WONDERS OF WONDERS ARE IN MY NAME " JESUS " !

No.

I have no reason to think you are not a Chrisitian.

For all I know, you could well be ‘Spirit-filled.’

“My” gospel is the standard New Testament Doctrines of The Faith. Christ came in the flesh . . . etc.

I don’t believe the A O G doctrine that only those who speak in tongues are Filled with The Spirit.

However, I agree with Billy Graham, that we leak and need daily refilling.

And, that rebelion, idolatry etc. can cause Holy Spirit to at least not be functioning within a person’s life at a “filled” level.

I believe the church has ebbed and flowed with the amount of authentic beilevers as well as the anointedness and giftings of the leaders.

I believe God’s ideal is for all the gifts to be operating in each congregation and each meeting more or less on a regular basis.

I don’t know how inexperienced you are. You sound like quite a mixture who’s wondered through variouis perspectives and experiences on it all.

Sometimes your assertions sound perceptive and experienced and Biblical . . . and even knowledgeable of the Spirit in our era . . . and sometimes too not, for my comfort.

Your current attitude and inptus on this thread are not overwhelmingly impressive to me.

Your perspective sounds like it’s fairly narrow and rigid . . . and even a bit . . . haughty.

The teaching to Corinth came because they were going bonkers over gifts. They sought the spectacular gifts for their own show.

His instruction was that tongues was the least of the gifts, and that they should strive for the greatest - They should strive.

No, the prophets were given revelation.

That is the meaning of "endowed".

And in the early days of the church, with no New Testament and probably not a lot of Old Testaments in the hands of believers, that revelation was critical. With people claiming that grace made 'free sin' possible, someone needed to counteract it - and needed to do so, in many cases, without scripture available to them.

That has *nothing* to do with revealing. The prophets reveal the prophets. They reveal that which is hidden and sealed.

That day has passed. I have 'God-breathed' revelation on my shelves, and it is "able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus", and is useful to "thoroughly equip" "the man of God" "for every good work." - 2 Tim 3

I have no argument with that - but it is not all revealed. Nor will it be until Christ comes in glory. The Prophecy is still unrolling right before our eyes - and will continue until the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Unless you care to make the argument that the 7th trump hath sounded, the mystery of God continues even yet.

Who is revealing the prophecy to the Body, but those with the Spirit and the gift of prophecy upon them?

You seem to have little regard for the power of God.

Quite the other way around. I am in utter amazement at the power of the Great I AM. And more than that, I know Him to be ever faithful to those who love Him, and ever merciful, over and again, even to the least of His servants, even one such as I.

Even so, Because I know His mighty Hand, and His faithfulness and mercy, I expect to see His power displayed, even as He has promised us - And I do see it all the time, in my own life, and in the testimony of others, much like me.

The church is the body of Christ, and Christ is its Head. Do you REALLY think Jesus has been defeated?

Not all who are called Israel are Israel. I say that to you as an exhortation, not an accusation. I mean for you, and others, to recall that Israel thought that they were doing right by the Lord, and totally missed the time of their calling. Many probably went right on with their day, not even bothering to worry much about that weirdo Rabbi they crucified... worrying too much about keeping the laws and rites of men, and hurrying about, caught up in the needs of daily life.

The gifts of the Spirit are GIFTS, which are given by the Holy Spirit! Where is your faith? Do you believe Satan has hog-tied the Holy Spirit? Do you believe Satan has defeated Jesus Christ?

The way to hell is broad and straight. The way to heaven is rocky and narrow.

I KNOW that Christ is arisen. I KNOW He IS come in the flesh, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father, Almighty. I KNOW He is the High Priest of the order of Melchizedek, and the Head of all powers and principalities.

He promised us that we would do greater things than He, once He ascended, because once He ascended, He would send His Spirit. I believe Him. Do you?

Because that is the inescapable conclusion of what you wrote.

No, it is not.

Do you think the Southern Baptist Convention can overpower God, and prevent the Holy Spirit from giving someone the gift of prophecy?

I don't think anyone can overpower God.

I've argued a fair bit with Catholics, but do you really believe, in the darkest days of the Catholic Church, when there were a string of Godless men as Popes, and indulgences were for public sale, do you REALLY believe no one was faithful? That God had been utterly defeated?

Nope. The Spirit was doing a mighty work then. I think the Catholics were persecuting the true Church according to prophecy, and the Anglicans right after them.

Remember Christ said that His Church would always be persecuted and ridiculed.

I don't. Remember Elijah? "I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too." - 1 Kings 19 But God said, "Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."

Sure I remember Elijah. And Obediah. And I remember Jezebel.

God has never been defeated. Satan doesn't have Him in a headlock. The Spirit moves as He wills, and gives the gifts He chooses when and where He wills.

Where? They are Gifts to the Church. WHERE ARE THEY?

If you read the Old Testament, you will realize that miracles and prophets were NOT evenly distributed. At times they were common, and at times they were not.

That is not exactly true. There were always prophets. There were always men of God. God would "dry up" the prophets that the king and the people were listening to, but that did not mean that His prophets were not there. The people weren't looking for them, or didn't want to hear them.

Besides, the New Covenant pours out the Spirit on all men. There should be way MORE evidence of Spirit than there was in the past, not way less.

There were no prophets during the 400 years before Christ's incarnation.

That is not true.

I'm enough of a Calvinist to believe in the sovereignty of God. If God wants me to work a miracle, I will. If he wants me to speak in tongues, I will. If he doesn't, then only sinful pride would lead me to imitate it.

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

You want to know why there aren't more miracle workers walking the streets? Ask God. He is the one who decides.

I don't need the answer. I know the answer. I want you, and the other detractors hereon, to seek it out.

Not you. Buck up, and strengthen your faith. God hasn't lost squat to anyone.

LOL!

“The prophets reveal the prophets. They reveal that which is hidden and sealed.”

Umm...not quite. The Prophets declare the word of God.

“I have no argument with that - but it is not all revealed.”

Actually, enough has been revealed to thoroughly equip the man of God for EVERY good work.

What is the mystery of God?

There are a variety of possibilities. I think Revelations was intended to have multiple meanings, which is why it has brought comfort to so many for 2000 years. However, consider these:

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.”

Please note what is the “stewardship from God that was given to [Paul] for you” - “to make the word of God fully known”. Think about it.

Meanwhile, what is “the mystery of God [that] would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets”?

I don’t know, but it is at least possible it refers to the Church of God, which is of course ongoing.

“Who is revealing the prophecy to the Body, but those with the Spirit and the gift of prophecy upon them?”

Well, teachers and preachers could. Unless, of course, you argue that your modern day prophets are busy revealing what John said would remain sealed for some time to come.

You see, to say there are things which haven’t been revealed to us - and I totally agree that is true - is NOT the same as to say that modern day prophets are or CAN reveal them to us.

What does predestination involve, and how did the elect become the elect? Beats me! Nor do I think God will reveal that to modern prophets, any more than He did to Peter or Paul or John. And when we get to heaven, my guess is that we’ll understand enough to know the question has no value.

“Not all who are called Israel are Israel. I say that to you as an exhortation, not an accusation. “

Of course not. However, that line of argument leads to either your claiming I haven’t received the Holy Spirit, or that I’m ignoring Him, while you are not. And that cuts both ways...

“Nope. The Spirit was doing a mighty work then. I think the Catholics were persecuting the true Church according to prophecy, and the Anglicans right after them. Remember Christ said that His Church would always be persecuted and ridiculed.”

Since I’m reading a book about William Tyndale, I’m inclined to agree. However, William Tyndale did a great thing for God, and God honored it. Tyndale’s final words were, “Lord! Open the King of England’s eyes.” Within 4 years, King Henry VIII ensured that an English bible was taken to every church in England, and chained there so that any could come read it.

But William Tyndale WAS strangled and burned. He had no miraculous escape. He didn’t speak in tongues. He didn’t heal the sick. He didn’t claim to be a Prophet of God, revealing mysteries that had previously been hidden.

If the True Israel is filled with Prophets, and miracle workers, and Apostles - where are they, and where have they been for 2000 years?

If you barely know enough Prophets - by your own account - to serve in ONE congregation, then where are they? The only conclusion is that God has been defeated. Or you are wrong.

“Besides, the New Covenant pours out the Spirit on all men. There should be way MORE evidence of Spirit than there was in the past, not way less.”

Either there is, or there isn’t. Either there are LOTS of divine healers, healing the blind, restoring limbs, raising the dead, or there are not. Either there are LOTS of Prophets, receiving divine revelation apart from scripture, or there are not. Either the Holy Spirit is manifested in ways you don’t accept, or there are a lot of spectacular miracle workers running around unnoticed, or God has been beaten.

“I don’t need the answer. I know the answer. I want you, and the other detractors hereon, to seek it out.”

The answer is you are wrong.

Umm...not quite. The Prophets declare the word of God.

Of course they do. But as part of that, they also reveal the work of prior prophets. The Prophecy is one single, organic piece.

Actually, enough has been revealed to thoroughly equip the man of God for EVERY good work.

That is not the point of the Prophecy, nor it's function.

There are a variety of possibilities. I think Revelations was intended to have multiple meanings, which is why it has brought comfort to so many for 2000 years.

I think ALL of the Prophecy is dualistic - One can see alignments in it over and over again. It is not fulfilled until it is fulfilled in every aspect, in a single event.

Please note what is the “stewardship from God that was given to [Paul] for you” - “to make the word of God fully known”. Think about it.

I don't have to think about it. I get what you are saying. Get what I am saying: The spirit of antichrist was working in the church even in Paul's day.

It isn't that I do not have faith in the power of God to overcome the adversary, but neither will I underestimate the adversary in the least. Looking to the Prophecy and to history, one can clearly see that the tools preferred by the adversary are "paganism" and "doctrines of men".

Over and over we have seen it happen. Many times, from the Patriarchs down through both Houses of Israel, and into the Catholics.

Now, God has gone "open source", since the printing press, and a seemingly more distributed model, with schisms in both the Protestant and Liturgical Churches... To a degree, that non-homogeneity is good, as no particular denomination gets the upper hand anymore.

But do you really suppose that the visible church is not every bit as susceptible to the very same tools Ol' Scratch has been using since the beginning?

And the very first thing to go when he begins to distort and raise up his antichrists is not the teachers and the ministers. The first thing to go are the prophets. Teachers can be swayed. Ministers can be influenced by the teachers. The prophets will not move. Look to your Bible and see this pattern. Without revelation, there is no direct communication for correction

The primary break is in the split between the Apostolic Church (The Way), and the take over of Rome (when the seat of the Church "became" Rome). What happened? No more persecution. But no more prophets either. And all kinds of excuses why all the gifts of the Spirit were not around anymore.

Well, teachers and preachers could. Unless, of course, you argue that your modern day prophets are busy revealing what John said would remain sealed for some time to come.

There is no part of the Prophecy which will not be done by Christ's coming in Glory (except those parts which speak to shortly thereafter). I don't understand what you think is to remain sealed. As the time grows nearer, more becomes known, and more can be discerned.

Hallelujah! I couldn't agree more, although I rather think it WILL matter, and will be far grander than anyone ever suspected. At any rate, it is well and good that we do not dwell upon things which ARE the mysteries of God, and which are not revealed to us. It creates confusion. Better to admit we don't know. An excellent point of yours, that all here can learn from.

Of course not. However, that line of argument leads to either your claiming I haven’t received the Holy Spirit, or that I’m ignoring Him, while you are not. And that cuts both ways...

Not at all. I am speaking to an apostate church, not the members in it. Even as there WAS "Israel" within apostate Israel, so I would suppose there are believers scattered throughout all the branches and denominations of the visible church.

But I do know that receiving the Holy Spirit is not something one would forget. If one cannot point to "that day" (and I know many, many who cannot), then I question that they have, in fact, received the Spirit at all.

If you took that more personally than that, it was unintended.

Since I’m reading a book about William Tyndale, I’m inclined to agree. However, William Tyndale did a great thing for God, and God honored it.

I am not critical of the Protestant fathers for the sake of being critical. I think the Protestant Reformation was, and still is, a critical part of God's plan. The creeds and doctrines developed at that time were far better than the horrid conditions which caused the Reformation to be necessary - I believe that God provided for that Reformation, and for the wilderness that the Reformation ultimately escaped to - But everyone knows the errors and compromises that exist therein, which is why the Protestants remain splintered and diverse.

Furthermore, those doctrines and creeds remain, calcified, preserving those errors and enshrining them, for hundreds of years now, even as the Prophecy has unfolded, and knowledge has increased. At what point can the Protestants now claim any "truth" over the Catholics? Aren't their traditions more important to them than the five solas that they so bravely stood upon when they sought to remove themselves from heresy?

If the True Israel is filled with Prophets, and miracle workers, and Apostles - where are they, and where have they been for 2000 years?

They are there, if you'd care to search them out. It took me a very long time to believe and to seek out others who do also. But they are there.

And my own life bears witness to spectacular miracles and visions by the Spirit, and others that I know too. Miraculous healings have come to me, my daughter, my father, and my brother in-law, and many of my friends.

Our Father is faithful to those who trust in Him, and the Spirit works wonders every day. I would encourage y'all to seek out the evidence thereof, for there you will also find the salt of the earth.

But don't look where you'd expect to find such things. God has chosen the foolish things of the world. Seek for Him in humble places that the world ridicules; not in cathedrals or colleges, and places of learned men.

Either the Holy Spirit is manifested in ways you don’t accept, or there are a lot of spectacular miracle workers running around unnoticed, or God has been beaten.

I accept ANY way the Spirit will manifest. But the Bible teaches that He gives to each according to his faith. Ergo, churches which do not expect much, teach their flock not to expect much. Where the Power of God is accepted, taught, and expected, the Spirit pours out like rain.

The answer is you are wrong.

Hmm. Now do I believe you, or my own lyin' eyes and my own healed body? Do I believe you, or the witness of my own walk in the Spirit, and the witness and testimony of many, many others?

This is not even a contest. I know what I know. I am trying to bear witness to you.

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