Waves 5-Year Waiting Period)
The faithful remember miracle of Fatima, Thousands gather in Washington Twp. on 90th anniversary
Pius XII Saw "Miracle of the Sun" [Catholic Caucus]

5 posted on 06/11/2009 6:17:06 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2270059/posts?page=5#5


6 posted on 06/11/2009 6:18:00 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Salvation
Again, give me Holy Scripture..not writings a about what people think. There is very few my friend. I was raised Catholic and prayed to Mary my whole life. But as I started reading God's Holy Word I saw that I was deceived by my Catholic traditions.

I'm not trying to start a fight with you... but just challenging you to think it out. God's Word my friend is the final authority..not me. I place my trust in God's Word not traditions.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (St. John 16:12,13)

May you ask Almighty God with your whole heart to show you if these things are true or not.

7 posted on 06/11/2009 6:20:44 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Purity and chasity in imitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Luke

8 posted on 06/11/2009 6:21:19 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

You are always welcome to return to the Catholic Church. You only need to sit down and talk with a priest about your questions about men.


9 posted on 06/11/2009 6:23:19 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

**I was deceived by my Catholic traditions.**

You are not deceived. Read Luke. Chapter 2 too.


10 posted on 06/11/2009 6:24:29 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: klossg

Theology of the Body ping, please.


11 posted on 06/11/2009 6:30:46 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Salvation

My friend, I have read it and believe it!

You read it. Read it in the greek..low estate.. the greek is more powerful. it means vile estate...I rejoice in my God my Savior... (she needed as Savior..thus she was a sinner like you and me. Those passages destroy the Catholic position and traditions that they have about a non Biblical Mary.

You must choose what authority to believe tradfition and fables or Holy Scripture authority. I have made my desinion.


12 posted on 06/11/2009 6:53:11 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

She is rejoicing not asking for mercy.


13 posted on 06/11/2009 8:32:51 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Because I do not know Greek I can not verify or clarify your statements, InIg, so I am calling someone who can find the Greek for me.

Here is the English and the Latin:

Canticle of Mary

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition

 

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.


14 posted on 06/11/2009 8:38:46 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Sorry I got your name wrong in that post. I meant to type IgFi


15 posted on 06/11/2009 8:40:25 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Additional information for you to check out on the Magnificat. It is a Song of Praise.

The Prayer of the Virgin Mary, The Magnificat - The Canticle of Mary
MARY SINGS THE PRAISES OF GOD’S MERCY [Magnificat, Canticle of Mary]
The Magnificat: Mary’s Own Prayer
Prayer and Meditation: Magnificat anima mea Dominum
Story of the Little Prayer Book That Could (George Weigel on the Magnificat [magazine])

16 posted on 06/11/2009 8:44:33 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

Can anyone help me out here with the Greek?

17 posted on 06/11/2009 8:46:06 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Salvation
http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=48

gives the Greek word and definition above English translation.

18 posted on 06/11/2009 8:56:23 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Since you are not discussing the Theology of the Body and the purity and chastity urged by our Blessed Mother, perhaps it would be better for you to leave the thread.

Good night.


19 posted on 06/11/2009 9:06:14 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Salvation

Thanks for the ping.

For communism to prevail, atheism must succeed. We cannot have 2 masters. Attacking marriage is the fastest, most efficient way to do this. One cannot help but marvel at the representation of Gods love and existence when contemplating marriage and family. The two becoming one, the one becoming 3. Participation in the miracle of life. Life is what they despise, they embrace death and hatred.

We have come far down that slippery slope. Divorce, contraception, abortion, pornography, living together, homosexual and pedophilia behaviors, the list is endless. The governmental socialistic policies are only the result of the complete and total demise of the family in this country,not the cause of it. It is a symptom of the disease we suffer from. We now care for the broken families left in the aftermath of the successful destruction of the family unit.

There is no other way to repair all of this until we strengthen once again, the family through promotion of the sacrament of marriage, the sanctity of life, and the value of and necessity of the family unit to society.

As to Mary, she too needed a savior, and she had one, Jesus. If God can do anything and is everything, then He is the eternal present. There is no past or future to Him who created time. To limit God to our own understanding is to minimize Him. God allowed Mary’s yes to apply to her soul before she was born to allow her to be the holy ark in which to carry the new covenant, Jesus Christ. Since he could not dwell in sin, he who knew no sin, she was preserved FROM sin, which is why she spoke of her savior. God being in the eternal present already had her yes before all time began. To know that Mary was preserved from sin, being the one human in all time to already be in a state that God had originally intended for us but was broken through Adam, does not put her in the Godhead, but a hopeful representation of our final condition. There is nothing wrong with asking for Mary’s intercession, as the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Her one command in scripture was to “do whatever He tells you”, always deflecting all to her Son. She was given to the apostle whom Jesus loved at the foot of the cross, as any faithful Jewish son would have concerns for his mother. If we are all truly brothers and sisters of Christ, in a REAL true and absolute sense, wouldn’t that make her really and truly our mother as well? I know you see all these things, but I felt the need to speak them on this thread.

God bless you!


20 posted on 06/11/2009 9:31:43 PM PDT by wombtotomb
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

“You must choose what authority to believe tradfition and fables or Holy Scripture authority.”

The New Testament is solely a Catholic document and as such they have the Authority to declare that the New Testament is not a complete record of Christian doctrine. In fact, everything in the New Testament was Sacred Tradition before the Sacred Magisterium of the Catholic Church elevated it as Sacred Scripture. And both the Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition cannot be correctly interpreted without Sacred Magisterium. Those are the facts.

Sacred Scripture:

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Corinthians 11:2)

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)


21 posted on 06/11/2009 10:46:06 PM PDT by bronxville
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To: wombtotomb

“God allowed Mary’s yes to apply to her soul before she was born to allow her to be the holy ark in which to carry the new covenant, Jesus Christ. Since he could not dwell in sin, he who knew no sin, she was preserved FROM sin, which is why she spoke of her savior.”

Yes, because to say otherwise would have our Blessed Mother tainted with the devil while carrying the Son of God thus tainting Our Lord and Savior.


22 posted on 06/11/2009 10:54:25 PM PDT by bronxville
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To: Salvation
I have discussed the Theology (the study of God). No problem my friend.I'll go... Just trying to make you think about things. You had no answers so I must go.. the left uses that tactic alot... They(the religious leaders of Jesus’s day) also did that alot to The Lord Jesus Christ...Away with Him...! St. John 3:18-21,17,19:15

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you (John 15:18) I.F.

23 posted on 06/12/2009 4:26:50 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Ummmm . . . answering the call for a Greek reader here (can't call myself a scholar - only two years of Classical and Homeric in college).

tapeinwsis in my Liddell and Scott is translated as low estate, or spiritual abasement (that's a classical, not a koine, dictionary so it has no theological axe to grind). It appears to derive from the word for "short" as in "low stature". It has a secondary meaning of "low" as in mean or poor - as your grandmother might say, "Don't act like that, it's low!"

So I suppose if you really wanted to stretch a point you could get all the way to "vile", but that's doing violence to the Greek, especially in the context, since the Archangel has just addressed Mary as kecaritwmenh - "completely graced". The verb form is interesting and unique because it implies that this is a 'steady state' and has existed from all time.

It's also interesting if you look at a parallel Greek Testament (there are several on line, from Bible Colleges as well as scholarly sites) there is NO translation that goes for your interpretation of "vile" - all link together "servant" or "handmaiden" and "humility", including Young's Literal Translation - and Young was a Scotch Presbyterian and a Wee Free at that (and a notable scholar in both Hebrew and Greek).

Where did you get the interpretation of tapeinwsis as "vile"? Did you consult a dictionary? Did you read it in a scholarly work? Source, please.

24 posted on 06/12/2009 5:29:13 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman; Salvation
>> Again, give me Holy Scripture..not writings a about what people think.<<

>> You had no answers so I must go<<

Dear Fisherman. I came upon a ping of this thread this morning. In Post #8, Salvation answered your request. In Luke Chapter 1, the beauty of Mary’s role is clearly presented in sacred scripture (and where the prayer of the Rosary comes from):

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.

Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

My prayer (possibly inspired by the Holy Spirit): Dear Fisherman, please do not persist in your ignorance.

25 posted on 06/12/2009 5:49:48 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: AnAmericanMother

BUMP!


26 posted on 06/12/2009 6:13:46 AM PDT by frogjerk (C-NJ)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Thank you. I was aware that the interpretation was in error, but had no background proof.


27 posted on 06/12/2009 8:39:16 AM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman; AnAmericanMother
Thanks to American Mother for her work with your question about the Greek. Given her points, I too would like to see how you translate it as "vile estate".

About your separate issue of "God my Savior", I believe you may find this article on catholic.com helpful. Immaculate Conception and Assumption. Pay close attention to the section "Fundamentalists' Objections". It begins, "Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior."

The main point is that Catholics don't deny that Mary "needed a Savior". The way she was saved was simply different than the rest of us.

These are, I believe, all examples of poor catechesis; a common problem that plagues the Church. This isn't meant to disparage you; believe me probably about 95% of Catholics are taught about the Faith poorly. Pretty much all of us are "re-learning" our faith thanks to the tool of the Internet and other easily accessible sources of information.

This poor catechesis is the primary reason why so many, when they "pick up their Bibles and read for themselves" leave the Church. It's not that the Bible contradicts Catholicism; it's simply that many Catholics aren't taught how the two actually do agree!

I urge you, brother, to consider the possibility that you were simply taught erroneous beliefs about Catholicism (or you were given incomplete teaching) when you were younger, and re-examine the Faith today, learning what Catholics really do believe, and not what you think we believe.

The truly best way to do this is, ironically, on your own. Read catholic.com. Visit with a priest. Listen to programs like, "The Journey Home".

Debates on Internet fora can only take you so far; and ultimately people (in the heat of debate especially) will say something wrong. Thus, online debates should not be the benchmark for one's acceptance or rejection of Catholicism.

28 posted on 06/12/2009 9:28:43 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven; The Ignorant Fisherman
Amen to all that FourtySeven says!

I am a convert myself, from the Episcopalians, but my conversion was a long time in the making. A good classical education put me on the road, along with studying Medieval and Renaissance history (as Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant). And of course if you hear and sing the music of folks like Palestrina, di Lasso, Tallis and Byrd (the last two were Catholic but were left strictly alone by the authorities), that's a conversion experience in itself.

The important thing is to find out for yourself. Read and study. Plenty of folks here will be happy to give you suggestions. Here's mine:

It's old-fashioned and uncompromising, and it's intended particularly for Anglicans (the author was head of the Church Missionary Society for years). But if you want answers, it's got answers.

29 posted on 06/12/2009 11:32:04 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Salvation

I never thought that Greek 101/102 was going to prove so useful . . . :-D


30 posted on 06/12/2009 11:33:45 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: bronxville

Good point. I had never thought of that...the Catholic Church got it right.


31 posted on 06/12/2009 1:04:53 PM PDT by chase19
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To: AnAmericanMother

Good work and very informative. Thanks. :)


32 posted on 06/12/2009 1:05:52 PM PDT by chase19
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To: bronxville
There is absolutely no scripture to uphold that position..All have sinned! (Romans 3:23)...even Mary.
33 posted on 06/15/2009 10:00:37 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: Servant of the Cross

My friend ..I’m not Mary Hating..She truly was blessed (Happy) and
I call her blessed and beloved but...you guys have turned her into to someone she is not. She was highly Favored of God to provide the body of The Savior of the world. that’s it...she needed a Savior. only a sinner (not perfect) as we all are needs a Savior.


34 posted on 06/15/2009 10:05:28 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: wombtotomb
Not so! god by passed the seed of Fallen man. It is man that the inherited sin or imperfections of man after the fall are passed on by. God removed Man from the equation and the Holy spirit super naturally cause Mary to conceive. That argument is baseless -then how could Mary be sin less with out an sinless mother and so on and so on...think it out my friend... ALMIGHTY GOD BY-PASSED THE SEED OF FALLEN MAN. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE. tHAT IS HOW JESUS(GOD THE SON) WAS GIVEN A PERFECT SINLESS BODY TO DWELL IN.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: hEBREWS 10:5

35 posted on 06/15/2009 10:12:36 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Sigh. He did not bypass man, Mary is man. Hence Jesus being Fully HUMAN and Fully DIVINE.


36 posted on 06/15/2009 10:32:42 AM PDT by wombtotomb
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To: wombtotomb
and I groaned in my spirit......Read Genesis 5.. Adam begot a son in “his image” a sinner like you and me. Mary is a woman.... and from the seed of her father... the corruption comes from the seed of man ..our fallen humanity..... stop trying to justify your foolish traditions when Holy Scripture is absolutely clear on it. There is no Scripture to support the Immaculate conception..... Absolutely none.. if you want to believe a lie and Not Almighty’ God's Holy Word...then be my guest... it's your life... the IC is just your own human way of trying to figure out and comprehending how Mary can conceive a Body for Almighty God the Son who is Spirit and Deity. If she was sinless she would never needed a Savior as she has stated..

My friend let go of your traditions and let Almighty God's Word be your instruction manual about Christian truth and doctrine.

thanks for the good debate! David the mailman http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/06/just-broken-egg.html

37 posted on 06/15/2009 2:49:32 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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