Mary is the star that guides us to holiness, says Holy Father during Angelus [Catholic Caucus]

cna ^ | October 11, 2009

[NYer]

Vatican City, Oct 11, 2009 / 11:27 am (CNA).- Presiding over the Sunday Angelus prayer following the canonization Mass for five new saints, Pope Benedict XVI stressed that "the Virgin Mary is the star that guides" every area of holiness."

In several languages, the Pope thanked the faithful from all around the world who were in attendance at the Mass of canonization. He also remarked that Mary’s fiat – her "yes" - makes her a "model of perfect adherence to the divine will."

The Holy Father then greeted the English-speaking pilgrims present for the canonization. "May these new saints accompany you with their prayers and inspire you by the example of their holy lives."

He also addressed "a group of survivors of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki," and prayed "that the world may never again witness such mass destruction of innocent human life."

"May God bless all of you, as well as your families and loved ones at home."

Finally, the Pope encouraged everyone present to look at "the Mother of Christ with filial trust, asking for her intercession and that of the new saints" for the Church to bring "peace and salvation."

[steve86]

Quit trying to convert Salvation back to Protestantism

[OpusatFR]

This is a caucus thread.

[JPII Be Not Afraid]

I guess I don't have a problem believing that those who die in God's Grace are in heaven. If you remember right, Jesus was seen speaking to Elijah and Moses who were dead, not to mention He told the good thief, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Doesn't sound like he was put in a lock box until Jesus was to return. Well, not to me anyway.

"praying for a dead person is not only fruitless, it is against God’s will"

Boy you must be looking for a good fight today. Now you must be asking about purgatory. Well, I can argue about that if you would like, but first why don't you do a little research on the subject yourself, using a completed bible. Not a bible that has been rewritten for some persons religious preference. A bible that has been the same for about 1700 years. You will be amazed at what you will find in there, especially on the subject of praying for those who have died. You might do well by reading 2 Maccabees 12:44-46.

[presently no screen name]

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't ask. It never hurts to ask as many people as we can to intercede for us.

Maybe because God tells us differently. How about doing what we are told to do! Our ways are not God's ways. Not doing as HE commanded is disobedience! God didn't ask us what we think, He commanded us to obey!

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, Who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me..

The Bible says, "If we ask anything according to God's will, HE hears us. And if we know that HR hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the request which we have asked from Him."

[Mad Dawg]

Understanding the Bible will give you the same understanding I have.

Logically it follows that anyone who disagrees with you does not understand the Bible.

And what makes that interesting is that we already knew (a) that you disagreed with us and (b) that you thought you were right. So this statement is nothing more than another way of saying there's a disagreement.

Okay. No argument there.

[Mad Dawg]

Not only does no single one of your quotes command us NOT to ask others to intercede for us, but elsewhere we are told to intercede for others, while if you were correct that the intercessions of anyone save Christ were ineffective Paul would just tell us to tell others to pray to Jesus for themselves.

Do you pray for others?

I know of no one who prays the Rosary or makes other prayers to Mary who thinks that anyone comes to the Father except by Jesus. I pray the Rosary almost daily. I think that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus.

So the "Way the Truth and the Life" saying doesn't seem relevant to our practice or beliefs.

[JPII Be Not Afraid]

I guess in your bible it doesn't, but my bible, the one preserved and protected by the church for 1700 years, it states that is something we should do. All Christians belong to the Body of Christ and the body of Christ is not dead, so those Christians who have died are not dead, but alive in Christ.

2 Maccabees 12:43-46:
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.


I guess it all depends on who's authority you trust. Do you rely on the private judgment of Luther, who also wanted to throw out Ester, James and Revelation and didn't have a problem with adding a word or two if it suited his purpose, or do you accept the divinely protected judgment of the Catholic Church who used her authority around 1700 years ago to determine the official canon of the Bible. This is the same Bible (less the 7 books) used by Protestants to attack the very authority of the Church who gave it to them.

If you want to get technical and everything.

[JPII Be Not Afraid]

What do you tell people who ask you to pray for them? Do you tell them to make the direct prayer themselves, because God only wants to hear from the one needing the prayer. What a shame, because we are asked to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Mad Dawg]

Prove to me the Bible tells us to pray to the dead.

I call foul.

In post #7 you said:
All the dead are still dead until Jesus Christ’s return.
JPII Be Not Afraid argued, from Scripture no less, against THAT proposition. So instead of EITHER dealing with that question - which, if you had proved it would effectively damage our case OR admitting that maybe your case on that topic wasn't as strong as you made it out to be, you switch to another proposition: whether the Bible says to pray for the dead, forbids it, or is silent.

What is the point here? Is it to take a bunch of scattered incoherent shots at our doctrine or to examine it, understand what we really teach and believe and why, and then and only then argue against it?

In addition, while you are wringing your hands with eager (if premature) condemnation of our alleged pagan ways and thought, you might also consider that we think that Bible has more books in the OT than most Protestants think AND we "argue from Scripture" in a different way from many Protestants because we don't hold with "sola Scriptura."

Finally, to come into a discussion, say, more or less "I think you are wrong, pagan, cult-y and generally icky," and then insist that we prove we aren't is going to garner, I'd bet, more laughter than discussion.

[Mad Dawg]

Wow. I didn't notice, myself! I will be silent then against the mockers.

I would like to know more about the other guys the Pope canonized. I mean other than Fr. Damian.

[Mad Dawg]

J2P2: we’re messing up. This is a Caucus thread. We don’t have to engage these targets.

[OpusatFR]

“Well I’m a Lutheran...”

Exactly. And that is what’s wrong with your belief.