Who, then, should be classed as dispensationalists?

(C) Copyright, 1951, by LEWIS SPERRY CHAFER: In the Public Domain ^ | Lewis Sperry Chafer

[Tzfat]

(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day... (22) Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Can you explain how verse 16 and verse 22 are related in this pericope? Specifically, what part of "holy day, new moon, Sabbath day" is a part of "commandments and doctrines of men."

Also, can you tell me what the tense the Greek verb "to come" is in verse 17?

I am curious how many people actually bother to read this passage in the original Greek before they make assumptions that they think it places "holy days, new moon, Sabbaths" in a negative light - and if they had considered that if Paul were actually saying what they claim he is saying, that according to Deut 12:32-13:10 that he was to be regarded as a false prophet and stoned...

Check your premises.

[Lee N. Field]

christianbook.com has Chafer’s Systematic Theology unabridged for 49.99 .... not an ad here, just an FYI

As an aside, totally separate from the topic of this thread, am I the only one who gets monumentally depressed looking over the CBD fliers? Some good stuff, yes (they have Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology for $12.). Much drek, much that's a positive spiritual danger, better off pulped.

[grumpa]

Just yesterday I had the opportunity to chat with a recent grad of Dallas Theological Seminary. He reports that Dispensationalism, while still alive at DTS is waning. There is a new group of “progressives” that admit that much of the detail of Dispensationalism has been “proven wrong” (his words). About all that is left is a belief that Israel will somehow play a role in the Second Coming. When I asked him what is being said about 1948 (establishment of the modern state of Israel), he said that even that is no longer sacrosanct. The young man does not know what to think about eschatology and is even giving some aspects or Preterism a look.

[Cvengr]

I haven’t had time to perform that study. Feel free to help in conjugating the verb and sharing your study, if you like.

It reads as though it would be an interesting study, if those questions are indeed the right questions.

I recalled the verse from recent readings upon reading the third point, which I hadn’t seen as a qualifier form any dispensational studies I’ve seen, but I also haven’t focused on that aspect, so perhaps I’ve simply missed it in the past. I don’t know.

Some things are spiritually discerned and I suspect my recollection of the verse was spiritually initiated.

[fishtank]

Wow. Seriously. Now I don’t have 50 dollars ... Ha ha... Oh well, at least I have it in hardcopy.... I LOVE it, though.

I appreciate how Chafer’s teaching gives a biblical basis for moving further from the RCC than the first reformers travelled.

[fishtank]

Some teaching traditions are so nuanced, so refined that merely average pewsitters cannot begin to appreciate.

/sarcasm

inother words, great post and good logic you’ve shown.

[fishtank]

Well, they peddle the “shack” and the “message”, too..... Yes, dreck.

[fishtank]

Have you looked at the www.chafer.edu school in Albuquerque?

I doubt if I would feel at home at DTS either.

[dartuser]

Christ said we must pluck out our eyes and amputate any body part that causes us to sin--will you LITERALLY interpret that advice

The grammatical-historical approach (the dispensational hermeutic) recognizes literary genre and applies the appropriate interpretive devises when the different genre are encountered.

I appreciate your favorite verse ... but it only speaks your truth in isolation. Turn over 2 chapters and I just dont see Paul teaching that the church has replaced Israel; I see him teaching that because of Israels disobediance salvation has come to us Gentiles ... until the full number of us is gathered ... then (apparently in the future) God has a master plan to bring in the entire nation of Israel ... which dispensationalists believe is one of the primary reasons for the great tribulation.

"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! "

"I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!"

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you."

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in ... and so all Israel will be saved"

[CondoleezzaProtege]

that’s all good and true, but that doesn’t say that one is special or has God’s favor by living within the geopolitical borders of a nation-state!!! Only that thankfully, some Jews WILL indeed come to faith in Christ.

Without faith in Christ, we all perish and face God’s eternal wrath. Salvation is ultimately not divided along racial and ethnic lines.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

(like E.W. Bullinger, Charles Welch, et al.).

What! You don;t believe the “Body of Christ” began at Acts 28?

How about the C R Stamm version, or the J C O’Hair dates.;-D

[Tzfat]

The verb is in the present tense. So, it indicates the things that are a "shadow" are things that are in process of being revealed - not a dispensational "past tense" where the "old things have been replaced by new things."

I am a Torah-observant Messianic believer (which means I am absolutely not dispensational). I once had a dear friend of mine (who is dispensational) take me to task for "keeping the Sabbath" and "not eating pork" etc. Then he quoted Colossians 2:16. I asked him to read it again, and then I said, "I am not judging you at all, so why are you judging me for those things." Of course, it had completely escaped his notice that the passage could be read exactly the opposite of what he was used to seeing.

It is my conviction that this passage was being written to people who DID keep the Sabbath etc, and they were being told that instead, they should not - and to adopt a form of astheticism, founded upon man-made regulations ("don't touch" etc.). Further proof of this is found in Paul's use of stoicheion in verse 20 (elemetary elements) which in classical Greek refers to "earth, wind, and fire" - in other word, a form of asthetic paganism that was being coupled with biblical theology.

[Cvengr]

We might be interpreting dispensationalism by two different metrics. When I address dispensationalism, I am not combining much more doctrine than merely affirming God had different administrations in different ages, but His Word remains true throughout. I haven’t discerned all the distinctions such as those made by Fruchtenbaum between different flavors of dispensationalism, but find dispensationalism to be a natural growth in theology from Catholicism to Protestant theology via Reformed through more literal interpretations offered in dispensationalism.

Of course I enjoy also studying from the original languages although I am still learning.

Where have you found to be the best sources of Hebrew and Greek language education for Biblical study?

[Tzfat]

Where have you found to be the best sources of Hebrew and Greek language education for Biblical study?

My best source is Tim Hegg - who is passible in Greek, but outstanding on Hebrew. He is the author of "The Letter Writer" (Paul, from a First Century Judaism perspective). In my opinion, he as been a much better representative of the Messianic/Hebrew Roots movement than Fruchtenbaum.

Dispensationalism and the Hebrew Roots movement are on more friendly terms than "Replacement Theology" - because of our mutual literal approach to Scripture, but Fruchtenbaum most certainly does not represent the vast majority of us in the movement. We see dispensationalism as a mechanism to avoid the inevitable conclusion that "Christianity" is, and will always be "Jewish" (with credits to Edith Schaeffer).