Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is 'Ecumenism' a Bad Word?
Catholic Culture ^ | 7/27/2000 | Matt C. Abbott

Posted on 06/25/2009 9:21:29 PM PDT by bdeaner

I remember listening to a conversation among several “traditional” Catholics (you know, the anti-Vatican II/anti-John Paul II/anti-Novus Ordo Missae/Latin Mass only crowd!) when I heard one individual exclaim: “Ecumenism is a bad word!” The others quickly nodded in agreement. (Not exactly a surprising statement and response, considering the source.)

But seriously, ecumenism is a vital mission of the Church that needs to be understood more fully and correctly, especially as we enter this ostensibly pivotal third millennium. Is ecumenism really a bad word? Or, more to the point, does ecumenism require Catholics to compromise their faith? The answer lies in whether we are talking about authentic ecumenism (no) or false ecumenism (yes).

Contrary to what most “traditional” Catholics say, there is such a thing as authentic ecumenism – and it is essential for Christian unity. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Christ bestowed unity on His Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time. Christ always gives His Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ will for her…. The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit” (n. 820).

In Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II also speaks of the urgent need for Christian unity: “By the year 2000 we need to be more united, more willing to advance along the path toward the unity for which Christ prayed on the eve of His Passion. This unity is enormously precious. In a certain sense, the future of the world is at stake. The future of the Kingdom of God in the world is at stake.”

So why is ecumenism so controversial? One central issue is the oft-misinterpreted and misrepresented teaching extra ecclesiam nulla salus (“outside the Church there is no salvation”).

The Catechism quotes Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium on this subject: “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church” (nn. 846-847).

The Catechism goes on to quote Vatican II’s teaching on what is known as Baptism of desire: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (n. 847).

And in its section on Baptism, the Catechism teaches what is known as Baptism of blood: “The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament” (n. 1258).

In summary, we know that everyone’s salvation – Catholic and non-Catholic – is through the Catholic Church, either as faithful members of the Church (Baptism of water), or as persons who give their life for Christ (Baptism of blood), or who would belong to the Catholic Church if they knew it was the one, true Church founded by Jesus Christ (Baptism of desire). BR> There are, however, a considerable number of “traditional” Catholics, known affectionately as “Feeneyites” (followers of the late Fr. Leonard J. Feeney and his rigorist and thereby erroneous interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus), who deny Baptisms of blood and desire. They often cite various quotations (mostly out of context) from early Popes, saints, and councils to “confirm” their erroneous position that Baptism of blood and Baptism of desire are false teachings.

Yet we see that this assertion is simply ludicrous. Indeed, Baptism of blood and/or desire was taught by such early Church fathers as Iranaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, and Augustine, and also by the Council of Trent. And the teaching of Baptism of desire was reaffirmed by Pope Pius XII in his 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis and by the Vatican’s Holy Office in 1949. So much for the false assertion that this teaching was “invented” by the Second Vatican Council!

It is also asserted by many “traditional” Catholics that ecumenism itself was an invention of Vatican II. This, needless to say, is not the case.

Consider Pope Leo XIII, who tried to encourage an attitude of respect and friendship with the Eastern Churches and with our Protestant brothers and sisters. He never referred to them as heretics, but rather as “separated Christians.”

And consider Pope Pius XII, whose ecumenical outlook in regard to Protestants is most striking. In his 1939 encyclical, Summa Pontificatus, he says that “we cannot pass over in silence the profound impression of heartfelt gratitude made on us by the good wishes of those who, though not belonging to the visible body of the Catholic Church, have given noble and sincere expression to their appreciation of all that unites them to us, in love for the person of Christ or belief in God.”

Also significant during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was the publishing of On the Ecumenical Movement by the Holy Office in 1949. This document allowed Catholics, with the approval of their bishop, to engage in theological dialog and common prayer with Protestant Christians.

Examples such as these illustrate how ecumenism has profoundly developed over the years, especially since Vatican II and with the post-Vatican II pontificates.

Now there also is such a thing as false ecumenism, which seeks to promote religious indifferentism (all religions are of equal value and therefore it doesn’t matter which one you belong to), universalism (the heretical belief that all people are saved), and syncretism (the combining of various beliefs and practices of different religions as a “compromise”).

But none of these are taught – and could never be taught – by the Church or the Vicar of Christ. Yes, it is (unfortunately) true that some Catholics go too far in this arena and end up promoting erroneous doctrines and ideologies instead of authentic ecumenical dialog. Even a priest can be guilty of this, such as when he allows or encourages non-Catholics to receive Holy Communion – something ordinarily not permitted by the Church.

Yet, to say that the Magisterium itself is teaching and promoting heresy is preposterous, for we know that Christ’s Church is both infallible and indefectible. And all of Pope John Paul II’s ecumenical efforts stem the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, which – like the previous 20 ecumenical councils – was guided by the Holy Spirit and thus protected from doctrinal error.

Ultimately, true ecumenism does not require us to give up our Marian devotions (a big no-no in my book!) or in any way compromise our faith; it means joining hands with other Christians and people of goodwill to bring our nihilistic, hedonistic, anti-life, anti-family culture back to God, while at the same time acknowledging our obvious differences. Far from being a bad word, ecumenism is – in the words of John Paul II – “a response to the exhortation in the First Letter of Peter to ‘give an explanation of the reason for our hope’” (1 Peter 3:15).

Sources

1. “The Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

2. “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” by Pope John Paul II (Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1994).

3. “Catholic Replies” by James J. Drummey (C.R. Publications, 1995).

4. “Pre-Vatican II Ecumenism” by Dave Armstrong (from his web site).

5. “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus: Fr Feeney Makes a Comeback” by Michael J. Mazza (“Fidelity” magazine, December 1994).

6. Catholic Encyclopedia, edited by Fr. Peter Stravinskas (Our Sunday Visitor, 1991).


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptismofdesire; catholic; ecumenism; vaticanii
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-94 next last

1 posted on 06/25/2009 9:21:30 PM PDT by bdeaner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Ecumenism is straight from Lucifer. No doubt about it.


2 posted on 06/25/2009 9:30:46 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10
Ecumenism is straight from Lucifer. No doubt about it.

LOL. Are you serious?
3 posted on 06/25/2009 9:33:12 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Ecumenism, as put forth by Revelation, a.k.a: one world religion. Compromise over biblical things is never good.


4 posted on 06/25/2009 9:35:14 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10

“The Catechism goes on to quote Vatican II’s teaching on what is known as Baptism of desire: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (n. 847).”

Wrong. Salvation is through Jesus Christ’s work on the cross and his efforts alone.


5 posted on 06/25/2009 9:37:18 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner
This is ecumenicism...



(That's a Koran btw.)
6 posted on 06/25/2009 9:42:49 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10
Ecumenism, as put forth by Revelation, a.k.a: one world religion. Compromise over biblical things is never good.

I think you jumped the gun a bit. First of all, the article is talking about CHRISTIAN ecumenism, not "one world religion." Secondly, the article is explicitly critical of the "one world religion" type of ecumenism -- in other words, without compromising -- yet nevertheless striving toward Christian unity.

Biblically, we are commanded to strive toward unity as a Church, but of course without compromise.
7 posted on 06/25/2009 9:43:46 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Actually we’re not commanded to strive towards unity as a church. We are commanded to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ without dilution. We can’t get there on our own merits, Christ and Christ alone is the way.


8 posted on 06/25/2009 9:46:32 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10; bdeaner

“seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” - Catholic Church

“...But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

- Jesus Christ

It seems that Jesus taught that the ignorant would have a lesser punishment - but not eternal life.


9 posted on 06/25/2009 9:47:46 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

I am a traditional catholic and belong to a parish under the FSSP. Their founding...

In 1988, Pope John Paul II established the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter as a society of apostolic life and approved its constitutions. The Fraternity was founded in response to the Holy Father’s call to ecclesial unity and the new evangelization. Hence, our name denotes a filial love and loyalty to the Supreme Pontiff.

Their mission...
The Fraternity of St. Peter seeks to respond to the Holy Father’s appeal through an active apostolate in the service of the Church. We seek to reunite those who have been alienated by liturgical abuse and theological dissent by offering the sacred liturgy in all of its solemnity according to the Latin liturgical books of 1962, and by offering the faithful sound catechetical teaching within the living Tradition of the Church

The Holy Father has called on all baptized faithful to participate in the new evangelization of the world, emphasizing the fact that all must use their unique charisms to full effect. The fraternity of St. Peter has as its charism the celebration of the sacraments according to the extraordinary from of the Roman rite. Through our liturgical identity, the Fraternity carries on the new evangelization in the living tradition of the Church that is ever ancient, ever new.


10 posted on 06/25/2009 9:58:04 PM PDT by Irisshlass
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus

I’m not Catholic. My Lord and Saviour is Jesus Christ, not works. My deeds can never be good enough to get to heaven. To say otherwise is denial of Christ.

“For by grace are you saved, not works, lest any man should boast.”


11 posted on 06/25/2009 9:58:04 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

12 posted on 06/25/2009 10:04:49 PM PDT by Irisshlass
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10; All
Let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

Ephesians 4:1-16
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

John 17: 20-23
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Ephesians 1:23
And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

John 17:9-11
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 17: 21-23
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 1:10-16
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)

Galatians 3:27-28
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:1-6, 15-16
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all...
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Acts 4:32
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

13 posted on 06/25/2009 10:15:33 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Your scriptures are not the same as mine. You choose to be Catholic, I choose to be Christian. Good day.


14 posted on 06/25/2009 10:20:13 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10
Evangelical and Catholic theologies both accept as the starting tenet of soteriology that we are saved by grace. God gives us his life as an act of generosity on his part. This is a not a point of disagreement between Catholics and Evangelicals. It is one of our glorious agreements! I'm sorry you do not appreciate that. Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification.

There are some differences in the ways Protestants, and in particular Evangelicals, define grace by referring primarily to its origin in God. Grace is typically defined as the free generosity of God through the self-giving of Christ. Catholics agree with this part of the definition but go on to define how the grace of God affects us when we are touched by it: grace is "any divine assistance given to persons in order to advance them toward their supernatural destiny of fellowship with God...Grace transforms a person's nature" (Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia). Catholics will go even farther, distinguishing between santifying grace (supernatural life) and actual grace (supernatural aid).

The problem that Catholics have with Protestant soteriology is not the claim that we are justified by faith but the claim that we are justified by faith alone. Works continue the justification after faith has begun it. In other words, justification is not complete without complete sanctification.

All the Catholic position needs is, first, any scripture that indicates works are essential for justification. And secondly, the absence of any statement in the Bible that we are justified by faith ALONE.

First, Scripture does clearly and emphatically teach that works are involved in the "by" of justification. The most obvious passage is in James:

James 2:14-26
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


Faith without action/works is dead. He says a man is "JUSTIFIED by what he does." The Catholic interpretation is validated by the fact that reformers attempted to put James into an appendix in the Bible rather than in its historically accepted place. But it cannot be ignored.

Nevertheless James is not the only place to find verses to support the necessity of works (AND faith) for justification. The Catholic view of justification by faith AND works (faith comes first) is consistent with the gospel of Jesus!

Our Lord, Jesus Christ's ideal was that of a life of good works flowing outward from a vibrant inner faith. The parables of the wide and foolish builders (Mt 7:24-27), the two sons (Mt 21:28-32), the good Samaritan (Lk 10:25-37), the talents (Mt 25:14-30), the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46), and others all teach a unity of faith and works for salvation. The entire Sermon on the Mount is a discourse on Jesus' view of justification (justification and righteousness have the same root in Greek): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven" (Mt 7:21). How much more explicit could Jesus have been?!?!?

In the Lord's Prayer (Our Father), Jesus teaches us to ask God to forgive us in the same measure that we have forgiven others. "Forgive us our debts [trespasses], as we also have forgiven our debtors [those who trespass against us]" (Mt 6:12). Catholics pray this prayer in every Mass. As a former Evangelical, I NEVER ONCE heard this prayer in an Evangelical Church! The theology of the Lord's Prayer just does not fit Protestant notions concerning salvation. For this reason, they feel it is better left unsaid. What a shame.

It is quite clear in Jesus' teaching that justification, and thus salvation, is accomplished in a unity of these two: faith and works. The whole process is made possible solely by grace. This is just what Catholic theology asserts.

Does Scripture anywhere state that "by faith alone" we are justified? The long and the short of it is--no. Those words are never, ever used in relation to justification anymore, by any of the NT authors. And no, not by Paul, who critized Jewish obligational works of law, e.g. circumcision, but not justification by good works. In fact, there are many passages in Paul's letters that support the necessity of good action for justification, including Philippians 2:12, Romans 2:6-8, etc.. And, by the way, the reformers tampered with the translation of Ephesians 2:8-10 -- it never said "faith ALONE," but rather that "BY GRACE" we "have been saved, through faith...for we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do GOOD WORKS."! In short, Paul agrees: grace makes possible justification through faith AND good works.
15 posted on 06/25/2009 10:22:57 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10

“You choose to be Catholic, I choose to be Christian.”

Nice.

Freegards


16 posted on 06/25/2009 10:24:54 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: kingpins10
Catholics are the original Christians, who canonized the Bible. The Church considers all Christians to be Christians, but not in full communion with the Mother Church.

God bless you, my Christian Brother. I will keep you in my prayers.
17 posted on 06/25/2009 10:25:33 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Ransomed

God bless you, Christian Brother (or Sister, as the case may be). You may not recognize Catholics as Christians, but we are the original Christians. Without the Church, there would be no Bible. And we recognize all Christians as our brothers and sisters, only not in full communion with the Mystical Body of Christ that is the Church.


18 posted on 06/25/2009 10:28:51 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

We all need to get together somehow or other because what’s coming down the pike will need strong unity.


19 posted on 06/25/2009 10:36:21 PM PDT by bronxville
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Actually, you’re wrong about the original Christian brothers. They were called the apostles.

The Catholic Vulgate is from corrupted manuscripts from Alexandria, Egypt where followers of Origen inserted their own personal beliefs into the scripts. Among those are the belief that works are good enough to win salvation, which is false.

The ‘church’ is the local visible congregation of New Testament believers. That is why the Catholic church rounded up Christians by the millions, all through the ages, and murdered them. And now they are with the Lord.


20 posted on 06/25/2009 10:36:26 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-94 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson