Posted on 06/18/2009 4:02:05 PM PDT by bronxville
“Christians go through Christ, everyone else is just a dead human”
In his #1 Evangelical book, The Purpose Driven Life, Rick Warren, says:
Your spiritual family is even more important than your physical family because it will last forever. Our families on the earth are wonderful gifts from God, but they are temporary and fragile, often broken by divorce, distance, growing old, and inevitably, death...our spiritual family-our relationship to other believers-will continue throughout eternity. It is a much stronger union, a more permanent bond than blood relationships. (The Purpose Driven Life, pg 118)
I posted the writings of Luther, Crammer, Wesley, Zwingli, et al and I’m told you’ve all grown up since then. Yet when I post the interpretation of todays pastors I’m told you don’t follow them either. So who do you all follow? If you say Jesus Christ and as such don’t need a pastor then whose interpreting the Holy Bible with you? Are you all an authority unto yourselves?
The above paragraph by Rick Warren is almost the same as Catholic teaching and he’s an Evangelical. Do you agree with his interpretation? If not why not and under whose authority are you following?
Ummmm...isn't that what I said? Inspired = God breathed.
Well, no actually in 132 I said...
“I trust the people who put the Words on paper.”
And you said
“So do I, the Holy Spirit.”
The Holy Spirit didn’t put any Words on paper.
Good grief.
YOU wrote (post 101) “From the Douay-Rheims it says....”
I pointed out that it “is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English.” Normally, double translations aren’t the most accurate. And the Douay-Rheims you quoted was made in response to the Reformation.
Yes, the Latin Vulgate is older, but it has many texts - as do the Greek and Hebrew. Modern translations - which I’ve used - take all that into account in trying to figure out what the original manuscripts would have been.
Neither of us is qualified to debate the quality of various texts used in translating the Bible. From what I’ve read, the Catholic Church, in the 1500s, tried to set in stone what is the authoritative text - by decree, not scholarship.
That is fine if you are arguing with other Catholics, but doesn’t count for much when you cite scripture to non-Catholics. If you have reason to believe the texts used by the NIV / ESV etc are bogus, feel free to lecture me. Otherwise, I’ll go with the best scholarship of folks who have devoted their lives to studying the basic Greek & Hebrew texts.
I don’t like Rick Warren, but I doubt even Rick Warren would suggest our ‘spiritual family’ takes precedence over the Word of God.
Or are you suggesting that we need to approach God via saints and various other humans? Mary?
Romans 8:
“15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.”
I don’t know about you, but my kids don’t need to approach me via their cousins...or my Mom. And remember - Abba can be translated, “Daddy”.
Hebrews 10:
“19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.”
We have confidence to enter by Jesus, our Great High Priest - not by human intervention.
I’ll look forward to it. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
“If not why not and under whose authority are you following?”
That is a central point for Protestants. ANY human can err in interpretation, so therefor we feel compelled to examine the scripture and make our own interpretation. After all, it is OUR souls in the balance.
I can assure you of this - no Baptist I’ve ever met considers Rick Warren to be an authority he/she needs to follow blindly!
So you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? "Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."?
I know you are not going to give on any issue the Holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. At least be open to the idea that you/they may not have it all right. I certainly respect your right to believe as you choose.
My responses have been to the posting about the Roman Catholic's tenets regarding the place of Mary in ALL Christians' lives. Many people do NOT agree and aren't afraid to say why. This is NOT Catholic-bashing or persecution.
I'm done for the night. Thanks for the back and forth.
No, Mary was free of original sin. God would not join Himself to sin or imperfection. Jesus was made up of Mary’s genetic code and took on her human traits. Mary was not a sinner. God would not have picked a sinner to mother His Son, teach Him, train Him, and care for Him for His whole life.
The angel Gabriel called Mary blessed among all women and full of grace. Did God’s messenger lie? Logic dictates that Mary was not a sinner.
Even Martin Luther thought so:
“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {”Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).”
Mary was a human mother but was not born in sin. God cannot be part of sin and He became part of Mary when He used her genetic code in her Son. Christ joined Mary’s humanity. She is not just a bloodline, like a brood mare. Mary was selected for her saintly nature and the mother she would be to Christ. She was selected for her unique soul. Otherwise God could have selected anyone all along David’s bloodline for centuries. God had a purpose in selecting Mary.
The angel Gabriel proclaimed Mary blessed among all women and full of grace. Was God’s messenger lying? Mary is unique and special and Christ loves her very much. This is why the Catholic Church loves her very much.
St. Paul told the early Church to pray to those who had died and were in heaven for help. Mary is surely one of the most saintly souls in Heaven. We pray to her to ask her for help. We ask her to petition her Son on our behalf.
What happened to the Protestant Tradition?
Nothing. "Protestant" tradition, link papist tradition, is, and should always have been, subordinate to the Bible.
Why?
“15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.”
If you can call God "Daddy", why do you have to ask Mary to petition Jesus on your behalf?
"St. Paul told the early Church to pray to those who had died and were in heaven for help."
Where?
Romans 3
“For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
As these passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
That’s why I could never believe in the doctrine of the Catholic Church. But I have good friends that are Catholic.
I have the same opinion as you on Mary...man keeps heaping new names on her and God gave her the greatest name, Mother of Jesus..Don’t need all the other names..
That is a great post....(I cannot apologize for past posts to you because this just maybe a once in a lifetime agreement) :O])
Somewhere along the way Protestants lost the Communion of Saints of the creed.
I wonder where/when that happened also.
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