Posted on 06/18/2009 4:02:05 PM PDT by bronxville
Did you leave the belief in intercessory prayer and the Communion of Saints as well?
We follow God's Word. Men's opinions can be interesting, but not relevant.
You suppose she is His equal, maybe His superior?
Otherwise, she is subordinate.
Sorry, I just can't see where we should me worshiping Mary.
LOL, who suggest worship? Honor, yes. Honor above all other women, yes. Worship is reserved for the Triune God. Certainly God honored her and still does, no?
Even a blind hog finds a grain of corn now and then. ;-)
Well, if you imply that she is NOT His subordinate, that she is His equal or His superior, then she would be worthy of worship, no?
She is not to be worshiped and therefor subordinate.
Does that not follow?
Maybe you just need to change your screen name to “gunner”.
Melian says:
The angel Gabriel proclaimed Mary blessed among all women and full of grace. Was God’s messenger lying? Mary is unique and special and Christ loves her very much. This is why the Catholic Church loves her very much.
lilylangtree says:
That’s why I could never believe in the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Very odd, the Church teaches a special place for the Mother of God (and has taught this from her days by the side of the Apostles) and that is what you reject? Why?
“I trust the people who put the Words on paper.”
You believe that the Holy Spirit physically moved a pen with a hand?
That’s a little too Star Trek shapshifting for me.
“Yes, the Latin Vulgate is older, but it has many texts “
Some that were lost after St. Jerome wrote them. Sorry you guys missed those.
“From what I’ve read, the Catholic Church, in the 1500s, tried to set in stone what is the authoritative text - by decree, not scholarship.”
From what I’ve read, the translators of your text were not able to see some of what St. Jerome saw and omitted others.
“That is fine if you are arguing with other Catholics, but doesn’t count for much when you cite scripture to non-Catholics.”
Yeah, it’s a pity that some non-Catholics don’t understand their history is slanted their way. Kind of like debating with Al Gore. Their truth is only their truth.
Rev 5.8: “8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
You then conclude “the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.”
Sorry, but it doesn’t follow. Incense fills a place with a scent. The prayers of the saints DO fill heaven, but that isn’t the same as saints in heaven offering prayers for those on earth, or coming between us and God to pass on our prayers. No where in scripture are we told to pray to saints in heaven that they may intercede for us before God. And if it is the saints in heaven who offer our prayers to God, then why only 24?
On the contrary. Romans 8: “ 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.”
Hebrews 7: “25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.”
There is no need for interpretation, for we are plainly told
We are the children of God, calling him Daddy! Do your children need to find others to communicate to you on their behalf? Do your children need to ask your Mom to present their case?
1 Timothy 2: “1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Notice, we are instructed to pray...but it says nothing about praying to saints in heaven, or asking Mary to intercede on our behalf. One would think that if Mary could tell Jesus what to do, or if we could/should ask her to intercede for us, then there would be some mention of it somewhere in scripture.
This is the problem with the Roman Catholic Church. Over a thousand years, it picked up from the culture around it the habits and customs of men - and then elevated those stains to the position of Church doctrine!
No one could go to an earthly king and hope for direct access. Instead - and I’ve lived in societies like this - you need to find someone on the inside to represent your case. But that is not what scripture reveals about God.
“Some that were lost after St. Jerome wrote them. Sorry you guys missed those.”
If you have texts of the Vulgate that none of ‘my guys’ have seen, please share them. What you have is a text compiled in the 1590s, declared by your Church to be the true text in Latin. If I assume the Pope is infallible, then I would be content. However, I don’t - so his word alone that the Vulgate text of 1590 (adjusted in 1592) is authoritative doesn’t do much for me. I’d much rather rely on the Greek and Hebrew texts.
I should also point out that modern scholars DO use the Vulgate as AN input in trying to determine the most authoritative text.
“From what I’ve read, the translators of your text were not able to see some of what St. Jerome saw and omitted others.”
Ummm...I’m talking about people working on Greek and Hebrew texts that are much older than the Vulgate of 1590/92. Are you saying the Roman Catholic Church is hiding something? Does your church have a copy of the original Vulgate hidden in a vault?
“Yeah, it’s a pity that some non-Catholics don’t understand their history is slanted their way. Kind of like debating with Al Gore. Their truth is only their truth.”
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Lets see - does the Pope provide an unbiased source of information? Do Catholic sources provide unbiased history?
>>f you have texts of the Vulgate that none of ‘my guys’ have seen, please share them.<<
LOLOL!!
They’re lost, according to YOUR source on The Douay-Rheims, Wikipedia.
“I’d much rather rely on the Greek and Hebrew texts.”
So do I. The one’s that St. Jerome translated to Latin.
Our scholars have been working with those texts from the beginning. We held them. You guys just came late to the game and missed what you couldn’t see (lost) and what you didn’t want.
I have no problem with anyone and their religion, but come on, to make the convenient truth absolute is silly.
And btw, the Pope didn’t translate and the Pope is not infallable in anything other that dogma. That’s a convenient truth that seems to be skipped.
Incense was used as a sign of our prayers being lifted up to God. It is used this way in both the Old and New Testaments.
You have made my point for me: We were told by Christ to call God “Daddy.” God gave us a spiritual mother. God wants His children to function as a family. In all families we can go straight to Dad, or we can ask Mom to help us go to Dad. Mom is there to support us and strengthen us. Mary certainly supported and strengthened Christ during His entire life, most especially when He was carrying the cross and dying on it. Christ gave us a relationship with Mary as an option to increase holiness. We don’t need to use her to present our prayers to God, but we have the option of asking her to support our prayers.
Mary was Christ’s first apostle, present at every important event in the Gospels. She is one of the few women mentioned by name, and was the only woman in the room when the Holy Spirit came to strengthen the new Church. Not to mention that Jesus loved her as a mother! Mary was the first person to be raptured straight to heaven! An angel of the Lord said she had found special favor with Him, was selected for an unprecedented honor, was blessed and full of grace.
If you don’t see that that gives her a special place in God’s kingdom, you are missing something. All the early writers of the Church placed Mary in a position of honor. Apparently the apostles did too, since they allowed her into the room on the Pentecost. Christ loved her enough to make a special provision for her by giving her to the apostle He loved the most after His death. If Mary mattered so little, why not give her to any of the apostles— or to a wealthy follower? No, Christ gave her to the one He loved most because she was special to Him.
Finally, let me ask you this: have you ever asked your pastor to pray for you? Why do you do that? Do you ask your fellow believers to pray for you when you are in distress? Do you ask them to join their prayers with yours and bring them before God? If so, you are doing exactly what Catholics do with Mary. You are asking them to function as prayer support and intercessors. Where two or three are gathered in His name, there is more powerful prayer. Catholics just include Mary in the group that is praying.
“I’d much rather rely on the Greek and Hebrew texts.”
So do I. The one’s that St. Jerome translated to Latin.
Our scholars have been working with those texts from the beginning. We held them.
Ahh...so you have the original translation made in in 382. Outstanding! Please let other folks see it!
Oh, but wait. They’ve been lost (by your church), so in the late 1500s, your church tried to produce an authoritative copy of the Vulgate - 1200 years after the original translation.
“The ESV is based on the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible as found in Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (2nd ed., 1983), and on the Greek text in the 1993 editions of the Greek New Testament (4th corrected ed.), published by the United Bible Societies (UBS), and Novum Testamentum Graece (27th ed.), edited by Nestle and Aland.
The currently renewed respect among Old Testament scholars for the Masoretic text is reflected in the ESV’s attempt, wherever possible, to translate difficult Hebrew passages as they stand in the Masoretic text rather than resorting to emendations or to finding an alternative reading in the ancient versions.
In exceptional, difficult cases, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Peshitta, the Latin Vulgate, and other sources were consulted to shed possible light on the text, or, if necessary, to support a divergence from the Masoretic text. Similarly, in a few difficult cases in the New Testament, the ESV has followed a Greek text different from the text given preference in the UBS/Nestle-Aland 27th edition.
The footnotes that accompany the ESV text inform the reader of textual variations and difficulties and show how these have been resolved by the ESV Translation Team. In addition to this, the footnotes indicate significant alternative readings and occasionally provide an explanation for technical terms or for a difficult reading in the text.
Throughout, the Translation Team has benefited greatly from the massive textual resources that have become readily available recently, from new insights into biblical laws and culture, and from current advances in Hebrew and Greek lexicography and grammatical understanding.”
>>Ahh...so you have the original translation made in in 382. Outstanding! Please let other folks see it!<<
LOL! I never said I had them in my back pocket. I do as a Catholic rely on the entity that translated them originally, unlike non-Catholics who rely on a group of men who lived hundreds of years later.
And your quote is amazing. The translators actually used what St. Jerome used. Wonder why? Maybe because it’s RIGHT?!?
Mr. Rogers, I now have to leave and get some work done, but I leave you with this final thought: You wrote:
“On the contrary. Romans 8: 26 ‘In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.’ ”
This passage shows that God believes intercession is important. The third person of the Trinity actually has it as a job. If God only wanted us to take our needs straight to Him, why have the Holy Spirit intercede for the saints? Intercession would not be necessary. But apparently it is. God made it so. The Holy Spirit is the most powerful intercessor; Mary and the apostles are powerful intercessors for us; our guardian angels and all the saints in heaven also intercede for us. We are a family and they all love us and try to help us.
I hope this discussion has helped you understand why Catholics hold Mary in high regard. It is because the Gospels indicate many times that God did. She was foretold and created for a very special purpose. An archangel told her she was favored by God, blessed, and full of grace. She answered God’s unique call to her with great faith and dedicated her whole life to God’s service. She initiated Christ’s first miracle. The apostles treated her specially. Christ gave her to his favorite apostle after His death. She was present at the Pentecost. She was taken up to heaven in a special way. Early Church writers treated her with great respect and honor. These facts cause Catholics to believe that Mary has a special place in Christ’s kingdom and that she is worthy of honor and praise.
I have enjoyed your knowledge of scripture and I thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
Are you incapable of understanding English?
The Catholic Church makes no pretense of having the original Vulgate. In the late 1500s, in response to the Reformation, it tried to put together a good text. That is no different from the process used to assemble good texts of the Greek & Hebrew - and no less fallible.
Part of the reason I don’t use the KJV is that we have much better underlying texts available to us now than we did in the 1500s.
And my quote shows the ESV uses Jerome as a SOURCE of information - not THE SOURCE. They do not use the Vulgate because there are better texts for most of the Bible.
Are you saying that St. Jerome was NOT part of the Catholic Church? Hmmmm.
You see, you make the mistakes that those who debate from one standpoint make. You are absolutely right. Therefore any other pov is wrong.
YOU gave me the source that pointed to the fact that St. Jerome translated ALL the original sources. Now that’s not convenient.
You are lead by the Holy Spirit to believe that your translation is right, so you are right. However when I am lead by the Holy Spirit to believe that the Catholic translation is right, I am wrong.
You can’t prove that there were no other texts that what you are looking at. None of us can. But because they don’t suit your argument, poof, gone.
That’s kind of silly.
Oh and as for the “understanding English” part, that’s a bit personal and against the rules of the Religion Forum.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.