Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Death certificate is imprinted on the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican scholar (more info)
The Times ^ | 11/20/2009 | Richard Owen

Posted on 11/20/2009 12:00:11 PM PST by markomalley

A Vatican scholar claims to have deciphered the "death certificate" imprinted on the Shroud of Turin, or Holy Shroud, a linen cloth revered by Christians and held by many to bear the image of the crucified Jesus.

Dr Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican secret archives, said "I think I have managed to read the burial certificate of Jesus the Nazarene, or Jesus of Nazareth." She said that she had reconstructed it from fragments of Greek, Hebrew and Latin writing imprinted on the cloth together with the image of the crucified man.

The shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral and is to be put in display next Spring, is regarded by many scholars as a medieval forgery. A 1988 carbon dating of a fragment of the cloth dated it to the Middle Ages.

However Dr Frale, who is to publish her findings in a new book, La Sindone di Gesu Nazareno (The Shroud of Jesus of Nazareth) said that the inscription provided "historical date consistent with the Gospels account". The letters, barely visible to the naked eye, were first spotted during an examination of the shroud in 1978, and others have since come to light.

Some scholars have suggested that the writing is from a reliquary attached to the cloth in medieval times. But Dr Frale said that the text could not have been written by a medieval Christian because it did not refer to Jesus as Christ but as "the Nazarene". This would have been "heretical" in the Middle Ages since it defined Jesus as "only a man" rather than the Son of God.

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History
KEYWORDS: clothofturin; crucifixion; godsgravesglyphs; history; jesus; medievalfake; shroud; shroudofturin; turin
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-109 next last
Her book can be ordered here. It is €28,00 plus shipping. (It might be able to be ordered from a US place, but I didn't get a hit anyplace)
1 posted on 11/20/2009 12:00:12 PM PST by markomalley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Or does it say “Made in China”?


2 posted on 11/20/2009 12:01:30 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DuncanWaring

Let me guess . . . was it Kenya?


3 posted on 11/20/2009 12:04:23 PM PST by ifear for the children (I just want to wake up and find its all been a terrible dream)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

I’ve read forensic accounts of the Shroud and was moved to tears by the suffering of the man enclosed within it.

I absolutely believe this is the burial shroud of Christ.


4 posted on 11/20/2009 12:06:45 PM PST by OpusatFR (Tagline not State Approved. Thoughts not State Approved. Actions not State Approved)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DuncanWaring

Is there a coffee ring at the bottom of the invoice?


5 posted on 11/20/2009 12:08:32 PM PST by IronKros (The pig put foot. Grunt. Foot in what? ketchup)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: DuncanWaring
"Or does it say “Made in China”?"

Nah... Burlington, NY
6 posted on 11/20/2009 12:12:06 PM PST by LIConFem
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: OpusatFR

Oh pleezzzzzzzzzz, There’s not one person living or dead who ever described what Jesus looked like.


7 posted on 11/20/2009 12:12:27 PM PST by Sacajaweau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Sacajaweau

You should read some verses in the NT that does describe what He looks like ....


8 posted on 11/20/2009 12:16:15 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

bookmark


9 posted on 11/20/2009 12:17:43 PM PST by GOP Poet (Obama is an OLYMPIC failure.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DuncanWaring
I smell a conflict of interest! Carbon dating is very good. There is virtually no way they could have made a 1,000 error.

This is a great Medieval fake!

10 posted on 11/20/2009 12:19:42 PM PST by WellyP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

This thread is a repeat of an another thread posted earlier today.


11 posted on 11/20/2009 12:20:45 PM PST by BertWheeler (Dance and the World Dances With You!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GOP Poet

Was Obama’s birth certificate there too ;-)


12 posted on 11/20/2009 12:20:49 PM PST by Claytonbridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

bump...


13 posted on 11/20/2009 12:22:04 PM PST by pgkdan ( I miss Ronald Reagan!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley


14 posted on 11/20/2009 12:22:10 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OpusatFR
A physician explains the medical aspects of crucifixion.
15 posted on 11/20/2009 12:22:23 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: DuncanWaring

That’s no more funny now than it was this morning on the other two threads I saw it on.


16 posted on 11/20/2009 12:22:42 PM PST by pgkdan ( I miss Ronald Reagan!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: OpusatFR
A physician explains the medical aspects of crucifixion.
17 posted on 11/20/2009 12:23:00 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: BertWheeler
The only other thread on this was an AP piece that did not have nearly the level of detail that is in this Times article.
18 posted on 11/20/2009 12:23:43 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: WellyP
There is virtually no way they could have made a 1,000 error.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are numerous ways such an error could have been made and most have been discussed here on FR many, many times.

19 posted on 11/20/2009 12:25:06 PM PST by pgkdan ( I miss Ronald Reagan!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: OpusatFR

I’m with you. I read the book by the forensic expert...the title slips my mind...and was heart broken over what He suffered. I think Mel Gibson took a lot of inspiration from that book for ‘The Passion of the Christ’.


20 posted on 11/20/2009 12:27:22 PM PST by pgkdan ( I miss Ronald Reagan!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Sacajaweau

Have you bothered to read the data or the forensics?

If don’t believe, that’s your choice. I care not one way or another.

The blood typing, pollen typing, and forensics of the wounds and blood patterns on the shroud from the body are there, nothing fake and can’t be replicated.

As I said. Believe or not, but mocking those who do is simply poor.


21 posted on 11/20/2009 12:27:40 PM PST by OpusatFR (Tagline not State Approved. Thoughts not State Approved. Actions not State Approved)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

You should read some verses in the NT that does describe what He looks like ....


Like which ones?

Descriptions of Jesus’ appearance are conspicuous by their absense. I’ve always taken it to mean God wanted us to judge Jesus on his heart, not his appearance.


22 posted on 11/20/2009 12:36:11 PM PST by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: pgkdan

Some people just got no sense of humor.


23 posted on 11/20/2009 12:39:25 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: WellyP

I’ve read a claim, which I’ll neither advocate nor deprecate, that the carbon-dating test was inadvertently run on a patch made during the era it sustained the burns.


24 posted on 11/20/2009 12:41:49 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: WellyP

I’m not taking sides here, but the Carbon-14 dating used in 1988 is the “fake” in this issue. The carbon dating also didn’t take into effect the fact that only outlying material was tested nor was the material intrusion taken into effect.

However, like I said before, I’m not taking side - just pointing out inconsistencies.


25 posted on 11/20/2009 12:53:29 PM PST by BertWheeler (Dance and the World Dances With You!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

bookmark


26 posted on 11/20/2009 12:53:33 PM PST by ExGeeEye (P.U.M.A.--BC/BG!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Brookhaven
There were descriptions by his disciples on how he looked - fair, nondescript ... the Rose of Sharon ... things like that ... see:http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-look-like.html

plus this image is what some scientists who inspected the Shroud of Turin think the image may look like in the positive (the image itself being a negative) ....

Photobucket

27 posted on 11/20/2009 12:58:40 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: All

bump


28 posted on 11/20/2009 1:14:01 PM PST by Maverick68 (w)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

From the site you linked: “The Bible never gives any physical description of Christ.” “One thing is clear: if it were important for us to know what He really did look like, Matthew, Peter and John, who spent three years with Him, would certainly be able to give us an accurate description, as would His own brothers, James and Jude. Yet, these New Testament writers offer no details about His physical attributes.”

I would agree with their conclusion (and I assume you do also, since you linked to it), it’s not important that we know what Jesus looked like.

As far as the shroud image, I’ll have to admit I fall on the skeptic side. Not because of the carbon dating stuff (which I agree might be inaccurace due to the shroud having been in a fire), but because of what the Bible says about Jesus’ burial cloth.

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke the word translated to English as “wrapped” (And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth-NASB) literally means to roll or wind something around something else. In John, the word used is the same one used to describe someone being bound by chains (So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings-NASB), again wrapping something around something else. In John, when the apostles run to the tomb and look inside they describe the shourd also (and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings-NASB). The word translated as “linen wrappings” literally means “strips of linens.”

I don’t see how the Shroud of Turin matches what the Bible says. The Bible talks about linen strips being wound or rolled around the body (which was a common burial practice of the Jews at the time.) Not about a large piece of cloth.


29 posted on 11/20/2009 1:38:33 PM PST by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: WellyP
I'm going to add to what some others have said here about the 1988 carbon dating. It was done on a segment of the cloth that was rewoven with cotton dyed to match the color of the linen. The researchers who did the carbon dating confirmed that when they looked more closely at the samples after a textile expert called their attention to some inconsistencies. As a result, the carbon dating has been discarded as any sort of evidence by the very people who ran the tests.
30 posted on 11/20/2009 1:50:39 PM PST by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Brookhaven

I suggest you check Customs and Courtesies of the Bible ... i.e. Jewish traditions ..... you might find it a bit different....


31 posted on 11/20/2009 2:06:51 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Dr. Barbara Frale (not guilty!)
32 posted on 11/20/2009 2:16:15 PM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

I suggest you check Customs and Courtesies of the Bible ... i.e. Jewish traditions ..... you might find it a bit different....


Different than what? The Bible?

I used the Bible as my primary reference. Are you saying there is something that is a better reference or supersedes the Bible?


33 posted on 11/20/2009 2:19:15 PM PST by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Brookhaven

The NT is about Jesus - he did not give up his Jewish traditions ... even today Jews are buried in shrouds within 24 hours of death ...


34 posted on 11/20/2009 2:44:14 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

The NT is about Jesus - he did not give up his Jewish traditions ... even today Jews are buried in shrouds within 24 hours of death ...


And the Bible indicates he was buried in a shroud of linen strips.

I also found this as far as Jewish customs of the day:

“Merrill Tenney (professor of theological studies and dean of the Graduate school of Theology at Wheaton College and author of several books including “The Zondervan Bible Dictionary”) describes the Jewish custom as follows: In preparing a body for burial according to Jewish custom, it was usually washed and straightened, and then bandaged tightly from the armpits to the ankles in strips of linen about a foot wide. Aromatic spices, often of a gummy consistency, were placed between the wrappings or folds. They served partially as a preservative and partially as a cement to glue the cloth wrappings into a solid covering. (from: The Reality of the Resurrection).”

What am I missing? The Bible indicates Jesus was wrapped with linen strips and the Jewish custom of the day was to wrap the body with linen strips.


35 posted on 11/20/2009 3:23:35 PM PST by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

Revelation gives some details on what Our Lord looked like.


36 posted on 11/20/2009 3:49:26 PM PST by Biggirl (Throw The Turkeys Out In 2010!=^..^==^..^==^..^==^..^==^..^=)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Brookhaven
Notice where it says: "Unique linen clothing" ... no wrapping ...

According to Jewish law, burial of the deceased had to occur within 24 hours of the individual’s death (Deuteronomy 21:23), because of climate factors, in order to maintain ritual purity. Soon after death, family members of the deceased would mourn and prepare the body for burial. The deceased’s body was washed and anointed with various oils and spices. The body was then wrapped in unique linen clothing that contained spices and placed on a stone shelf that was carved into the bedrock wall of a the tomb.

It does not say strips of linen ... even today we Jews use a shroud as large as a sheet ....

37 posted on 11/20/2009 4:11:55 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Biggirl
Thanks for your reply - I feel it's not important how He looked but what He means for our salvation. Also to me it's not when He comes but >that< He comes .... Maranatha ....

Photobucket

38 posted on 11/20/2009 4:19:36 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

Umm, I really doubt that Jesus looked like one of the Bee Gees.


39 posted on 11/20/2009 5:12:10 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

Saw the Bee Gee’s on Dancing with the stars Tuesday ... one looked like Spock and the other ....??? All we have are fictionalized pictures from different artists ... all look European ... all we can do is surmise what He may have looked like ... which is not all that important, is it?


40 posted on 11/20/2009 5:31:59 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

Maranatha.......Come Lord Jesus!


41 posted on 11/20/2009 5:52:11 PM PST by Biggirl (Throw The Turkeys Out In 2010!=^..^==^..^==^..^==^..^==^..^=)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer
all we can do is surmise what He may have looked like ... which is not all that important, is it?

I took the picture that you posted as an effeminate mockery of Jesus, whether you intended it or not. Jesus was a hale and hearty carpenter, not a drugged out 60s freak. That picture is NOT of a strong and work hardened carpenter.

42 posted on 11/20/2009 6:13:49 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr
Just a romanticized portrait. The best picture of Jesus I saw and liked and wish I could find again looked something like the cross between Broadway Joe and Stephen Sigall. He was dressed in a football jersey and looked like he just finished a game with friends. Or there's this one.

Photobucket

But in the scheme of things it just doesn't matter, does it?

43 posted on 11/20/2009 6:27:10 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: WellyP; markomalley

If I recall correctly, I think I read that the error wasn’t in the carbon dating but in the sample of cloth which was used for the carbon dating - it was of a repaired area and I think there were indications of woven repairs made over the centuries and the sample was not from the main original cloth where the corporal stains were located. Of course that raises more questions such as in whose interest is it to sample such a repaired area of the cloth?

Wasn’t there a later carbon dating that went back to the 1st century?


44 posted on 11/20/2009 6:31:46 PM PST by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer
Or there's this one.

I'll allow it. :)

45 posted on 11/20/2009 6:33:35 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

LOL - one of my fav. movies too .... Dogma ....


46 posted on 11/20/2009 6:37:07 PM PST by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer
Dogma ....

Not going there, not even to take the dogma for a walk...

47 posted on 11/20/2009 6:40:21 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: DuncanWaring

It says “Burn after reading”.


48 posted on 11/20/2009 6:41:49 PM PST by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SkyDancer

Notice where it says: “Unique linen clothing” ... no wrapping ...

According to Jewish law, burial of the deceased had to occur within 24 hours of the individual’s death (Deuteronomy 21:23), because of climate factors, in order to maintain ritual purity. Soon after death, family members of the deceased would mourn and prepare the body for burial. The deceased’s body was washed and anointed with various oils and spices. The body was then wrapped in unique linen clothing that contained spices and placed on a stone shelf that was carved into the bedrock wall of a the tomb.

It does not say strips of linen ... even today we Jews use a shroud as large as a sheet ....


And where did you pull this reference from? Not Deut. 21:23.

“his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.”

All that indicates is that the body should be buried on the same day. It doesn’t indicate anything about how the body is to be prepared. You surely can’t be saying a body can’t be wrapped in linen strips in less than 24 hours, can you?

I found where you pulled your quote here (if I’m wrong, please provide another link): http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/back_to_basics/burial_practices/jewish_law.html .

It doesn’t mention a sheet or strips of linen, just uses the term “unique linen clothing”. Neither a sheet or strips of cloth would qualify as clothing in the conventional sense, so it’s a stretch to say clothing = sheet.

Unique? One of a kind. Unusual. Strange.

I’m sorry, I don’t see how the phrase “unique linen clothing” equates to “big linen sheet”.

I’ll refer you to the story of Lazarus:

The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go. (John 11:44)

The word translated as bound is the same one later to used to describe Jesus’ wrappings and means as though to have chains wrapped around you.

The word translated as wrappings here is “keiria” which means: 1) a band, either for bed-girth, or for tying up a corpse after it has been swathed in linen (swathed, btw, means “To wrap or bind with or as if with bandages.”)

The word translated as cloth here is soudarion which means: 1) a handkerchief 2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose and also used in swathing the head of a corpse.

Note the parallel to John 20:6-7

And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying {there,} and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. (John 20:6-7)

The word translated as wrappings (twice) is othonion which means: 1) a piece of linen, small linen cloth 2) strips of linen cloth for swathing the dead.

The word translated as face-cloth here is again soudarion meaning: 1) a handkerchief 2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose and also used in swathing the head of a corpse.

Neither of these descriptions from the Bible are consistent with using a large sheet. They ARE consistent with the body being wrapped with linen strips and a smaller cloth used to cover the face.

I understand all about tradition, and how things are done “even today”, but that doesn’t override what the Bible actually says. You’ve yet to address the main point: why the Bible indicates linen strips and a face cloth, NOT a large linen sheet.


49 posted on 11/20/2009 6:42:20 PM PST by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Domestic Church
If I recall correctly, I think I read that the error wasn’t in the carbon dating but in the sample of cloth which was used for the carbon dating - it was of a repaired area and I think there were indications of woven repairs made over the centuries and the sample was not from the main original cloth where the corporal stains were located. Of course that raises more questions such as in whose interest is it to sample such a repaired area of the cloth?

I understand that the spot sampled was repaired after a fire sometime in the 15th-16th Century (may be wrong on the date). So if the material used was contemporary to that time, the carbon dating would be from that time.

From what I gather, some of the more compelling evidence consists of pollen particles vacuumed from there. I understand that some of them come from plants that are native only to that area (Jerusalem and environs)

As to why somebody would do this, I can't speak to somebody's motives with any kind of authority. So I won't.

50 posted on 11/20/2009 7:22:49 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-109 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson