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The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

Posted on 07/20/2009 9:32:05 PM PDT by bdeaner

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To: bdeaner; kosta50; Mr Rogers; annalex

Lest anyone believe that the Orthodox Church holds to the doctrine of purgatory on account of the Confession of Dositheus, you should know that that particular document was written to contest the heretical writings of an Ecumenical Patriarch who had embraced Calvinism. It is a pretty good exposition of Orthodox belief but hardly exhaustive nor 100% accurate, Decree 18 in particular having been universally rejected.

The Church of Constantinople rejects completely the notion of purgatory. It is a matter of faith that no soul can, by any action after death including suffering, affect its eternal destiny. We spend eternity with God after the Last Judgment not because we in any way are worthy of that but rather because of God’s mercy.

“The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.”


81 posted on 07/21/2009 6:36:37 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex

“Stubble burns, gold doesn’t.”

Of course...and of course, 1 Corinthians 3 has NOTHING to do with Purgatory.

And lest anyone doubt, let them read it for themselves:

“What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.”

At no time does it suggest that the believer is punished or put to fire to cleanse him from any remaining sin and prepare him for Heaven.

Of course, this is not suggested ANYWHERE in the Bible, and a great many verses teach the opposite.


82 posted on 07/21/2009 7:00:56 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: BuckeyeTexan; Dr. Eckleburg; annalex; bdeaner
BuckeyeTexan,

Yes, there is a history of adversarial interactions, and that is why I requested in post #1 that posters comply with the ecumenical nature of the thread. I am asking for folks to post with a warm, respectful attitude, with the assumption that all are in the pursuit of the same Truth -- while at the same time defending to the best extent possible, with good logic and reason, the scriptural or other evidential basis for their beliefs. This is going beyond the usual "don't make it personal," but also avoiding all inflammatory rhetoric, including straw man arguments, hyperbole, etc. That's the attitude I am hoping folks will bring to this conversation. Also, I don't think anybody should expect others to change their beliefs, or try to convert anyone in this forum, but seek rather to understand the beliefs of others on their own terms, and to clearly articulate how our beliefs differ from theirs. I think we'll enjoy the conversation, and will learn more, with this approach to ecumenical dialogue on this controversial doctrine of Purgatory.
83 posted on 07/21/2009 7:07:35 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner

Your post 30 has so much horrible interpretation of scripture that it will take an hour or more to list why each one is wrong. I’ll do so later today.

But just to start: your first quote says we must come to terms with the devil so we can escape the effects of sin. It is embarrassing to see anyone write such.

JESUS defends us from the Accuser.

“25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” - Hebrews 7

“But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” - 1 John 2

JESUS is our defense attorney, and he pleads his own blood.

Romans 8:

“3Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

There is NO WAY Matthew 5 teaches that we need to come to terms with Satan, and that our failure will keep us in torment until ‘the last penny is paid’!

That isn’t just bad exegesis, it is obscene.

Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.


84 posted on 07/21/2009 7:17:08 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

I did post a warning that the verses from Scripture Catholic should not be taken for granted, but should be read in context. We can take our time going through those verses, and examining them in some depth, if folks are interested in doing that. I look forward to your exegesis.


85 posted on 07/21/2009 7:23:09 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner

One of the pleasures in debating with you is your politeness. I wish I matched it, but I often fall far short. Need to finish cleaning the horse corrals before the garbage folks come...later!


86 posted on 07/21/2009 7:55:31 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
There is NO WAY Matthew 5 teaches that we need to come to terms with Satan, and that our failure will keep us in torment until ‘the last penny is paid’!

It is important to look at this verse, first, in light of other Scriptures, especially juxtaposed to Matthew 18:34. Clearly, in Chapter 18, Matthew is showing us the parallel between the Christ's teachings on the Sermon of the Mount and the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. We'll come back to that.

Secondly, it is clear that in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, verses 25-26, Jesus can be initially taken on face value as referring to dealing with a human adversary on the way to a court of law. This is what He is preaching about, literally. And we should of course accept this literal interpretation on face value -- indeed, we should try to resolve things with our adversary on the way to court, otherwise He is likely to take us to the bank! That makes good sense.

BUT, is that all we can take from this passage? Is this literal reading the only possible reading, or are there further implications? If we look to Mattew 18:21-35, it becomes clear that the literal interpretation of Matthew 5:25-26 is not the only meaning we should be taking away from that Scripture.

Clearly the parable of the unmerciful servant is referring to a Master who should be identified with God, our Father. And we are the servants. What happens to the servant who is lacking in charity? He is turned over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed (Matthew 18: 34), and Christ tells us explicitly that this is how His heavenly Father will treat each of us unless we forgive our brother from our hearts (verse 35).

So, going back, it is important to read Matthew 5 in light of Matthew 18, and reading these passages together, there is a clear and powerful case for the doctrine of purgatory. The parable demonstrates that the Master does not condemn the servant to death -- which would have been the parable's narrative if Jesus had meant to tell us we would be cast into Hell for lack of charity. Nor does the Master simply forgive the servant and treat Him the same as always--which it seems would be the implication of Protestant soteriology. No, the servant is placed in jail and must pay back what he owes. This intermediate state -- not condemned but in need of restitution -- is clearly implied by the Parable, and is difficult to account for without the doctrine of purgatory.
87 posted on 07/21/2009 8:58:34 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Mr Rogers

You are very humble — most of the time, you are very polite and a joy to converse with. We all have our moments! I have lost my cool on this forum more often than I would like to admit! LOL.


88 posted on 07/21/2009 8:59:41 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Kolokotronis; bdeaner; Mr Rogers; annalex
Lest anyone believe that the Orthodox Church holds to the doctrine of purgatory on account of the Confession of Dositheus, you should know that that particular document was written to contest the heretical writings of an Ecumenical Patriarch who had embraced Calvinism

Indeed, the Orthodox Church does not and never has taught anything resembling the Purgatory, and for a good reason. The Orthodox Church does teach that memorial services for the departed ease, through love, the discomfort (of shame) of those (most, all) who died without having confessed and repented of all their sins.

Regardless of whether they have or have not, some are believed saved immediately after death by God's mercy alone, their sins having been forgiven for reasons known only to God. This immediate or Particular Judgment is the announcement of what their final state will be following the Final Judgment when Christ returns.

In the interim period between the physical death and the Particular Judgment immediately following it, and the resurrection and the Final Judgment, there is no "purification," there is no repentance after death believed possible. Those souls that are believed saved at the end of their physical life by the Particular Judgment immediately following the physical death are saved entirely by the means of God's grace, the way their sins are remitted by God during their life on earth through confession and repentance and not through some torturous means.

The Orthodox do believe that, when their sins are made visible to all the souls experience various degrees of shame and discomfort from it since everyone sees what they have said an done and thought. The discomfort is also believed to come the knowledge that despite their sins and lack of repentance, they have been saved through god's grace, as they realize how undeserving of mercy they are and yet have been spared by the love of God and nothing else.

So, Orthodox memorials are not petitions to "purify" the soul but expressions of gratitude to God for having saved their loved ones; they are acts of love (spiritual hugs if you wish) that are believed to ease the discomfort of shame the departed experience spiritually in their humiliation.

The Catholic dogma of Purgatory, as can be seen in the article, invoked the temporal fires that somehow "roast" the sinful soul to God's "satisfaction" and is in a way a grotesque distortion of what the Church in the East always believed about the souls of the departed.

As with everything else Catholic, much of the dogma has been attenuated after the Vatican II, eliminating the temporal fires and "roasting" in an attempt to re-invent the wheel. Nevertheless, the idea that the souls are undergoing some purification, change, what not, remains. Likewise, the idea that indulgences somehow help speed up or aide this purification process (now that's a strange concept in God's realm) are equally alien to the East. The good thing was that the Protestants recognized these distortions but then, rather than turning East, only intensified the flawed Augustinian dead-end teachings.

By the way, the attempt of the article to cite early evidence of Christian belief in Purgatory is at best naïve. The early evidence simply expressed the Christian belief that God saved them by his mercy.

89 posted on 07/21/2009 9:14:16 AM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: bdeaner; annalex; bronxville; BuckeyeTexan; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; HarleyD; wmfights; ...
The doctrine of purgatory taught by the Roman Catholic Church does not find sufficient support in Scripture, although it appeals for such to biblical examples of temporal punishment/discipline of believers (e.g. Num. 20:12). These examples, however, do not refer to temporal punishment after death, and are best explained as disciplinary devices (Heb. 12). It also appeals to passages like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, in which Paul spoke of fire that would destroy men's work. However, in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it is the work of the church planters/leaders that will be tested by fire, not the church planters/leaders themselves. Those works not founded on Christ will be consumed by the fire, whereas those founded on Christ will earn heavenly rewards (cf. Matt. 6:20; 1 Cor. 9:17; 2 John 1:8). To be saved "as through fire" simply means that one will have few or no possessions/rewards, as if one's home had burned to the ground.

The doctrine of purgatory expresses the Roman Catholic idea that that unrepented venial sins must be punished temporally, and that the temporal punishment due these sins that has not been meted out prior to one's death must be meted out in purgatory after one's death.

Protestants, on the other hand, correctly argue that all the punishment due believers fell upon Christ at the Cross, including all temporal punishment (Rom. 8:1-4; Col. 2:14; Heb. 10:12-14; 1 Pet. 2:24). Because Christ's sacrifice was sufficient and effective, believers can never suffer God's punishment (temporal or eternal), but only his loving discipline (Heb. 12).

An important teaching which refutes the idea of purgatory is union with Christ. Believers are united to Christ in such a way that they share Christ's own righteous status before God (Gal. 3:16-29). Perfect forgiveness is had by all who are united to Christ because they died with him on the cross (Rom. 6:3-4), and because their lives are hidden in him (Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:3). Believers are counted as having paid for their sins in full, so God will never punish/judge them for their sins (though he may discipline them in love, not in judgment).

While it is true that believers must live lives of repentance and confession (1 John 1:9), it is also true that God is not keeping a ledger of sins which have been confessed/repented of and others which have not. Confession and repentace in the life of a believer are important elements of sanctification, but there is not a one-to-one relationship between our confession/repentance and our forgiveness. Rather, John was teaching that the life of a believer is characterized by repentance and confession, and that all believers receive the benefit of cleansing and forgiveness. As John assures us in 1 John 2:1-2, whenever we sin Christ himself intercedes on our behalf, pleading his shed blood in payment for our sins (Heb. 9:12-14). His intercession for us is constant and effective (Rom. 8:34), as is the Holy Spirit's (Rom. 8:26-27). This intercession does not deflect discipline (which results from God's love and mercy), but it does deflect any and all punishment (which results from God's justice and wrath).

When believers are absent from the body (dead), their souls are present with the Lord in heaven (2 Cor. 5:8). The "far away" place of Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22-23) is somewhat controversial, there being a debate over the nature of the passage (is it a parable, or a historical account?). At any rate, one may well argue that Abraham's bosom is heaven itself, and that hell/hades is the place of torment for the damned souls who will eventually be thrown into hell at the last judgment. Thus, being in Abraham's bosom in this passage equates to being with the Lord (the Lord is there now, as well as Abraham). Of course, at the time Jesus taught this, it was not yet true that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord insofar as one understands Jesus Christ to be the "Lord" to whom Paul referred in 2 Corinthians 5:8 -- Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven." -- by Ra McLaughlin


90 posted on 07/21/2009 9:18:12 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Mr Rogers
Of course, this is not suggested ANYWHERE in the Bible, and a great many verses teach the opposite.

Mark 9:47-50 (King James Version)

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

91 posted on 07/21/2009 9:24:09 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: BuckeyeTexan; bdeaner; annalex; bronxville; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; wmfights; ...
Thank you for your post and your comments on this ecumenical thread. And the "American Spectator" article on your homepage is great.

The most obvious problem with Rome's concoction of the whimsical lost island of purgatory with no basis in Scripture is that it demeans and very nearly negates the work of Christ on the cross by pronouncing it somehow insufficient to cover the sins of His flock.

It is a man-made concept intended to keep the masses subdued and nervous when in fact Christ gives liberty to our conscience and cleanses believers by His perfect, completed sacrifice.

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen" -- Hebrews 13:20-21

An excellent essay is found here...

PURGING A PROBLEM

"...It (purgatory) is a negation of the Scripture itself to hear a Roman pontiff express the following reprieve: "An indulgence of three years is granted to the faithful who read the Books of the Bible for at least a quarter of an hour, with the reverence due to the Divine Word and as a spiritual reading. To the faithful who piously read at least some verses of the Gospel and in addition, while kissing the Gospel Book, devoutly recite one of the following invocations...an indulgence of 500 days is granted." The man who penned these words was ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

All these doctrines and practices are tied to a heterodox way of looking at the process of salvation. Human effort and merit are somehow made part of Christ's work on our behalf. Purgatory is a negation of the doctrine of grace; it is a monument to a theology of works. And that, after all, is the way fallen man likes it..."


92 posted on 07/21/2009 9:42:18 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Jmouse007
God's Word is clear, everyone who has put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior and called upon His name and Him alone to save them from ALL of their sin HAVE BEEN and ARE saved from the penalty of ALL of their sin.

Then why didn't He say so? Why did He tell the man to 'keep the Commandments' IF he wanted eternal life?

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Behavior is linked with eternal life.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Again, behavior is linked to eternal life, NOT professing their belief that someone else did all the work for them.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

God's Word is clear, there is no purgatory only heaven or hell and the only way to escape the pangs of hell is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and to receive/accept Him as one's savior, trusting in Him and in Him alone, totally apart from any personal merit or "good works" to save us: John 1:12; John 3:14 - 18; Acts 16:30 - 31; Romans 10:13; Ephesians 2:8 - 9.

Not so fast. God's word is clear all right.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Revelation 2:19
I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Works

It's about believing Jesus when he told us to repent and do good WORKS/behavior, conduct and repentance.

93 posted on 07/21/2009 10:05:54 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: ET(end tyranny)

There’s lots more, but this:

1 Corinthians 3:14-16 (New International Version)
If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?


94 posted on 07/21/2009 10:09:01 AM PDT by RobRoy (This too will pass. But it will hurt like a you know what.)
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bookmark


95 posted on 07/21/2009 10:12:42 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; TheBattman; bdeaner; annalex

Purgatory is a man made construct built on false premises in order to keep man spiritually enslaved. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a place of intolerable suffering and agony. Cardinal Bellarmine said “the pains of purgatory are very severe, surpassing any endured in this life.” Death is not the disciple of the Risen Christ joyfully going home to be with his Savior but the fearful soul going to a place of unspeakable horror and suffering. This suffering is supposed to make satisfaction for the unrepentant guilt. Here they suffer the pain and anguish resulting from the fact that they are excluded from the presence of the Lord and endure the “punishment of the senses”, that is, suffers positive pains which afflict the soul. The duration as well as the intensity of the suffering varies according to the degree of purification still needed

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that this suffering can be shortened and alleviated by the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth and especially the sacrifice of the mass. The Pope is supposed to have the jurisdiction over purgatory. It is his peculiar prerogative to grant indulgences lightening the suffering or even terminating them.

The doctrine of purgatory offers the false hope that man has a chance to be saved after death.

It rests on the false doctrine that justification is progressive.
1. Man is justified only in such measure as he is sanctified,
2. Justification is a matter of degrees, so the Council of Trent declared it to be,
3. Since justification is a continuous process, the redeeming death of Christ, on which it depends, must be a continuous process also; hence its prolonged reiteration in the sacrifice by the Mass,
4. Since sanctification is obviously never completed in this life, no man ever dies completely justified; hence the doctrine of purgatory.

Justification is instantaneous, complete, and final,
1. Instantaneous, since otherwise there would be an interval during which the soul was neither approved nor condemned by God (Matt. 6:24),
2. Complete, since the soul, united to Christ by faith, becomes partaker of his complete satisfaction to the demands of the law (Col. 2:9, 10),
3. Final, since the union with Christ is indissoluble (John 10:28-29).

It rests on the false premises of,
1. Man must add something to the work of Christ,
2. That the “good” works of man are meritorious in the strict sense of the word,
3. That man can perform work in excess of the command to do his duty,
4. The Roman Catholic Church’s power of the “keys” is absolute in a judicial sense.

We can do nothing beyond what we are called to do that merits anything. It is our duty to do “good” works so how can anything we do redound to the benefit of anyone else except the recipient of the work? Luke 17:7-10, 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

It rests on false interpretation of scripture. It somehow reads into the mourning for Abraham, Moses, Saul and Abner, prayers to get them out of purgatory when the clear reading is that people were mourning (fasting being a part of it) for the loss of someone important. “The sting of death is sin”. The use of 2 Macc. 12:43-45 flies in the face of Roman Catholic doctrine. Judas Maccabeas is praying for soldiers who were killed because they were idol worshippers. Idolatry was a capital crime in Israel and there was no salvation for one caught worshipping idols. It is a mortal sin in Roman Catholicism. How then can the soldiers be in purgatory which is the place for “believers” to be purified, and how cans any prayer or “good” works save them? The use of Luke 23:43 to somehow make paradise, purgatory is shown to be false by 2 Cor. 12:4 where Paul says he was caught up into the same place and saw wonderful sights too glorious to mention. He did not say he saw intolerable suffering, in fact nowhere in the scriptures is there mentioned a place where believers go after death where they are exposed to intolerable suffering out side the presence of God who has said He would never leave us or forsake us.

Luke 16:19-31, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is used to somehow show that the rich man is in purgatory. What is missing in this fantasy are the words, “And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.” The rich man had not changed at all; he was still the same self absorbed, self important man in hell as he was on earth, ordering around one he thought to be his servant. He was fixed in his sin and was burning in hell. To try to read compassion in this is rank eisogesis. The deconstruction of Matt. 5:26, 18:34, Luke 12:58-59 to read that God is the judge and Satan is the adversary is just foolishness. This was part of the Sermon on the Mount spoken to simple folk who would understand exactly what Jesus was teaching, “if at all possible live at peace with all men”, not some esoteric teaching of a place of intolerable suffering and agony that could never be plainly spoken of.

When we die we (believers) are present with the Lord (Phil. 1:23, Luke 23:43, John 14:3, Matt. 28:20, 1 Thess 5:10. 2 Cor. 5:6-9 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Believers will not suffer the wrath of God because of sin. John 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 3:36, 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A Puritan writer wrote, “It is not the quantity of thy faith that shall save thee. A drop of water is as true water as the whole ocean. So a little faith is as true as the greatest. It is not the measure of thy faith that saves thee, - it is the blood that it grips to that saves thee”.


96 posted on 07/21/2009 10:14:07 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: bdeaner
Interesting article, but predictable in a sense. It does not surprise me that the true Scriptual argument against purgatory is not mentioned in the article. It is found in Hebrews 10:10, which is quite clear that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is enough to save.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (KJV)

Apocryphal reference to a purgatory nothwithstanding, Paul's words concerning judgment do not mention a purgatory. To my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I simply say this: either the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is enough to save us from our sin or it is not. If it is, there's no need for purgatory. If it's not, it is a sin to claim him as Savior.

May the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ delight to bless and be with you all.

97 posted on 07/21/2009 10:14:46 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (You're either in or in the way.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
While it is true that believers must live lives of repentance and confession (1 John 1:9), it is also true that God is not keeping a ledger of sins which have been confessed/repented of and others which have not. Confession and repentace in the life of a believer are important elements of sanctification, but there is not a one-to-one relationship between our confession/repentance and our forgiveness.

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Sure looks like ledger keeping.

98 posted on 07/21/2009 10:14:56 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
But apparently on ecumenical threads you, Annalex, have taken it upon yourself to break FR religion rules by making the discussion personal.

Oh the irony!

99 posted on 07/21/2009 10:18:51 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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Comment #100 Removed by Moderator


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