Posted on 12/04/2009 4:17:34 PM PST by Colofornian
As we continue our discussion about the Book of Mormon translation, some members may be troubled that the process doesn't match their conceptions of how they thought the process worked. For members who were unaware of the seer stone in the hat, at least two questions or concerns may arise: 1) Is it strange that Joseph used a stone in a hat? 2) Why have we have always been told that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim?
To answer the first question we might also ask: Is it strange that a man could rise from the dead, walk on water, heal the lame, create the heavens, and answer the prayers of billions of people? There are basically two kinds of non-Mormons who reject LDS beliefs: A) those who believe that there is no God (or that if such a being exists he doesn't interact with humans), and B) those who believe that a supreme being exists and has communicated with mankind.
For those who don't believe in a God, all supernatural and miraculous events are automatically brushed aside as imaginary, impossible, etc. All spiritual experiences are seen as "strange," superstitious, and possibly the result of the evolutionary process of the mind. Joseph's translation process is just as strange as any other supernatural claim.
For those who believe that God can and has communicated with mankind, it seems hypocritical to summarily dismiss Joseph's method of translation because it doesn't fit with pre-conceived views of how God communicates. As with all spiritual claims, the only way to know if they come from God is to ask God for a witness.
For Mormons who think the seer stone in the hat is strange compared to a translation through the Nephite Interpreters, one might ask: Why is a translation through a stone outside of a hat (the Nephite Interpreters) acceptable, while a translation through a stone inside of a hat (the seer stone) is unusual? It should be obvious that if someone finds the one normal and the other odd, that such a perspective is based on nothing more than pre-conceived assumptions.
Number 2: Why have we have always been told that Joseph translated the book with the Urim and Thummim? The answer is simple: The early Saints referred to both the Interpreters and the seer stone as the "Urim and Thummim." The real problem is not that the seer stone is called the Urim and Thummim, but rather that when most modern members hear the phrase they typically envision the Interpreters. Why is this? The critics claim that most members don't know about the stone and the hat because the church hides the information. This claim, however, is false.
That Joseph used a seer stone in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon has been mentioned in several official church publications such as the Improvement Era, the Ensign, and even the Friend by such people as B.H. Roberts, Richard Lloyd Anderson, Neal A. Maxwell and Russell M. Nelson. It stretches the imagination to believe that the church would hide this information if it has been included in official church magazines.
So why are some members unfamiliar with the translation process? The answer is a bit more complex. This topic and the frequent but false claim that the church "hides its history from members" will be discussed in greater depth in a future issue.
Number 3: Why isn't the seer stone used today? In Joseph's world, he and many of his contemporaries believed that God could reveal things through a seer stone. Joseph's mind was already open and prepared for revelation and a translation process through the Urim and Thummin. The Lord utilized Joseph's worldview to help restore the gospel. If Joseph had been skeptical of seer stones, he may not have been receptive to translating the Book of Mormon.
As Joseph continued to receive more revelations, he discovered that the seer stone was merely an elementary tool for teaching him how to focus his thoughts on the things of God. By the time he was working on the Inspired Version of the New Testament, he no longer needed the seer stone. Joseph apparently told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim "when he was inexperienced in the Spirit of inspiration. But now he had advanced so far that he understood the operations of that Spirit and did not need the assistance of that instrument," (Richard L. Anderson, BYU Studies 24:4, 489-560).
you should read up on nauvoo, it was a pretty amazing place for the time. and they built it out of swamp.
i know you dont like the guy, for some reason, but you cant deny what he built. take a look at his legacy in Utah. thats not out of a hat, it is real.
anyway, signing off on this thread. been fun.
>>> The Lord utilized Joseph’s worldview to help restore the gospel.
I found this particularly interesting....
that God would use a “worldview” to do His divine will.
Anyone who has read the bible enough, understands that “worldview” is down right EVIL.... it is Anti-God... because the “worldview” is Satan’s view... which he spreads by any and every means possible.
This is very much like saying that God asked Satan to give Him a hand in helping Joseph Smith restore something that supposedly Satan himself had a direct hand in defeating in the first place. How much sense does that make???
What is a “Seer” stone anyway???
Well, it is an instrument of witchcraft....
Since when did God EVER “use” or empower an inanimate object to reveal anything to mankind??? HE NEVER DID!
Fact of the matter is that Joseph Smith is THE ONLY ONE who claimed that he was receiving revelation from God by way of an object normally used for unholy divination...
Not to mention the fact that Joseph Smith used the same process to find buried treasure... for which he was conveniently paid for by his farmer clients up-front.
This so-called process was a fraudulent means by which he tricked gullible farmers out of money... And to think that God would use that “world view” for something Holy and inspired???? Come on!... this would be like me trying to sell a cure for cancer made from tobacco products!
It is astounding to me that such an obvious ploy can successfully be passed off as an act of God.
Sometimes I think cult leaders like JS come up with ridiculous stuff like that just for the fun of it to see how duped their followers really are.
Oh... and to compare Smith’s translation process to the miracles of Jesus just takes the cake...
That’s really good... If they think it’s strange, just blame Jesus... as if nothing is strange or suspicious compared to the miracles of Jesus.
A bright ray of clarity in a muddled mormon world.
What other major world religion claimed to have been a hitherto-lost/neglected descendent of Abraham chosen by God to return people to the true way that had been covered up by crooked religious leaders, even to the point of altering scripture?
I work with a lot of rocks, and they are insulted being implicated by smith as part of this endeavor.
(Sorry, but Smith didn't make it to Utah...that was Brigham Young's leading)
...and they built it out of swamp.
Well, that's been South Louisiana all over in the same time range, and some before...nothing peculiar
For those who believe that God can and has communicated with mankind, it seems hypocritical to summarily dismiss Joseph’s method of translation because it doesn’t fit with pre-conceived views of how God communicates. As with all spiritual claims, the only way to know if they come from God is to ask God for a witness.
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They are forgetting the other option. Using our brains to see the inconsistencies between the Bible and BoM.
The “method” of JS’s “translation” of the BoM changed over time. First it was the hat, then it was the spectacles, then it was with the plates, then without anything.
*Sigh*
>>Some Mormons may not understand Joseph’s translation process<<
I’ll say they don’t. And when they finally do, they join ex-mormons for Jesus.
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Pretty much. When I was LDS and I found out JS DIDN’T use the “gold plates” it made me question the whole point of the focus on them. If they weren’t used, why all the focus on them.
>>> What other major world religion claimed to have been a hitherto-lost/neglected descendent of Abraham chosen by God to return people to the true way that had been covered up by crooked religious leaders, even to the point of altering scripture?
VERY interesting point!... can’t say that I ever contemplated that one.
Are there cults of Islam? Where the leader of the cult said “hey wait a minute... it’s all wrong... here’s the update!”
Yeah... If I hear you correctly, Christianity is unique in it’s having to deal with so many attempts to change it at it’s core.
Yes I can sypathise ...
Joey Smith gave rocks a bad name...
Rodney Dangerfield and rocks get no respect...
***Is it strange that a man could rise from the dead, walk on water, heal the lame, create the heavens, and answer the prayers of billions of people?***
For a man to do this? Yes, extremely strange, in fact impossible. For God to do it? Not strange, or impossible.
However, does that mean you are equating Joseph Smith with Jesus?
Anyone who has read the bible enough, understands that “worldview” is down right EVIL.... it is Anti-God... because the “worldview” is Satan’s view... which he spreads by any and every means possible. [Safrguns]
Well, I, too was interested in what you said right before this, and I comment on that below, but to be fair to Ash, the author, he's not necessarily talking about the "world's view" but the querky "worldview" -- as in "view of the world" or lens Smith saw through.
I found this particularly interesting.... that God would use a “worldview” to do His divine will.
Yes, I noted that apologetic try Ash was shooting for, too.
My recommendation is that people get ahold of material that shows more comprehensively exactly what Smith's "worldviews" of the time. The book to start? D. Michael Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View."
Quinn was a prof of history @ BYU. He was ushered out of the church for some of his rather forthright expositions of the church; but still, BYU has other reasons now to oppose him: "D. Michael Quinn is a former Mormon historian now turned homosexual apologist." http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=10&num=1&id=280
Still, try to find a used book or borrow it. Here's a description of the book from Signature Books (http://www.signaturebooks.com/magic.htm):
In this ground-breaking book, D. Michael Quinn masterfully reconstructs an earlier age, finding ample evidence for folk magic in nineteenth-century New England, as he does in Mormon founder Joseph Smith's upbringing. Quinn discovers that Smith's world was inhabited by supernatural creatures whose existence could be both symbolic and real. He explains that the Smith family's treasure digging was not unusual for the times and is vital to understanding how early Mormons interpreted developments in their history in ways that differ from modern perceptions. Quinn's impressive research provides a much-needed background for the environment that produced Mormonism. This thoroughly researched examination into occult traditions surrounding Smith, his family, and other founding Mormons cannot be understated. Among the practices no longer a part of Mormonism are the use of divining rods for revelation, astrology to determine the best times to conceive children and plant crops, the study of skull contours to understand personality traits, magic formulae utilized to discover lost property, and the wearing of protective talismans. Ninety-four photographs and illustrations accompany the text.
lol next you guys will be jumping on Jehova witnesses
Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity’s view of an accused - in other words Urim and Thummim were used to answer the question innocent or guilty.
Additionally, they were NOT spectacles (as JS says), but rather items placed in a breastplate.
Nevertheless, the passage does describe them as being put into the breastplate, which scholars think implies they were objects put into some sort of pouch within it, and then, while out of view, one (or one side, if the Urim and Thummim was a single object) was chosen by touch and withdrawn or thrown out; since the Urim and Thummim were put inside this pouch, they were presumably small and fairly flat, and were possibly tablets of wood or of bone. With the view of scholars that Urim essentially means guilty and Thummim essentially means innocent, this would imply that the purpose of the Urim and Thummim was an ordeal to confirm or deny suspected guilt; if the Urim was selected it meant guilt, while selection of the Thummim would mean innocence.
The BIBLICAL Urim and Thummim is a far cry from the “seer stone” placed in a hat.
Smith’s invention was using biblical terms for the same “seer stone” that he used in treasure hunting.
>>> he’s not necessarily talking about the “world’s view” but the querky “worldview” — as in “view of the world” or lens Smith saw through.
I agree that “world view” is a vague term which can mean different things... but God doesn’t speak to us from our own point of view, because that view (regardless of what it is) is faulty. God speaks to us from His point of view. That is one of the reasons it is so foreign to the world.
But... it is easy enough to set an individual’s viewpoint aside, and address the concept of whether or not God would choose an instrument of Satan (seer stone) as His own means of empowering an individual. First of all, it is not needed. Second, it promotes idolatry. And third, it equates Satanic practices with God’s ways.
The burning bush by the way, was a manifestation of God’s presence. Not an object that Moses used to hear God.
So was the large hand which wrote on the wall... but in that case it was a divine manifestation of God’s judgment.
Joseph Smith himself was a known con artist, and was arrested for defrauding people with a seer stone...
So why would God choose to speak through the same type of instrument or process that was used to deceive?
If Pelosi said tomorrow that she wants to reduce taxes, would you believe her?
Would you believe her if she claimed that she was inspired to reduce taxes after reading Al-Gore’s book on Global warming?
Of course you wouldn’t... and the book claim wouldn’t help things either... because the messenger is corrupted and unbelievable, as is the object which she claimed as a reference.
God’s ways are NOT our ways.
He does not adapt his will to fit our understanding.
Agreed. (As the prophet Isaiah proclaimed)
I'd also recommend to threadsters: TranslationOrDivination?
Here's the first three graphs: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has published many pictures of Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon. These depictions invariably show Joseph seated at a table, carefully examining the gold plates which are in front of him on the table. The impression given is that the dictation process involved Joseph’s direct visual contact with the plates.
However, this scenario does not square with the testimony of those who were eyewitnesses to Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon. These witnesses include all three of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon (the same individuals whose testimony appears in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon), as well as Joseph Smith’s wife, Emma Hale Smith. They tell a similar story of Joseph dropping a magical seer stone into his hat, then burying his face in the hat and proceeding to dictate the Book of Mormon. Joseph claimed to see in the darkened hat the words he dictated. Several of the witnesses comment that the gold plates were sometimes not even in sight as Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon. This evidence of the actual Book of Mormon translation method has been discussed in at least six different scholarly articles and several books by Mormon historians over the past 30 years.
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the LDS Church wishes to distance itself from the compelling evidence that Joseph Smith both discovered and produced the Book of Mormon in a context of magic/ divination/ clairvoyance. We encourage all members of the LDS Church and others who are interested in the LDS Church’s claims, to carefully review this important evidence. Here is the eyewitness testimony to Joseph Smith's dictation procedure, followed by some brief observations and conclusions.
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