Posted on 10/25/2009 1:24:33 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg
Lack of Turning around going the other way. Change of heart change of direction without not repentance there is no conversion there is no good news period.
so is this one of the reasons so many churches today embrace homosexuality and abortion? Can a Christian accept abortion and live a gay lifestyle but still feel confident in the no need to repent doctrine?
OK, if you are talking about the Biblical justice system then that is fine and we can go from there.
FK: In any event, even with your use of "acquittal" you are forgetting the fact that when an acquittal is rendered then NO ONE pays any price.
No, I have not forgotten that. That's why the the Church teaches two gospels, one false, and one true. You cannot combine acquittal with the actual payment of the penalty, because you are right, that with an acquittal there is no penalty to be paid! With the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" or "active obedience" the discovery process is corrupted and changed into a lie. The "believer" is not found a sinner. Somehow Justice is blinded. Logically this leads to no need for a penalty, because the judge is going to find no guilt. Thus this concept conflicts with the true gospel. (emphasis added)
I disagree. I am a Reformer and I don't think imputed righteousness means that at all. Imputed righteousness recognizes that there is no righteousness in us, the righteousness that is imputed is 100% that of Christ and none from ourselves. Therefore, there is no finding that we are not sinners. We obviously ARE sinners. The finding is that SINCE we are sinners the only hope we have is if Christ's righteousness is credited to our account. His righteousness alone satisfies the penalty that we owe. We would not owe anything if we were not sinners.
With the true gospel the sinner is found guilty, and in eternity, it will always be a truism that so and so saved person was guilty of sin in the present age. The difference is that that person repented and Christ paid the penalty for him so he could be pardoned. But that doesn't change the legal finding of the saved persons guilt. So the Church teaches two gospels, somewhat mixed up I agree. The question is which one are you going to believe.
From other of your posts I have gathered that you think it is a key point that Reformers, et al., who follow the "false gospel" think that repentance is unnecessary or somehow unimportant. Nothing could be further from the truth. Here are some excerpts from Repentance: According to 2 Corinthians 7:11 - John Calvin --- Institutes of the Christian Religion Vol 3 pages 76-86 . Please forgive the length, but I think this is very important to your apparent position:
.......... 19. REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS ARE INTERRELATED b Now if it is true - a fact abundantly clear - b(a) that the whole of the gospel is contained under these two headings, repentance and forgiveness of sins, do we not see that the Lord freely justifies his own in order that he may at the same time restore them to true righteousness by sanctification of his Spirit? a John, a messenger sent before the face of Christ to prepare his ways [ Matthew 11:10], proclaimed: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near" [ Matthew 3:2; 4:17, Vg.]. By inviting them to repentance, he admonished them to recognize that they were sinners, and their all was condemned before the Lord, that they might with all their hearts desire the mortification of their flesh, and a new rebirth in the Spirit. By proclaiming the Kingdom of God, he was calling them to faith, for by the Kingdom of God, which he taught was at hand, he meant the forgiveness of sins, salvation, life, and utterly everything that we obtain in Christ. Hence we read in the other Evangelists: "John came preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" [ Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3]. What else is this than that they, weighed down and wearied by the burden of sins, should turn to the Lord and conceive a hope of forgiveness and salvation? So, also, Christ entered upon his preaching: "The Kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the gospel" [ Mark 1:15 p.]. First he declares that the treasures of God's mercy have been opened in himself; then he requires repentance; finally, trust in God's promises. Therefore, when he meant to summarize the whole gospel in brief, he said that he "should suffer rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name" [ Luke 24:26, 46-47]. And after his resurrection the apostles preached this: "God raised Jesus…to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins" [ Acts 5:30-31]. Repentance is preached in the name of Christ when, through the teaching of the gospel, men hear that all their thoughts, all their inclinations, all their efforts, are corrupt and vicious. Accordingly, they must be reborn if they would enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Forgiveness of sins is preached when men are taught that for them Christ became redemption, righteousness, b(a) salvation, and life [1 Corinthians 1:30], by whose name they are freely accounted righteous and innocent in God's sight. b Since both kinds of grace are received by faith, as I have elsewhere proved, still, because the proper object of faith is God's goodness, by which sins are forgiven, it was expedient that it should be carefully distinguished from repentance.
20. IN WHAT SENSE IS REPENTANCE THE PRIOR CONDITION OF FORGIVENESS? a Now the hatred of sin, which is the beginning of repentance, first gives us access to the knowledge of Christ, who reveals himself to none but poor and afflicted sinners, who groan, toil, are heavy-laden, hunger, thirst, and pine away with sorrow and misery b(a) [ Isaiah 61:1-3; Matthew 11:5, 28; Luke 4:18]. Accordingly, we must strive toward repentance itself, devote ourselves to it throughout life, and pursue it to the very end if we would abide in Christ. b For he came to call sinners, but it was to repentance [cf. Matthew 9:13]. He was sent to bless the unworthy, but in order that every one may turn from his wickedness [ Acts 3:26; cf. Acts 5:31]. Scripture is full of such testimonies. For this reason, when God offers forgiveness of sins, he usually requires repentance of us in turn, implying that his mercy ought to be a cause for men to repent. He says, "Do judgment and righteousness, for salvation has come near." [ Isaiah 56:1 p.] Again, "A redeemer will come to Zion, and to those in Jacob who repent of their sins." [ Isaiah 59:20.] Again, "Seek the Lord while he can be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked man forsake his way and the unrighteousness of his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him." [ Isaiah 55:6-7 p.] Likewise, "Turn again, and repent, that your sins may be blotted out." [ Acts 3:19.] Yet we must note that this condition is not so laid down as if our repentance were the basis of our deserving pardon, but rather, because the Lord has determined to have pity on men to the end that they may repent, he indicates in what direction men should proceed if they wish to obtain grace. Accordingly, so long as we dwell in the prison house of our body we must continually contend with the defects of our corrupt nature, indeed with our own natural soul. a Plato sometimes says that the life of a philosopher is a meditation upon death; but we may more truly say that the life of a Christian man is a continual effort and exercise in the mortification of the flesh, till it is utterly slain, and God's Spirit reigns in us. Therefore, I think he has profited greatly who has learned to be very much displeased with himself, not so as to stick fast in this mire and progress no farther, but rather to hasten to God and yearn for him in order that, having been engrafted into the life and death of Christ, he may give attention to continual repentance. b Truly, they who are held by a real loathing of sin cannot do otherwise. For no one ever hates sin unless he has previously been seized with a love of righteousness. a This thought, as it was the simplest of all, so has it seemed to me to agree best with the truth of Scripture.(Sins for which there is no repentance or pardon, 21-25)
21. REPENTANCE AS GOD'S FREE GIFT e Further, that repentance is a singular gift of God I believe to be so clear from the above teaching that there is no need of a long discourse to explain it. Accordingly, the church praises God's benefit, and marvels that he "granted repentance to the Gentiles unto salvation" [ Acts 11:18, cf. 2 Corinthians 7:10]. And Paul bids Timothy be forbearing and gentle toward unbelievers: If at any time, he says, God may give them repentance to recover from the snares of the devil [ 2 Timothy 2:25- 26]. Indeed, God declares that he wills the conversion of all, and he directs exhortations to all in common. Yet the efficacy of this depends upon the Spirit of regeneration. For it would be easier for us to create men than for us of our own power to put on a more excellent nature. Accordingly, in the whole course of regeneration, we are with good reason called "God's handiwork, created… for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" [ Ephesians 2:10, cf. Vg.]. Whomsoever God wills to snatch from death, he quickens by the Spirit of regeneration. Not that repentance, properly speaking, is the cause of salvation, but because it is already seen to be inseparable from faith and from God's mercy, when, as Isaiah testifies, "a redeemer will come to Zion, and to those in Jacob who turn back from iniquity" [ Isaiah 59:20].
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So Reformers see repentance as important and necessary, a part of faith, and a gift from God. No Reformer I know would say that one could have true faith without repentance. I don't know anyone who would subscribe to what you call the false gospel.
KJV 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Absolutely. They have taken the doctrine that God does not see sin, but only sees righteousness in their account for an acquittal as meaning that repentance is unnecessary. There are other Christians who believe the false doctrine, but who are not so stupid as to live by it, because they really know that God is not blind to sin. You see, if one is not found guilty, then there is nothing to repent of.
Can a Christian accept abortion and live a gay lifestyle but still feel confident in the no need to repent doctrine?
They may feel confident, but if it is based on a false doctrine, then how reliable is it? This is the biblical basis for assurance:
KJV 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Here is your major proof text:
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God reckons justice without works,
You will see that I corrected the translation. JUSTICE = the penalty paid, not moral righteousness. After you admit the following definition may be valid --even for the sake of argument, then we will continue:
No I was never stupid enough to go to "Geneva". Remember, they burn people at the Stake.
Whatever.
At what point, according to your sect (which, for all we know, may just be you), did Christ's church go off the rails?
How's that Lawkeeping coming?
if by that one verse, you are saying salvation is gained by obedience to the laws, you are indeed speaking of the cursed Gospel. you would have to throw out a lot of other scriptures.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, "Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven." The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, "I believe." This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.
Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn't ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn't know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.
Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate.
Now justice is just such a faith. It is called God's justice or that justice which is valid in God's sight, because it is God who gives it and reckons it as justice for the sake of Christ our Mediator. It influences a person to give to everyone what he owes him. Through faith a person becomes sinless and eager for God's commands. Thus he gives God the honor due him and pays him what he owes him. He serves people willingly with the means available to him. In this way he pays everyone his due. Neither nature nor free will nor our own powers can bring about such a justice, for even as no one can give himself faith, so too he cannot remove unbelief. How can he then take away even the smallest sin? Therefore everything which takes place outside faith or in unbelief is lie, hypocrisy and sin (Romans 14), no matter how smoothly it may seem to go.
Or as in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith:
16.1 Good works are only those which God has commanded in his holy Word. [1] Works which do not have such warrant, and are invented by people out of blind zeal or on pretense of good intentions, are not good works. [2]
1. Micah 6:8 Romans 12:2 Hebrews 13:21 Colossians 2:3 2 Timothy 3:16-17 2. Matthew 15:9 with Isaiah 29:13 1 Peter 1:18 Romans 10:2 John 16:2 1 Samuel 15:21-23 1 Corinthians 7:23 Galatians 5:1 Colossians 2:8,16-23
16.2 These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidence of a true and living faith. [1] By them believers express their thankfulness, [2] strengthen their assurance, [3] edify their brethren, [4] enhance their profession of the Gospel, [5] and silence the opponents [of the Gospel]. [6] So they glorify God whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus to do good works [7] and to produce the fruits of holiness which lead to eternal life. [8]
1. James 2:18,22 Galatians 5:6 1 Timothy 1:5 2. Psalms 116:12-14 1 Peter 2:9,12 Luke 7:36-50 with Matthew 26:1-11 3. 1 John 2:3,5 1 John 3:18-19 2 Peter 1:5-11 4. 2 Corinthians 9:2 Matthew 5:16 5. Matthew 5:16 Titus 2:5,9-12 1 Timothy 6:1 1 Peter 2:12 6. 1 Peter 2:12,15 Titus 2:5 1 Timothy 6:1 7. Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 1:11 1 Timothy 6:1 1 Peter 2:12 Matthew 5:16 8. Romans 6:22 Matthew 7:13-14,21-23
16.3 Their ability to do these good works does not in any way come from themselves, but entirely from the Spirit of Christ. To enable them to do good works (besides the graces they have already received) they require the actual influence of the Holy Spirit to cause them to will and to do his good pleasure. [1] Yet are they not on this account to become negligent, nor to think that they are not required to perform a duty unless given a special impulse of the Spirit; rather, they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them. [2]
1. Ezekiel 36:26-27 John 15:4-6 2 Corinthians 3:5 Philippians 2:12-13 Ephesians 2:10 2. Romans 8:14 John 3:8 Philippians 2:12-13 2 Peter 1:10 Hebrews 6:12 2 Timothy 1:6 Jude 1:20-21
16.4 Those who in their obedience [to God] attain the greatest height possible in this life, are still far from being able to perform works of supererogation (that is, to do more than God requires) since they fall short of much which, as their duty, they are required to do. [1]
1. 1 Kings 8:46 2 Chronicles 6:36 Psalms 130:3 Psalms 143:2 Proverbs 20:9 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Romans 3:9,23 Romans 7:14-15 Galatians 5:17 1 John 1:6-10 Luke 17:10
16.5 We cannot, even by our best works, merit pardon of sin or eternal life from the hand of God, for those works are out of all proportion to the glory to come. [1] Moreover, because of the infinite distance that is between us and God, our works can neither benefit God nor satisfy the debt of our former sins. When we have done all we can, we have only done our duty, and are still unprofitable servants. [2] Besides, if our works are good they originate from the Spirit, [3] and whatever we do is defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection that it cannot endure the severity of God's judgment. [4]
1. Romans 8:18 2. Job 22:3 Job 35:7 Luke 17:10 Romans 4:3 Romans 11:3 3. Galatians 5:22-23 4. 1 Kings 8:46 2 Chronicles 6:36 Psalms 130:3 Psalms 143:2 Proverbs 20:9 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Romans 3:9,23 Romans 7:14-15 Galatians 5:17 1 John 1:6-10
16.6 Yet, although believers are accepted as individual people through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Christ. [1] It is not as though in this life they were entirely blameless and beyond censure in God's sight, [2] but that he looks upon them in his Son, and is pleased to accept and reward what is sincere, even though it is accompanied by many weaknesses and imperfections. [3]
1. Exodus 28:38 Ephesians 1:6-7 1 Peter 2:5 2. 1 Kings 8:46 2 Chronicles 6:36 Psalms 130:3 Psalms 143:2 Proverbs 20:9 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Romans 3:9,23 Romans 7:14-15 Galatians 5:17 1 John 1:6-10 3. Hebrews 6:10 Matthew 25:21,23
16.7 As for works done by the unregenerate, even though in essence they may be things which God commands, and may be beneficial both to themselves and others, [1] yet they remain sinful works because they do not proceed from a heart purified by faith, [2] nor are they done in a right manner according to the Word, [3] nor is their purpose the glory of God. [4] Therefore such works cannot please God nor make a person acceptable to receive grace from God. [5] Yet the neglect of such works is even more sinful and displeasing to God. [6]
1. 1 Kings 21:27-29 2 Kings 10:30-31 Romans 2:14 Philippians 1:15-18 2. Genesis 4:5 with Hebrews 11:4-6 1 Timothy 1:5 Romans 14:23 Galatians 5:6 3. 1 Corinthians 13:3 Isaiah 1:12 4. Matthew 6:2,5-6 1 Corinthians 10:31 5. Romans 9:16 Titus 1:15 Titus 3:5 6. 1 Kings 21:27-29 2 Kings 10:30-31 Psalms 14:4 Psalms 36:3
Ah, like the JWs with their New World translation. 2000 years of Christian scholarship and suddenly you think you have it right. That's precisely how cults get started. Ecclesiastical deconstruction.
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