Posted on 11/20/2009 12:00:11 PM PST by markomalley
A Vatican scholar claims to have deciphered the "death certificate" imprinted on the Shroud of Turin, or Holy Shroud, a linen cloth revered by Christians and held by many to bear the image of the crucified Jesus.
Dr Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican secret archives, said "I think I have managed to read the burial certificate of Jesus the Nazarene, or Jesus of Nazareth." She said that she had reconstructed it from fragments of Greek, Hebrew and Latin writing imprinted on the cloth together with the image of the crucified man.
The shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral and is to be put in display next Spring, is regarded by many scholars as a medieval forgery. A 1988 carbon dating of a fragment of the cloth dated it to the Middle Ages.
However Dr Frale, who is to publish her findings in a new book, La Sindone di Gesu Nazareno (The Shroud of Jesus of Nazareth) said that the inscription provided "historical date consistent with the Gospels account". The letters, barely visible to the naked eye, were first spotted during an examination of the shroud in 1978, and others have since come to light.
Some scholars have suggested that the writing is from a reliquary attached to the cloth in medieval times. But Dr Frale said that the text could not have been written by a medieval Christian because it did not refer to Jesus as Christ but as "the Nazarene". This would have been "heretical" in the Middle Ages since it defined Jesus as "only a man" rather than the Son of God.
(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...
Or does it say “Made in China”?
Let me guess . . . was it Kenya?
I’ve read forensic accounts of the Shroud and was moved to tears by the suffering of the man enclosed within it.
I absolutely believe this is the burial shroud of Christ.
Is there a coffee ring at the bottom of the invoice?
Oh pleezzzzzzzzzz, There’s not one person living or dead who ever described what Jesus looked like.
You should read some verses in the NT that does describe what He looks like ....
bookmark
This is a great Medieval fake!
This thread is a repeat of an another thread posted earlier today.
Was Obama’s birth certificate there too ;-)
bump...
That’s no more funny now than it was this morning on the other two threads I saw it on.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There are numerous ways such an error could have been made and most have been discussed here on FR many, many times.
I’m with you. I read the book by the forensic expert...the title slips my mind...and was heart broken over what He suffered. I think Mel Gibson took a lot of inspiration from that book for ‘The Passion of the Christ’.
Have you bothered to read the data or the forensics?
If don’t believe, that’s your choice. I care not one way or another.
The blood typing, pollen typing, and forensics of the wounds and blood patterns on the shroud from the body are there, nothing fake and can’t be replicated.
As I said. Believe or not, but mocking those who do is simply poor.
You should read some verses in the NT that does describe what He looks like ....
Like which ones?
Descriptions of Jesus’ appearance are conspicuous by their absense. I’ve always taken it to mean God wanted us to judge Jesus on his heart, not his appearance.
Some people just got no sense of humor.
I’ve read a claim, which I’ll neither advocate nor deprecate, that the carbon-dating test was inadvertently run on a patch made during the era it sustained the burns.
I’m not taking sides here, but the Carbon-14 dating used in 1988 is the “fake” in this issue. The carbon dating also didn’t take into effect the fact that only outlying material was tested nor was the material intrusion taken into effect.
However, like I said before, I’m not taking side - just pointing out inconsistencies.
bookmark
plus this image is what some scientists who inspected the Shroud of Turin think the image may look like in the positive (the image itself being a negative) ....
bump
From the site you linked: “The Bible never gives any physical description of Christ.” “One thing is clear: if it were important for us to know what He really did look like, Matthew, Peter and John, who spent three years with Him, would certainly be able to give us an accurate description, as would His own brothers, James and Jude. Yet, these New Testament writers offer no details about His physical attributes.”
I would agree with their conclusion (and I assume you do also, since you linked to it), it’s not important that we know what Jesus looked like.
As far as the shroud image, I’ll have to admit I fall on the skeptic side. Not because of the carbon dating stuff (which I agree might be inaccurace due to the shroud having been in a fire), but because of what the Bible says about Jesus’ burial cloth.
In Matthew, Mark, and Luke the word translated to English as “wrapped” (And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth-NASB) literally means to roll or wind something around something else. In John, the word used is the same one used to describe someone being bound by chains (So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings-NASB), again wrapping something around something else. In John, when the apostles run to the tomb and look inside they describe the shourd also (and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings-NASB). The word translated as “linen wrappings” literally means “strips of linens.”
I don’t see how the Shroud of Turin matches what the Bible says. The Bible talks about linen strips being wound or rolled around the body (which was a common burial practice of the Jews at the time.) Not about a large piece of cloth.
I suggest you check Customs and Courtesies of the Bible ... i.e. Jewish traditions ..... you might find it a bit different....
I suggest you check Customs and Courtesies of the Bible ... i.e. Jewish traditions ..... you might find it a bit different....
Different than what? The Bible?
I used the Bible as my primary reference. Are you saying there is something that is a better reference or supersedes the Bible?
The NT is about Jesus - he did not give up his Jewish traditions ... even today Jews are buried in shrouds within 24 hours of death ...
The NT is about Jesus - he did not give up his Jewish traditions ... even today Jews are buried in shrouds within 24 hours of death ...
And the Bible indicates he was buried in a shroud of linen strips.
I also found this as far as Jewish customs of the day:
“Merrill Tenney (professor of theological studies and dean of the Graduate school of Theology at Wheaton College and author of several books including “The Zondervan Bible Dictionary”) describes the Jewish custom as follows: In preparing a body for burial according to Jewish custom, it was usually washed and straightened, and then bandaged tightly from the armpits to the ankles in strips of linen about a foot wide. Aromatic spices, often of a gummy consistency, were placed between the wrappings or folds. They served partially as a preservative and partially as a cement to glue the cloth wrappings into a solid covering. (from: The Reality of the Resurrection).”
What am I missing? The Bible indicates Jesus was wrapped with linen strips and the Jewish custom of the day was to wrap the body with linen strips.
Revelation gives some details on what Our Lord looked like.
According to Jewish law, burial of the deceased had to occur within 24 hours of the individual’s death (Deuteronomy 21:23), because of climate factors, in order to maintain ritual purity. Soon after death, family members of the deceased would mourn and prepare the body for burial. The deceased’s body was washed and anointed with various oils and spices. The body was then wrapped in unique linen clothing that contained spices and placed on a stone shelf that was carved into the bedrock wall of a the tomb.
It does not say strips of linen ... even today we Jews use a shroud as large as a sheet ....
Umm, I really doubt that Jesus looked like one of the Bee Gees.
Saw the Bee Gee’s on Dancing with the stars Tuesday ... one looked like Spock and the other ....??? All we have are fictionalized pictures from different artists ... all look European ... all we can do is surmise what He may have looked like ... which is not all that important, is it?
Maranatha.......Come Lord Jesus!
I took the picture that you posted as an effeminate mockery of Jesus, whether you intended it or not. Jesus was a hale and hearty carpenter, not a drugged out 60s freak. That picture is NOT of a strong and work hardened carpenter.
But in the scheme of things it just doesn't matter, does it?
If I recall correctly, I think I read that the error wasn’t in the carbon dating but in the sample of cloth which was used for the carbon dating - it was of a repaired area and I think there were indications of woven repairs made over the centuries and the sample was not from the main original cloth where the corporal stains were located. Of course that raises more questions such as in whose interest is it to sample such a repaired area of the cloth?
Wasn’t there a later carbon dating that went back to the 1st century?
I'll allow it. :)
LOL - one of my fav. movies too .... Dogma ....
Not going there, not even to take the dogma for a walk...
It says “Burn after reading”.
Notice where it says: “Unique linen clothing” ... no wrapping ...
According to Jewish law, burial of the deceased had to occur within 24 hours of the individual’s death (Deuteronomy 21:23), because of climate factors, in order to maintain ritual purity. Soon after death, family members of the deceased would mourn and prepare the body for burial. The deceased’s body was washed and anointed with various oils and spices. The body was then wrapped in unique linen clothing that contained spices and placed on a stone shelf that was carved into the bedrock wall of a the tomb.
It does not say strips of linen ... even today we Jews use a shroud as large as a sheet ....
And where did you pull this reference from? Not Deut. 21:23.
“his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.”
All that indicates is that the body should be buried on the same day. It doesn’t indicate anything about how the body is to be prepared. You surely can’t be saying a body can’t be wrapped in linen strips in less than 24 hours, can you?
I found where you pulled your quote here (if I’m wrong, please provide another link): http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/back_to_basics/burial_practices/jewish_law.html .
It doesn’t mention a sheet or strips of linen, just uses the term “unique linen clothing”. Neither a sheet or strips of cloth would qualify as clothing in the conventional sense, so it’s a stretch to say clothing = sheet.
Unique? One of a kind. Unusual. Strange.
I’m sorry, I don’t see how the phrase “unique linen clothing” equates to “big linen sheet”.
I’ll refer you to the story of Lazarus:
The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go. (John 11:44)
The word translated as bound is the same one later to used to describe Jesus’ wrappings and means as though to have chains wrapped around you.
The word translated as wrappings here is “keiria” which means: 1) a band, either for bed-girth, or for tying up a corpse after it has been swathed in linen (swathed, btw, means “To wrap or bind with or as if with bandages.”)
The word translated as cloth here is soudarion which means: 1) a handkerchief 2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose and also used in swathing the head of a corpse.
Note the parallel to John 20:6-7
And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying {there,} and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. (John 20:6-7)
The word translated as wrappings (twice) is othonion which means: 1) a piece of linen, small linen cloth 2) strips of linen cloth for swathing the dead.
The word translated as face-cloth here is again soudarion meaning: 1) a handkerchief 2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose and also used in swathing the head of a corpse.
Neither of these descriptions from the Bible are consistent with using a large sheet. They ARE consistent with the body being wrapped with linen strips and a smaller cloth used to cover the face.
I understand all about tradition, and how things are done “even today”, but that doesn’t override what the Bible actually says. You’ve yet to address the main point: why the Bible indicates linen strips and a face cloth, NOT a large linen sheet.
I understand that the spot sampled was repaired after a fire sometime in the 15th-16th Century (may be wrong on the date). So if the material used was contemporary to that time, the carbon dating would be from that time.
From what I gather, some of the more compelling evidence consists of pollen particles vacuumed from there. I understand that some of them come from plants that are native only to that area (Jerusalem and environs)
As to why somebody would do this, I can't speak to somebody's motives with any kind of authority. So I won't.
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