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In The Beginning God, Not Darwin, Created
Post Scripts ^ | 10/11/09 | One Vike

Posted on 10/11/2009 6:56:59 AM PDT by OneVike

special thanks to hanna548 for the artwork

There is a disturbing trend that has taken hold of the modern day Christian community, and it is my opinion that this trend is causing a schism as big as the one that was addressed at the Council of Nicea over the Trinity. Now this is not a debate for those who have no faith in Christ, for what accord has Christ with Belial? No, this is strictly a debate for those who profess Christ as their Lord and Savior. Unfortunately, those who attempt to address the problem are usually labeled as rabble-rousers who only wish to spread discontent within the ranks of Christendom. This trend I speak of, is the compromising of the Word with the idea of evolution known as theistic evolution or Old Earth Creationism. I say “compromise”, because in the 150 years since Darwin offered his theory of evolution, the only side in the argument that has offered to compromise its position has been the Christian side. I have yet to see the evolutionary camp temper it's teachings to include God anywhere in the equation of creation.

If I am wrong, then I challenge someone to prove to me that the godless Darwinists have ever compromised their position on evolution. If anything they have stiffened their resolve to convert all mankind to their atheistic system that excludes a Creator other than random chance. The evolutionary thinkers are not struggling to find a way to harmonize the events of Genesis 1-11 with the words of Darwin or Stephen J. Gould. They are beating the drum of "science" versus "religion" so loud that they cannot hear the evidence that some Christian apologists would try to get them to consider. Too often, those who present any evidence that makes a case for the Biblical account of creation are even ridiculed by Christians who believe in theistic evolution. In many cases they are ridiculed in the same way the ungodly Darwinists ridicule them. Well allow me to present a few reasons why I do not have enough faith to believe in the OEC's theistic evolutionary theory.

As I said, my article is not directed at anyone who does not claim to be a Christian, so I will not be addressing the scientific or geological particulars of evolution or of space and time. This is strictly a debate between Christians who claim to be Biblical “Young Earth Creationists”, and Christians who hold to the views of “Old Earth Creationism”, “Theistic evolutionism”, or the “Gap Theory”. However, before I present my reasons why I believe these beliefs are all wrong, I must distinguish the difference between "Macro-Evolution", and "Micro- Evolution".

Micro-evolution is not really evolution at all, it is just the simple variation within a species. What scientists describe as the prominence of genes being displayed within that species. This is what allows a family to have one child with blond hair and blue eyes, while the other has brown hair and brown eyes. The children have not evolved (they are still human), they simply differ in their dominant genes. In like manner, Christian micro-evolutionists believe that all dogs in the world today have evolved within the species from two dogs Noah brought onto the Ark, and all canines would be similar to every other animal of that species existing on the planet today.

Macro-evolution on the other hand refers to major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. Examples of this would be fish descending from an invertebrate animal, or whales descending from a land mammal. The evolutionary concept demands these bizarre changes, and this is the bases for which Darwin's theory has been propagated.

Now back to my reasons for disagreeing with theistic evolutionists. I find it sad that any Christian who would claim to hold to the truths of the Scriptures, could then turn around and say that they question the most basic and foundational truths revealed in the Scriptures such as: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1. In doing so, they are not merely questioning the curious mechanics and unique events of the creation week, but they are debating the very words and message of that week. Furthermore, to deny God created everything through Christ in a normal 6-day period is to question the very character and nature of God. It attributes to Him the evil, wasteful, chaotic, random, purposeless, death-filled processes of evolutionary "creation", that would make Him (God) the very Author and Sustainer of all that the theory of evolution demands. In my opinion those who attribute to the power of Satan any miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Holy Spirit, are in danger of committing Blasphemy. Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10

Another disturbing fact about having a belief in theistic evolution, would be the denial of the doctrine of Original Sin. Think about it, if suffering, death, and extinction are inevitable components of the evolutionary process, then it only follows that the doctrine of Original Sin makes no sense. Humans would had to have evolved into a world that was already filled with suffering and other forms of imperfection, such as hurricanes, floods, pain, and suffering. Ultimately, death would not be a punishment for sin because death would had to have always been a part of the cycle of life wich would have been needed for evolution to exist on earth. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, if humans are not responsible for suffering and evil, but instead death is simply a natural process rather than a punishment, what need is there for atonement and redemption? After all if man is not responsible for sin as the Bible says, then the Bible is wrong, and if the Bible is wrong why live by it's precepts?

Now I need to address the debate over the Hebrew word “Yom” or יום. Those who disagree with the literal translation of the Bible that claims God created everything in six literal earth days, use the argument that “yom” is sometimes used to describe an age or an era. I offer six reasons theistic evolutionists and OEC's are wrong in their interpretation of the record of Genesis.

1.) Moses repeats, “And there was evening and there was morning, one dayGenesis 1:5, Genesis 1:8, Genesis 1:13, Genesis 1:19, Genesis 1:23, Genesis 1:31.

2.) In the context of a 24 hour day, Moses again defines what he means by ”yom”, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holyExodus 20:11; Exodus 31:17.

3.) The Hebrew word for day, or “yom”, is used 1480 times in the Old Testament, and it is translated by some different 50 words. It can mean an indefinite time, but it is not used as an age of millions or billions of years. When "yom" is used with a numerical adjective, it always refers to a literal 24 hour day.

4.) The Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, the “Septuagint”, uses "hemera" or ἡμέρα, which normally means a 24 hour day such as, “And He was in the wilderness forty days”, not forty ages or eras. Mark 1:13.

5.) Furthermore, if Moses meant a period of long eons or ages, then the translators should have used the Greek word, "aion" or αἰών. which is the word Christ used when he gave His followers their marching orders for the great commission in Matthew12:20

“teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen
6.) The creation of Genesis involves Jesus Himself, because He was there when it happened. Jesus even stated that Moses interpretation of the record of Genesis was correct, and who are we to claim Jesus is a liar? Consider what happened the day the Pharisees confronted Him regarding marriage and asked Him about the legality of divorce in Mark 10:4-9;
"Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH SO THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER TWO, BUT ONE FLESH. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

So, from this exchange you can see that Jesus obviously agreed with Moses in his interpretation of the creation story, thus rejecting macro evolution and the Old Earth theory. Jesus specifically said, from the beginning He made them. He did not say, In the beginning he started the process. Jesus believed there was a definite beginning and that Moses did not write an allegorical story because the Israelites were to primitive to understand the truth. So if Jesus said so, why would anyone want to disagree with Him?

Also, those of you who are proponents of theistic evolution are walking a very thin line, because you also must deny the very existence of the Trinity.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.John 5:7
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Genesis 1:1
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him1 Corinthians 8:6
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.Colossians 1:15-17
You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.Psalm 104:30
And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Genesis 1:2.

The Scriptures, and an understanding of the texts, should be enough to prove to Christians that the Bible is right. When it comes to the debate with the godless Darwinists, we Christians are living in great times. Every day we find more evidence that proves the Scriptures are historically, archeologically, and scientifically correct. Now is not the time for us Christians to compromise our faith in God, for ultimately that is how we will be judged. Do you have enough faith in God to believe He is who He says He is, and that he can do what He said He would do? The faith of a mustard seed is all you need to throw a mountain into the sea, could you imagine the trembling of the Godless if we Christians had such faith?

I pray that those who have ears to hear will hear His voice and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen


TOPICS: Apologetics; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: amerscientifaffil; asalist; creation; gagdad; gagdadbob; gaptheory; onecosmos; scientism; theisticevolution; yec
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There was an article I posted from Answers Magazine that pointed out how conservative churches are losing their children to the ways of the world while they are still in Junior and Senior High school. They surveyed only conservative churches and found out that those churches who teach theistic evolution and teach the Bible in Sunday school classes like they were cute stories but give no hard historical evidence to back the stories up, do not properly prepare the children to withstand the secular lies of public education. Even many Christian private schools now teach theistic evolution.

I have heard many say that it is the parents job also to prepare the children, and while I do agree, part of the problem is that even many conservative Christian parents believe in theistic evolution. Any wonder the children lose their faith? How can we expect the children to grow up believing in the miracles of Jesus, thus in Jesus as being God Himself, when even conservative Christian adults compromise by saying that Darwin, not the Bible is right? And ultimately, how can we expect young children to keep their faith in the Scriptures and stay in the fold of Christianity, when their own parents hold to such beliefs as OEC, Theistic Evolution, and the Gap Theory?
1 posted on 10/11/2009 6:56:59 AM PDT by OneVike
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To: OneVike

As you have correctly posted this in the religion forum, where it belongs, I will respect your faith and not critique the article (though the title is bothersome; I know the author is trying to be cute, but surely no one thinks Darwin created anything other than an idea.)

I would, however, like to point out to those who continue to post endless creationist tracts in the “news” forum should take a tip from OneVike and post them ALL here, in religion.

Thank you.


2 posted on 10/11/2009 7:03:28 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Whenifhow; rom; Hanna548; leftyontheright; FrdmLvr; jblann1; SendShaqtoIraq; ...
My article ping.

This is my article on why I believe that Old Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution, and the Gap Theory is wrong.

This should be s good discussion and it needs to be had, so join in and give your two cents worth on this debate.

If anyone wants added or removed from my ping list please freepmail me.
3 posted on 10/11/2009 7:05:59 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

Just don’t have enough Faith to believe in Darwinism. Perhaps if after 150 yrs and all the kings men they found the missing link they might have some credibility. God is Great!

Pray for America and Our Troops


4 posted on 10/11/2009 7:08:54 AM PDT by bray (Hope and Corruption)
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To: OneVike
Humble people who seek the truth have a tendency to say "Who am I to think that I have all the answers? Perhaps my thinking needs to be modified just a bit. Perhaps my opponent's argument is not completely wrong."

Arrogant people who have an agenda have a tendency to say "I'm right. You're wrong. Shut up. Get off the stage. I'm prepared to say anything at all as long as I "win" this argument. I'm prepared to be a slippery fish and change my argument as often as needed to throw you off. The important thing is that you lose and I win."

I associate the second style of thinking with Leftists, and with supporters of Evolution. These people will not compromise, but they count very heavily on the idea that their opponents are likely to compromise and thereby incrementally lose the whole argument.

5 posted on 10/11/2009 7:12:24 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Play the Race Card -- lose the game.)
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To: OneVike
Those kids better look over their shoulders. Looks like that place is prone to some hellacious longhorn stampedes.


6 posted on 10/11/2009 7:14:00 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (This tagline excerpted. To read more, click on MyOverratedBlog.com)
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To: OneVike
In like manner, Christian micro-evolutionists believe that all dogs in the world today have evolved within the species from two dogs Noah brought onto the Ark,

Maybe he started with more but the Tyrannosaurs ate them.

7 posted on 10/11/2009 7:20:27 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: humblegunner

The tyrannosaurs were Korean?


8 posted on 10/11/2009 7:30:53 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (This tagline excerpted. To read more, click on MyOverratedBlog.com)
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To: humblegunner

The Great Lincoln-Darwin Debate

Part 1: http://tiny.cc/oWVcZ

Part 2: http://tiny.cc/WI2zO


9 posted on 10/11/2009 7:31:38 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (A Socialist becomes a Fascist the minute he tries to enforce his "beliefs" on the rest of us.)
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To: OneVike
Some verses to consider....

God clearly says that He created man and animals from dust (the dust of the earth). If He had used evolutioin, He certainly didn't indicate that.

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Gen 2:19 Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

Jesus taught that Adam and Eve were created. He even quotes the Scripture in Genesis, verifying that it is true.

Mat 19:3-5 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

Peter, which many see as the first pope, speaks of the Flood as a fact.

I Peter 3: 18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

II Peter 2:5 ...if he did not spare the ancient world, but(L) preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

II Peter 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.

Peter also speaks on the inspiration of Scripture.

II Peter 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In order for evolution to occur and the Flood to not be true, Scripture has to be declared a lie.

The issue most creationists have with the evolutionists is just that. And it then does raise the legitimate question about whether one can really be a Christian and not believe God's Word.

10 posted on 10/11/2009 7:33:38 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Gordon Greene; ColdWater; Liberty1970; spinestein; count-your-change; lefty-lie-spy; ...
I took your name from the thread titled Ho-Hum, Another Feathered Dinosaur. It was posted last week and the debate sparked my interest in writing this article. It is a direct result from a long discussion about evolution and creationism.

If interested then stop by if not then ignore this ping. If I have pinged you twice then I apologize.
11 posted on 10/11/2009 7:36:13 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: whattajoke; OneVike; Jim Robinson; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; valkyry1; Mr. Silverback; ...

Sheesh. How condescending. Who elected you owner of the forum?

Now that we have your approval for placement of the thread, do we have your permission to continue the discussion?

Are you going to take it on yourself to moderate and referee it as well?


12 posted on 10/11/2009 7:36:53 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom

I was thinking along the same line as you, thanks for saying what I was thinking...


14 posted on 10/11/2009 7:41:06 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: metmom

Why does it bother you that some people don’t think it’s an appropriate subject for political activism?


15 posted on 10/11/2009 7:45:26 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: metmom
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2349650/posts

Ultimately, like I stated in my article that is the choice we as Christians have. Do we believe He is who He says He is. If He is the Creator of the universe then we cannot disbelieve His word, for if we disbelieve His Word we disbelieve in Him. He Is The Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.John 1:103
Who are we to say He is wrong? By doing so we question His power and authority, thus like I said we then would be on the cusp of committing blasphemy.
16 posted on 10/11/2009 7:49:47 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: metmom

Yeah- the evos love posting hteir religious idea out in full public view- but mention God, creation or ANY evidence which refutes their religious ideas, and they go to pieces screaming about the threads beign in the ‘wrong forums’ DESPITE the fact that the threads contain science and discoveries that BELONG in the news sections- They can’t stand the fact that the news and discoveries are makign front page- and apparently feel that discussions abotu science that contain mentions of Creation are ‘ok’ but ONLY if buried in forums that noone visits much- that way their religious ideas about evolution are safe and snug from open criticism- it’s much like Darwkins refusing to debate Creationists- they simpyl can’t tolorate having hteir religious ideas criticised and exposed openly- Thank goodness though Jim runs htis site and not DC kids- science discussions and discoveries and opinions belong in front page discussions- this is somehtign hte DC kids are just goign to have to deal with- not sure they can though as they’ve been told over and over again by Jim that if they don;t like it they can take a hike


17 posted on 10/11/2009 7:51:37 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: metmom
Ooops!, I am not sure how I did that, but it was supposed to have a quote from what you wrote like this.

The issue most creationists have with the evolutionists is just that. And it then does raise the legitimate question about whether one can really be a Christian and not believe God's Word.

Ultimately, like I stated in my article that is the choice we as Christians have. Do we believe He is who He says He is. If He is the Creator of the universe then we cannot disbelieve His word, for if we disbelieve His Word we disbelieve in Him. He Is The Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.John 1:103
Who are we to say He is wrong? By doing so we question His power and authority, thus like I said we then would be on the cusp of committing blasphemy.
18 posted on 10/11/2009 7:52:20 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: tacticalogic

How clueless you are.....


19 posted on 10/11/2009 7:52:55 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Larry Lucido

And ronery too.


20 posted on 10/11/2009 7:53:04 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: OneVike

“There was an article I posted from Answers Magazine that pointed out how conservative churches are losing their children to the ways of the world while they are still in Junior and Senior High school.”

While “the ways of the world” implies the secular world, This article seems to make no mention of obviously money-grubbing TV preachers, and other dubious groups masquerading as “religion” as also contributing to the demise of religion.

In my opinion, those providing “false” religion are more of a threat that those that are secular. “false” religion does more to turn people away than the secular does to lure people away from conservative religion - and having a pool of non-religious folks offers the promise of enlightenment that can and should drive the faithful.


21 posted on 10/11/2009 7:55:16 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: metmom
How clueless you are.....

I have a clue that, if the usual rules pertaining to personal attacks and "mind reading" are in effect, there's going to be a lot of empty space in this thread before it's over with.

22 posted on 10/11/2009 7:55:47 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: metmom

Dawkins comes on TV, in news print, in magazines, on radio news shows etc, ranting about Creationists, foaming at the m outh, and htis is ‘news’, but let a Creation scientist present evidnece refuting evolution, and by golly the evos and atheists fall to pieces demanding censorship, or ‘fairness doctrine’, or ‘political activism’


23 posted on 10/11/2009 7:56:46 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: OneVike
And ultimately, how can we expect young children to keep their faith in the Scriptures and stay in the fold of Christianity, when their own parents hold to such beliefs as OEC, Theistic Evolution, and the Gap Theory?

While I am a Bible believer, I see nothing in scripture that proves there was not a gap between Gen. 1:2 and Gen. 1:3...Plus, there is scripture that does bolster that idea...

And, that 'idea' does not lead one away from God...On the contrary, it strengthens one's faith in that it resolves the problems, real or perceived, of the actual age of the earth while keeping with the rest of the creation story...

Regardless, the source of one questioning God's word and authority was Satan...Satan convinced Eve to question God's word and it stands to reason that everyone who questions God's word is being led by Satan...

24 posted on 10/11/2009 7:56:46 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: CottShop
hteir beign makign abotu simpyl hteir htis somehtign hte

These are the new words you have invented today.

25 posted on 10/11/2009 7:59:26 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Iscool

First off, there is no scripture that supports the gap theory, secondly, when children grow up thinking God is not the Creator and man is not the first to sin and thus death did not enter the world through Adam’s sin, you have made Go sand Christ a liar.

Let me ask if you even read the article that specifically answered your assertion? If so, then give me your evidence and I promise to proof it wrong.


26 posted on 10/11/2009 8:02:13 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: tacticalogic; OneVike

What? Are you threatening me with that post? Are you going to hit the abuse button on me because I observed that you didn’t understand the point of my post?

This is on the religion forum, yes.

So why are you here?


27 posted on 10/11/2009 8:04:07 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: tacticalogic; metmom

I fail to see why you would care to question anything anyone here says when you have not mentioned anything that this thread is about. Are you here just to start a fight?

If not, then why do you care what or where it is said unless like I said you just want a fight?


28 posted on 10/11/2009 8:08:42 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: metmom

I asked as simple question. - Why does it bother you that some people don’t think it’s an appropriate subject for political activism. It’s not an unusual POV, and there’s much in our political history to support the idea that it’s not something the government should be involved in.


29 posted on 10/11/2009 8:09:09 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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Do you mean things in the bible like the fact that God said there was no sin and spirit death BEFORE the fall of man? IF evolution were true, there would HAVE to be spirit death BEFORE the fall of man- The whoel word of God, and reason for Christ’s birth and death, was to redeam man from the sin ghe brought upon all mankind because he sinned against God when told not to- So no, there isn’t anythign in God’s word that supports theistic evolution

“CAN WE TRUST THE BIBLE?
In accepting evolution, liberal theologians reject a number of key Christian beliefs. They reject the traditional date and authorship of many books in the Bible, which in itself represents a drastic undercutting of confidence in Scripture. If we cannot trust the Bible when it makes simple claims about when and by whom it was written, can we trust it when it makes much more important spiritual claims?

In treating the Bible as though it must be cut and patched to convey a ‘true’ picture, liberal theologians are saying it is full of errors. If the Bible is full of errors, it obviously cannot be revelation from God.

Take Genesis, for example. Liberalism rejects the Bible’s own claim that God told Moses what to write (Exodus 24:4; Numbers 33:2; etc.). Instead, it assumes that Genesis is a collection of writings by authors living much later. These hypothetical authors (dubbed J, E, D, and P) were writing merely out of their own experience and convictions. An example can be found in Conrad Hyer’s book, The Meaning of Creation. He attributes the content of Genesis 1 and 2 not to God’s revelation, but to the life experiences and religious purposes of its hypothetical authors, presumably writing hundreds of years after Moses.1

WHERE DID EVIL COME FROM?
A contemporary of Darwin described the theological impact of evolution in these words:

‘The evolution of man from lower forms of life was in itself a new and startling fact, and one that broke up the old theology. I and my contemporaries, however, accepted it as fact. The first and obvious result of this experience was that we were compelled to regard the Biblical story of the Fall as not historic ... If there is no historic Fall, what becomes of the redemption, the salvation through Christ?’2

The Bible clearly tells us that evil, suffering, and death are real, so we are not escapist. However, evil is not intrinsic to the world. God created a good world. Evil entered by the free choice of individual human beings when Adam and Eve first sinned. So it is not contradictory to say that some day God will wipe out evil and sorrow.

This teaching is both our hope for the future and our basis for fighting evil today. The theistic evolutionist loses all this. By denying the Fall, he loses the Biblical answer to the question, where did evil and suffering come from?

Theistic evolution assumes that evil and death are intrinsic to God’s creation and have been there since the beginning. In other words, that God created them. God Himself is then the source of evil. But then God must be an evil God. To avoid this conclusion theistic evolutionists usually trivialize evil. This imperfect world is just a stepping stone to a better world which will evolve from it. Which brings us to the next point.

REDEEMED FROM WHAT?
If there was no Fall, why do we need redemption? If the problem is not our sin but our animal nature, then we only need to wait for evolution to raise us to the next stage.

I was talking to a young woman recently who summed it up well. The answer is so simple, she said, that we often overlook it. Jesus treated Genesis as though it actually happened, so that settles it. We may not be able to master a lot of complex arguments against theistic evolution, but even a child can grasp this one. Among those who claim to be Christians, Jesus’ own treatment of Genesis closes the question.”

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i1/god_evolution.asp

While the bible may be twisted and stretched to view long ages- doing so, one has to outright deny the whole context of God’s word, and compelte passages in order to do so- and even bring into question the whole message of God’s word of redemption


30 posted on 10/11/2009 8:12:19 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: tacticalogic; OneVike

It doesn’t bother me that some people don’t think that it’s an appropriate subject for a political forum. That isn’t what I commented about.

Read the post again. Several times, if you need to. What I said was clear enough to get the point across.

Others certainly got the point I was making.


31 posted on 10/11/2009 8:12:40 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: OneVike
I fail to see why you would care to question anything anyone here says when you have not mentioned anything that this thread is about. Are you here just to start a fight?

If someone wants to make their religious beliefs government policy, does that give you any reason to ask questions?

32 posted on 10/11/2009 8:15:39 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: metmom
It doesn’t bother me that some people don’t think that it’s an appropriate subject for a political forum.

That one apparently did.

33 posted on 10/11/2009 8:17:21 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic; metmom

Like I said, what pray-tell does anything you bring to the table have to do with the subject of this thread?

You like so many others see religion and never even read what the article says, but get on the defense and start attacking the reason for where or what it is doing here for.

So unless you want to partake in the debate between YEC and OEC, which by the way is a Christian in house debate, then go find another thread to disrupt.


34 posted on 10/11/2009 8:20:59 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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[[If someone wants to make their religious beliefs government policy,]]

The govenrment HAs made their religious beliefs govenrment policy, and as such, we have the right to question it- last we checked, religious beliefs are NOT banned in public discussions- however, folks seekign to push discussions involving religious precepts out of public view certainly would apparently like to have them banned, or at least buried. Till such a ban takes place, it’s certainyl reasonable to discuss issues affectign policy, and hte state of Christian views in science and politics, in public forums- I know that probably really grates on yours, and other DC folk’s nerves, but you all will carry on just fine, and hte world isn’t goign to crumble down around you when peopel openly discuss religion in public


35 posted on 10/11/2009 8:22:29 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: OneVike
So unless you want to partake in the debate between YEC and OEC, which by the way is a Christian in house debate, then go find another thread to disrupt.

That seems an odd statement from someone complaining about "self appointed moderators".

36 posted on 10/11/2009 8:24:15 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: CottShop
The govenrment HAs made their religious beliefs govenrment policy,

Do you consider this an example of the governemt making their religion public policy?

37 posted on 10/11/2009 8:30:50 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: CottShop
seekign certainyl affectign hte goign peopel

Here are some more words you have invented today.

38 posted on 10/11/2009 8:33:38 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: tacticalogic

Age dating beyond 5000 years or so IS a religious ideology based on assumptions using problem riddled methods that are also built upon religious assumptions about long ages- since hte govenrment has mandated that only long ages can be taught in schools, then yes, they are pushing a secular religious ideology under the guise of ‘science’


39 posted on 10/11/2009 8:34:23 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: humblegunner

Yes Yes, humblegunner- we ALL know I’m a lazt tyypist- this is common knowledge- so your johnny come lately ‘observations’ are a tad outdated- but thanks for playing- now run along


40 posted on 10/11/2009 8:36:52 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: OneVike

The Bible nowhere tells us how old the heavens and earth literally are. Peter says there are three different heaven/earth ages. And Peter also says that one day with the LORD is as a thousand years. And no flesh being has lived one day with the LORD. Methuselah is recorded as having lived 969 years, not quite that ‘day’ with the LORD.

Genesis 1:2 said there was a flood long before Noah was born in a flesh body. And Jeremiah and Peter both write about a flood before Noah’s time.

So your ‘term’ Old Earth Creationism is NOT against the WORD, it actually comes from the WORD.

Moses does not say that ‘Lucifer’ was created in Genesis, but he was there in the midst of the Garden with knowledge of good and evil. Now if everything made in the days of creation was good, where and when did this knowledge of good and evil the serpent whispered into the woman’s ear take place?

Now both Isaiah and Ezekiel tell of ‘Lucifer’ and even Ezekiel says that the king of Tyrus another name of the serpent, (among other names and roles) was in the Garden of Eden. So when was ‘Lucifer’ created? When did he rebel? and When was he sentenced to ‘death’ Hebrews 2:14. And when were the ‘souls/spirit’ created that partook of flesh and blood? As Paul describes in this same verse 2:14 of Hebrews. Genesis 1:2 is describing the ‘overthrow’ that Paul tells us about in Ephesians 1:4.

And NO I have no belief in ‘evolution’.


41 posted on 10/11/2009 8:37:35 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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Do you mean things in the bible like the fact that God said there was no sin and spirit death BEFORE the fall of man? IF evolution were true, there would HAVE to be spirit death BEFORE the fall of man- The whoel word of God, and reason for Christ’s birth and death, was to redeam man from the sin ghe brought upon all mankind because he sinned against God when told not to- So no, there isn’t anythign in God’s word that supports theistic evolution

“CAN WE TRUST THE BIBLE?
In accepting evolution, liberal theologians reject a number of key Christian beliefs. They reject the traditional date and authorship of many books in the Bible, which in itself represents a drastic undercutting of confidence in Scripture. If we cannot trust the Bible when it makes simple claims about when and by whom it was written, can we trust it when it makes much more important spiritual claims?

In treating the Bible as though it must be cut and patched to convey a ‘true’ picture, liberal theologians are saying it is full of errors. If the Bible is full of errors, it obviously cannot be revelation from God.

Take Genesis, for example. Liberalism rejects the Bible’s own claim that God told Moses what to write (Exodus 24:4; Numbers 33:2; etc.). Instead, it assumes that Genesis is a collection of writings by authors living much later. These hypothetical authors (dubbed J, E, D, and P) were writing merely out of their own experience and convictions. An example can be found in Conrad Hyer’s book, The Meaning of Creation. He attributes the content of Genesis 1 and 2 not to God’s revelation, but to the life experiences and religious purposes of its hypothetical authors, presumably writing hundreds of years after Moses.1

WHERE DID EVIL COME FROM?
A contemporary of Darwin described the theological impact of evolution in these words:

‘The evolution of man from lower forms of life was in itself a new and startling fact, and one that broke up the old theology. I and my contemporaries, however, accepted it as fact. The first and obvious result of this experience was that we were compelled to regard the Biblical story of the Fall as not historic ... If there is no historic Fall, what becomes of the redemption, the salvation through Christ?’2

The Bible clearly tells us that evil, suffering, and death are real, so we are not escapist. However, evil is not intrinsic to the world. God created a good world. Evil entered by the free choice of individual human beings when Adam and Eve first sinned. So it is not contradictory to say that some day God will wipe out evil and sorrow.

This teaching is both our hope for the future and our basis for fighting evil today. The theistic evolutionist loses all this. By denying the Fall, he loses the Biblical answer to the question, where did evil and suffering come from?

Theistic evolution assumes that evil and death are intrinsic to God’s creation and have been there since the beginning. In other words, that God created them. God Himself is then the source of evil. But then God must be an evil God. To avoid this conclusion theistic evolutionists usually trivialize evil. This imperfect world is just a stepping stone to a better world which will evolve from it. Which brings us to the next point.

REDEEMED FROM WHAT?
If there was no Fall, why do we need redemption? If the problem is not our sin but our animal nature, then we only need to wait for evolution to raise us to the next stage.

I was talking to a young woman recently who summed it up well. The answer is so simple, she said, that we often overlook it. Jesus treated Genesis as though it actually happened, so that settles it. We may not be able to master a lot of complex arguments against theistic evolution, but even a child can grasp this one. Among those who claim to be Christians, Jesus’ own treatment of Genesis closes the question.”

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i1/god_evolution.asp

While the bible may be twisted and stretched to view long ages- doing so, one has to outright deny the whole context of God’s word, and compelte passages in order to do so- and even bring into question the whole message of God’s word of redemption


42 posted on 10/11/2009 8:39:22 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop
It's what the science says. If it's your contention that's a religion, then we've got a theological disagreement.

Science is not a religion.

43 posted on 10/11/2009 8:40:50 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic
Science is not a religion.

But evolution is not science and evolution is a 'religion'!

44 posted on 10/11/2009 8:43:41 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: tacticalogic; metmom

I wasn’t complaining, but I did understand metmom’s point and agree. However, I ask again, “Why do you care?”

This was to be a discussion about the belief of creationism vs evolution inside the Christian realm.

I say again, if you want to discuss the point of the thread then do so. I am finished discussing any other matter with you here. Save it for another thread, then if I am involve3d I may then take up the debate, but not here and not now!

I will say that ColdWater is correct about the idea that we Christians are expected to sit off to the side and shut up lest we get in the way of your secular right to run the world. Well I’ll tell you what, the secularists have not done a very good job with out GOD!


45 posted on 10/11/2009 8:44:13 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Just mythoughts

Wrong! Nowhere can you justify those verses to say what you want them to say. Also, by believing in the OEC you must accept evolution. Evolution involves a lot more then just animals birds and humans, it also involves the planet. To say you believe in the OEC theory and Gap Theory but not evolution is absurd.


46 posted on 10/11/2009 8:50:17 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: CottShop
Darwkins

LOL. Not sure whether that's a typo or a deliberate pun, but I like it.

47 posted on 10/11/2009 8:50:37 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Just mythoughts
But evolution is not science and evolution is a 'religion'!

Evolution and Earth Age are two different questions. There is no mention of evolution in the USGS publication.

48 posted on 10/11/2009 8:51:09 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: CottShop

I’ll run where I please.


49 posted on 10/11/2009 8:58:58 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: humblegunner; CottShop

It seems you enjoy mocking disabilities. Cottshop, to me, appears to have at least some degree of dyslexia. It’s a tough read at times, but he does make valuable contributions.

Are there any other disabilities that you’d like to mock, on the Religion Forum of all places? And, just what is the point of doing so? Personal ridicule?


50 posted on 10/11/2009 9:02:23 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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