A different take on the Carthage mob -- BYU Studies Symposium

Mormon Times ^ | March 13, 2010 | Nick Newman

[reaganaut]

So what’s your point, since the mob people didn’t suffer a curse it must have been ok for them to have killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith? You must be really pleased.

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Murder is NEVER O.K., but neither is claiming ‘martyrdom’ for someone who was armed, fighting and died in a gun battle.

Martyrs DO NOT fight back. (Acts 6-8).

[reaganaut]

Don’t scholars of American history know when to use the word “prosopography”?

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LOL. American historians? No.

When I was in Grad school there was a huge rivalry between the Ancient/Medievalist Historians and the American Historians.

The AH thought the A/M were irrelevant and the A/M thought the AH were lazy because sources were plenty and they didn’t need to do the language work.

[reaganaut]

It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law.

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Legally it may be self defense, but thank you for showing that it wasn’t really a martyrdom.

[Colofornian]

BTW Joey Smith was all liquered up...They had been drinking ...Joey Smith might have been shooting wildly all over the room...Easy to shoot your own brother when you have a snoot full...

The Mormon author I cited earlier about the mysterious back wound, George W. Givens, wrote in the same book:

A most persistent story in Mormon history is that the soon-to-be-attacked prisoners in Carthage Jail sent out for a bottle of wine. When John Taylor heard an apologist report that it was taken as a sacrament, he said, 'It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent to revive us.' A lesser-known fact is that Joseph had earlier adjudicated the case of some brethren who had been brought before him for drinking whiskey. He concluded by saying 'no evil had been done' and even gave the men some money to 'replenish the bottle to stimulate them in the fatigues of their sleepless journey.' The interpretation of the Word of Wisdom advice seemed to vary over time." (500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History, pp. 45-46)

Hmmm...TWO references by Lds "prophets" describing alcohol NOT as the depressant it is, but as a stimulant. (So much for Mormons trying to tout how their "prophets" know all about these "healthful" issues!!!)

And TN, you make a point worth considering: How much of the wine was drunk by their leader? (No doubt, the other three men in the room would have deferred to Joseph having as much as he wanted)

[reaganaut]

LOL. Importance??

There is no proof that Smith did ANY of those things, and a great deal of evidence that HE did NOT do those things but was a charlatan, liar, and fraud.

Your ‘feelings’ don’t make the LDS church the Church of Jesus Christ.

[Colofornian]

Not according to the sequence of events recounted by John Taylor, which you yourself quoted: I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. . . . Hyrum Smith was shot before Joseph Smith returned fire with his six-shooter. Moreover, Joseph "opened the door slightly" and fired at the attackers outside the room; Hyrum was on the floor inside the room.

Well, this indeed may be the sequence. But just because you tell a sequence doesn't mean ALL of the details were included -- especially if Taylor didn't know every detail!

There was a reason Hyrum was at the door; and it's likely because those from the mob had already opened fire (I doubt the first shot is the one that shot Hyrum in the face). So if Hyrum is at the door, the shooting has already begun from people just outside the door. And if Joseph is trying to shoot one through the door, he may have missed & shot Hyrum in the back right around the exact same time as Hyrum was shot by a member of the mob through the door!

It doesn't change who killed Hyrum. But it's really the only explanation for a back wound of a man who is laying on the floor, back-down, since he was killed.

[reaganaut]

I’d be curious to know of any evidence that any of the jailed men were intoxicated.

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There are contemporary accounts by survivors that state that that Smith gave the jailer some money and the jailer delivered alcohol so that ‘their spirits would be lifted’.

[greyfoxx39]

Really? If they were truly criminals, then I should think that what they deserved was a trial by jury in a court of law based on the charges against them, not execution by a mob. You think killing by a mob is what they deserved, not a trial by jury?

I MUCH would have preferred a trial by jury. Had Smith lived, his lies and crimes would eventually have caught up with him and his phony religion exposed for what it is.

Millions of souls that are now in danger could have been saved and possibly led to the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

[Texan Tory]

“You are mentally unbalanced.
How are you qualified to make such a statement”

I’m not qualified to make such a statement, and I shouldn’t have said it. To Tennessee Nana, I take back what I said, as far as I know your mental health is just fine, and I’m sorry I insulted you.

[reaganaut]

I agree. If Smith had lived, the LDS church would have collapsed.

[Tennessee Nana]

It just seems doubtful to me that Smith would have fired until he was fired upon.
______________________________________________

Mindreading Joey Smith..

Did you ever know him ???

He died in 1844...

Joey Smith was a conman ands criminal ...he was not just an innocent bystander

Joey Smith was the kind who would fire first...He had a gun smuggled into jail to him...what did he need it if he did not intent to use it ??? Premediatation right there...

He murdered and robbed people and stole their wives and daughters...then played the victim card when they complained or reteliated or protected themselves from him...

That time he was tarred and feathered ???

He had seduced young Nancy Johnson while he was living in the Johnson home...

Worse had been planned for that sexual predator...

There was a doctor there with a very sharp instrument...

[Tennessee Nana]

2. Acting under the direction Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith organized the Church of Jesus Christ.
___________________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The Bible records that Jesus Himself “organized” His Church once and for all but then What does the Christian Bible know...

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18

[Tennessee Nana]

You’re forgiven...

You might need to read more about Joey Smith and his life...

That was not the first time he was arrested for crimes and in jail...

One time he was in jail for a while and escaped...

he never had a trial that time either...

The first time he was in jail ha was about 19, years before he ever “founded” his home made religion, mormonism...

Due to his age, (Not considered an adult then) he was let go and didnt get prison time...

[vladimir998]

Your experience in grad school was exactly the same as mine on that score!

[reaganaut]

:)

[Elsie]

And you’re the paragon of mental health. That’s nice.

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temple recommend questions

 

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

[Elsie]

Birds of a feather?

[Elsie]

The Mormon author ...

HMMmm...

 

Maybe they wuz jus' durty and needed a BATH!!??

 

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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

 

1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

 

  1 A ^aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

  2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the ^aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and ^bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

  3 Given for a principle with ^apromise, adapted to the capacity of the ^bweak and the weakest of all ^csaints, who are or can be called saints.

  4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of ^aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of ^bconspiring men in the last days, I have ^cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

  5 That inasmuch as any man ^adrinketh ^bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

  6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, ^apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

  7 And, again, ^astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

  8 And again, tobacco is not for the ^abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

  9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

  10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome ^aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

  11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with ^aprudence and ^bthanksgiving.

  12 Yea, ^aflesh also of ^bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ^csparingly;

  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be ^aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or ^bfamine.

  14 All ^agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

  15 And ^athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

  16 All grain is good for the ^afood of man; as also the ^bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

  17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

  18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

  19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

  20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

  21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the ^adestroying angel shall ^bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

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[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Joey Smith might have been shooting wildly all over the room...***

There is a possibility that the revolver fired more than one barrel when the gun was fired, something these early revolvers were known to do. It is called “flashover.”

Maybe he was shooting at the men in the door while Hyrum was trying to close the door and the second cylinder shot hit Hyrum.

If the Reorganized church still has the bodies stashed maybe we can get a autopsy on Hyrum.

[Tennessee Nana]

Well there might be much left of Hyrum, but the bullet will still be there...