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Dangerous Exit from Comfort Zone: Imminent Passover Offering on Temple Mount
Manhigut Yehudit--The Jewish Leadership Movement ^ | 3/25/'10 | Moshe Feiglin

Posted on 03/25/2010 7:33:55 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator

hen Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them: 'Draw out, and take lambs according to your families, and kill the Passover lamb. 24 And you shall observe this matter for an ordinance for you and your sons for ever. 26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you: What do you mean you by this service? 27. And you shall say: It is the sacrifice of G-d's Passover, for He passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses.' (Exodus 12)

Soon, with G-d's help, we will establish Jewish leadership for Israel. Please be forewarned that when that happens, our familiar, comfortable Pesach holiday will be radically changed. We will have to forget about the Pesach seder with the extended family at the home of the family balabusta. Instead, we will be face to face with the Korban Pesach (Passover offering) at the Temple Mount.

For those who have forgotten, the Korban Pesach is a positive commandment, equal in its importance to the mitzvah of brit milah (circumcision). The mitzvah of circumcision is a personal covenant between a Jew and his Father in heaven. The Pesach offering is the national covenant between the Jewish Nation and its Father in heaven. These two commandments forged the Jewish People as the unique nation of the Creator – both as individuals and as a collective.

Today, a Jewish policeman stands at the entrance to the Temple Mount and explains to the Jews that they are prohibited from praying there. A request to bring a sacrificial lamb is out of the question. When we will finally establish Jewish leadership for Israel, though, the same policeman will stand at the entrance to the Temple Mount and cheerfully explain what you need to know, ensuring that you are well-versed in the Jewish laws that must be observed during your momentous visit.

In truth, it is not the policeman who blocks our entrance to the Temple Mount. It is the observant Jews whose Torah and faith are still in exile. They/we feel more comfortable when our covenant with G-d remains exclusively in the realm of the individual. It's great to be religious in your home and "Israeli" in public. The people subscribed to this mode of living will go to great lengths to avoid being a complete Jew in the complete Land of Israel – both in private and in public. In other words, at some level, all of us have a little policeman in our hearts, blocking the entrance to the Temple Mount. That is why we have a full-sized, flesh and blood policeman at its gates.

When we establish Jewish leadership for Israel, all of this will be distant memory. The prime minister and his cabinet will ascend to the Temple Mount with their sacrificial lambs. The entire national mentality will change, and there will be no more lame excuses for not bringing the Pesach offering.

Instead of sitting in the comfort of our living rooms and chewing on matzah that symbolizes the Pesach offering, we will joyously sit in the streets and alleys surrounding the Temple Mount, eating our roasted sacrificial lamb.

The international uproar will be deafening. How will we be able to conduct "peace" negotiations when the entire Jewish Nation is at the Temple Mount with their Pesach offerings? And who will protect us from Iran? And what will Obama do? And how will Russia react? And what about the European Union? What will we explain?

27. And you shall say: It is the sacrifice of G-d's Passover, for He passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses.'

Happy Festival of Freedom,

Moshe Feiglin


TOPICS: Current Events; Judaism; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: exile; pesachoffering; seder; templemount
Again, I am no poseq on this matter (or any other), so it is possible that Qorban Pesach awaits the coming of Mashiach. Still this is food for thought.
1 posted on 03/25/2010 7:33:55 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: Alouette; rmlew; Nachum; Yehuda; dervish; TorahTrueJew; hlmencken3; Yomin Postelnik
Ping for your interest.

If any of you disagree with Mosheh and believe it is impermissible at this time to offer the Pesach, please feel free to share your opinons.

2 posted on 03/25/2010 7:35:56 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

He is right. When the temple is rebuilt, the “korban Pesach” would again be offered.


3 posted on 03/25/2010 7:41:05 AM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: Nachum
He is right. When the temple is rebuilt, the “korban Pesach” would again be offered.

I am aware of that. But he sounds like he believes the qorban can and must be brought now, without a Temple.

I know it's very complicated, but I thought there were those who are vehemently opposed to bringing the qorban prior to Mashiach and the Temple.

4 posted on 03/25/2010 7:43:43 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Moshe is correct! I especially liked this

In truth, it is not the policeman who blocks our entrance to the Temple Mount. It is the observant Jews whose Torah and faith are still in exile. They/we feel more comfortable when our covenant with G-d remains exclusively in the realm of the individual.
5 posted on 03/25/2010 7:44:31 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Why was the Mishkan good enough for 400 years but now we must have stone? It is time for Hashem to erect a Tabernacle on Har Habayit!


6 posted on 03/25/2010 7:47:26 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I do believe we are very close to the Mashiach coming. I saw on JLTV a couple of weeks ago where the Temple Institute is building a replica of the Temple to teach about the sacrifices and other religious practices. Very interesting. I’m assuming that this is in preparation for when the Temple is rebuilt on the Temple Mount. Which will happen before Messiah comes.


7 posted on 03/25/2010 7:47:29 AM PDT by MsLady (If you died tonight, where would you go? Salvation, don't leave earth without it!)
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To: MsLady
I do believe we are very close to the Mashiach coming. I saw on JLTV a couple of weeks ago where the Temple Institute is building a replica of the Temple to teach about the sacrifices and other religious practices. Very interesting. I’m assuming that this is in preparation for when the Temple is rebuilt on the Temple Mount. Which will happen before Messiah comes.

I am aware of all this, but this activity is actually quite controversial. There are those poseqim and Gedolim who say that building the implements of the Temple at this time are forbidden and those built by the Temple Institute will not be kosher for the Beit HaMiqdash.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be open, but also very cautious.

8 posted on 03/25/2010 7:51:33 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I know it's very complicated, but I thought there were those who are vehemently opposed to bringing the qorban prior to Mashiach and the Temple.

Ah. I get it. I was not sure if that was his suggestion.-

Jewish law is quite clear on the matter. Until Moshiach comes and the temple is rebuilt, there are no Korbans at all. The laws of this in the Talmud are extensive as to the service in the Temple. It sounds more like a political speech on his part at the intransigence of his fellow Jews to make it happen.

9 posted on 03/25/2010 7:53:39 AM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
“I know it's very complicated, but I thought there were those who are vehemently opposed to bringing the qorban prior to Mashiach and the Temple.”

It must be very, very complicated because the faithful offered up the first Passover without either. I pray for peace and abundant blessings in and on the City of Jerusalem. Whichever side of the lamp you sit on, the light shone first in its streets and in the hearts of its people. Shalom and Happy Passover. There isn't an Easter that passes that I don't think of you on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

10 posted on 03/25/2010 7:54:35 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Constitutions Grandchild
It must be very, very complicated because the faithful offered up the first Passover without either.

The "first Passover" was Pesach Mitzrayim, which happened only once. The annual Passover is Pesach Dorot. The rules are different. And to not follow the rules would be me`ilah (sacrilege), a very dangerous thing.

I pray for peace and abundant blessings in and on the City of Jerusalem. Whichever side of the lamp you sit on, the light shone first in its streets and in the hearts of its people. Shalom and Happy Passover. There isn't an Easter that passes that I don't think of you on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Well, personally I'm not Jewish so you're probably not thinking of me, but I know what you mean, and i deeply appreciate it.

11 posted on 03/25/2010 7:58:00 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Ok, I think I understand, even just making the implements for any other Temple is forbidden. Did I understand that right? If so, then how and where do you teach? It sounded that the Temple Institute was building it for teaching. At least that’s how I took it.


12 posted on 03/25/2010 8:00:09 AM PDT by MsLady (If you died tonight, where would you go? Salvation, don't leave earth without it!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I don’t want to make too big a flap over this, but I thought the people likely to read this story might know the answer I’m looking for.

I was raised Preysbeterian (lite) and later other things. Most of my religious philosophy is self-taught and self-earned, recognizing that, “none comes to The Father, except he be drawn by Him.”

Every year, our best friends invite us to thier Seder Table, and we delight in that honor. We read from the Haggudah (sic?) and I find its message of enduring and struggling Freedom and Liberty very applicable to modern times, and not just our current mess.

To me, a deconstructed, reconstructed, readjusted Christian, Passover is about Freedom more than any other subject, except perhaps to properly thank and praise God.

This year, due to some health issues on their end, they will not be celebrating (is that the right word?) at their Seder table.

Even though I’ve read from the Haggudah (sic?) each year for more than twenty years, I’ve not memorized much of it.

If my wife and I choose to do this rememberance at our own dinner table this year, and hoping for a restoration of things next year, what central idea or thing lies at the middle essence of the thing? Not to do it all, but what key words or actions would mark the day appropriately?

(For example, in the Catholic Mass, the Central Act is the reception of the Host as a rememberance of the Last Supper, which of course itself was a Seder Table.)

So, what lies at the very core of it to mark this year in our hopes, and reasonable expectations, of a return to normal for next year? We feel we should not just let it go by unobserved.

What could we do, simply, at our own house to honor the thing?

...with respect,


13 posted on 03/25/2010 8:00:57 AM PDT by William of Barsoom (In Omnia, Paratus)
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To: MsLady
Ok, I think I understand, even just making the implements for any other Temple is forbidden. Did I understand that right? If so, then how and where do you teach? It sounded that the Temple Institute was building it for teaching. At least that’s how I took it.

Again, I'm not an expert; I'm just trying to be careful.

As I understand it, the implements for the Temple cannot be made until the Temple has been rebuilt, and the Temple can only be rebuilt by Mashiach.

I have read that the construction of replicas of the Temple implements for "educational purposes" is an attempt to get around this prohibition and that therefore such implements are not kosher.

As I said, people who understand the issues are welcome to clarify the matter.

14 posted on 03/25/2010 8:08:42 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Ok, that does make it clearer, that the Temple has to be built by Mashiach. Interesting!!!! That's the part that I didn't know. Is that tradition? Or in the Torah someplace? If so, where in the Torah.

It's probably obvious to you I'm not Jewish, but, I have a heart for Israel and the Jewish people and would like to understand and learn.

15 posted on 03/25/2010 8:30:27 AM PDT by MsLady (If you died tonight, where would you go? Salvation, don't leave earth without it!)
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To: MsLady
Ok, that does make it clearer, that the Temple has to be built by Mashiach. Interesting!!!! That's the part that I didn't know. Is that tradition? Or in the Torah someplace? If so, where in the Torah.

There's very little in the Written Torah on Mashiach (just as there is on the afterlife or the world-to-come), except at a very deep level. All these things are elucidated in the Oral Torah which was also given by G-d.

16 posted on 03/25/2010 8:34:31 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Is the Oral Torah written down? Or just passed down through word of mouth??? I’m just curios is all. There is no real Jewish community to speak of, where I live. If there was I’d be trying to take some sort of classes to learn more. I use to live in DC for years, but, now live about as far north as you can get without being in Canada and there is not much here.


17 posted on 03/25/2010 8:43:01 AM PDT by MsLady (If you died tonight, where would you go? Salvation, don't leave earth without it!)
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To: William of Barsoom

May God bless all of those who are reading this thread. I have the utmost respect for all of you who have posted here.

The following question was posed: “What could we do, simply, at our own house to honor the thing?”

As a Christian, I have no way to answer your question as it relates to your wish to honor the Jewish ceremony. But, as for my friends and myself, the one thing we do as it relates to Passover is to recognize it’s symbolism as prophesy.

In the final plague, the blood of the lamb prevented death from approaching God’s chosen, his children. And in order to obtain freedom, the children of God had to walk “through the blood” as they left their Egyptian homes.

Christians, as I’m sure all of you know, believe that Jesus of Nazareth’s claim was true, that He was indeed the Messiah, the “lamb of God”, whose blood protects us from death, and through which we obtain freedom. We believe that He rose from the dead, and that He will physically return, and is in fact, the One for whom modern Jews are waiting.

Whether Jew or Gentile, I hope for all who read this a safe and meaningful Passover/Easter.


18 posted on 03/25/2010 9:13:45 AM PDT by HeadOn (If you choose to depend solely on the government to care for you, you are a COWARD and a FOOL.)
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To: MsLady
Is the Oral Torah written down? Or just passed down through word of mouth??? I’m just curios is all. There is no real Jewish community to speak of, where I live. If there was I’d be trying to take some sort of classes to learn more. I use to live in DC for years, but, now live about as far north as you can get without being in Canada and there is not much here.

The "Oral Torah" was originally that--oral. Originally it, along with the Talmudic logic that accompanied it, was passed down from father to son and teacher to disciple, often in the very same words in which it had been received. However, during the reign of the evil emperor Hadrian (rot his bones!), when the Oral Torah was literally threatened with extension, it began to be written down (which was permitted in just such a case). The first was the Mishnah, which was frozen in its modern form by Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi' (and later written down in that very form). This was followed by the two Gemara's, the Yerushalmi and the Bavli (the Bavli is the normative one). Since that time the Oral Torah has been studied in this form, known as the Talmud.

Have you ever noticed how sparse the Written Torah is? It says nothing about the afterlife, about the world to come, and contains, on the face of it, very little prophecy (though all these things are buried within it at very deep levels). For forty years in the desert the Jews studied the Torah and all its details (RaMBa"M describes the process) before the twelve tribal scrolls were ever written down shortly before Moses' death.

The Written Torah has no vowels and no punctuation. Without the Oral Torah (which preserves the correct vocalization and punctuation) it would be indecipherable.

The Torah commands that certain sacrifices be "heaved" and others to be "waved." There are even occasions when people are "waved." Yet the Written Torah contains no instructions whatsoever for just what this "heaving" and "waving" consists of. They are found in the Oral Torah, without which these instructions of the Written Torah could not be carried out.

Exodus Chapter 12 begins with the words "this shall be the first month of the year to you." Almost everyone knows that the Jewish calendar is based on the moon, yet these few words are all that is recorded in the Written Torah about the Jewish calendar. Just what constitutes the "new moon?" Did Moses use an Old Farmer's Almanac? Instead G-d gave Moses a very complicated system for reckoning the months and new moons, yet you won't find anything about it in the Written Torah.

I hope this helps to explain.

19 posted on 03/25/2010 9:32:17 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; All
see
I have it on good authority the the newly formed Sanhedrin is planning a Korban Pesach this coming Pesach.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

20 posted on 03/26/2010 6:31:55 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

No one takes this “sanhedrion” seriously.


21 posted on 03/26/2010 8:13:52 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
No one takes this “sanhedrion” seriously.

Who is your "no one" ??

YHvH ??

Allah ??

The Evil One ??

Hamas ??

Fatah ??

Waqf ??


22 posted on 03/26/2010 9:03:21 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
The Gedolim don't take it seriously. It is made up of modernists (who want to bend the Torah to modern sensibilities) and radical, rabid "interfaith" advocates.
23 posted on 03/26/2010 9:15:25 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The Gedolim don't take it seriously. It is made up of modernists (who want to bend the Torah to modern sensibilities) and radical, rabid "interfaith" advocates.

Gadol !

How about the Kohen Gadol in Jerusalem.


24 posted on 03/26/2010 9:51:06 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Shabbat Shalom on this Shabbat Hagadol
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

25 posted on 03/26/2010 10:54:35 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
How about the Kohen Gadol in Jerusalem.

There is no Kohen Gadol at this time.

26 posted on 03/26/2010 11:03:59 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Nachum

The korban pesach is the only sacrifice that can be brought without the Temple. Evidence from Byzantine records indicate that it was brought, at least irregularly, up until the 6th century. There is no Halachic impediment to bringing it today.


27 posted on 03/28/2010 7:32:09 AM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
The korban pesach is the only sacrifice that can be brought without the Temple. Evidence from Byzantine records indicate that it was brought, at least irregularly, up until the 6th century. There is no Halachic impediment to bringing it today.

Does it require an altar?

28 posted on 03/28/2010 7:44:46 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Mah nishtannah halaylah hazeh mikol haleylot?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Yes. But the altar can be constructed anywhere on the Temple Mount. It doesn’t use the same altar that every other sacrifice used. In fact, in Temple times, there were dozens of altars constructed for the korban pesach, to enable thousands of lambs to be slaughtered as quickly as possible.


29 posted on 03/28/2010 8:20:34 AM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
Yes. But the altar can be constructed anywhere on the Temple Mount. It doesn’t use the same altar that every other sacrifice used. In fact, in Temple times, there were dozens of altars constructed for the korban pesach, to enable thousands of lambs to be slaughtered as quickly as possible.

It may be an interesting Pesach this year.

30 posted on 03/28/2010 8:29:59 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Mah nishtannah halaylah hazeh mikol haleylot?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

The Israeli Supreme Court has already rejected the petition to hold the korban pesach. This happens every year: some group plans to hold it, the police threaten arrests, the group petitions the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court sides with the cops. There is nothing new under the sun.


31 posted on 03/28/2010 8:35:02 AM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
The moslems should have been evicted fromHar HaBayit in '67.

Have you ever read a ruling of any kind about the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem being required to evacuate the city for the duration of Pesach if Har HaBayit were in Jewish hands but no qorban pesach was brought?

32 posted on 03/28/2010 8:42:09 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Mah nishtannah halaylah hazeh mikol haleylot?)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
There is no Halachic impediment to bringing it today.

Just an Israeli supreme court impediment.

33 posted on 03/28/2010 10:02:10 AM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I have never heard of such a ruling.


34 posted on 03/28/2010 12:09:34 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
I have never heard of such a ruling.

I saw it somewhere online. I believe it was attributed to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

One final question (and please forgive me for being so much trouble on such a busy day): could the qorban pesach be offered according to the current, fixed calendar, or would the date of the new moon have to be established by the testimony of two witnesses?

35 posted on 03/28/2010 1:55:43 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Mah nishtannah halaylah hazeh mikol haleylot?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I’m hardly an expert. But I don’t think you’d need the testimony of two witnesses, which would require a Sanhedrin.


36 posted on 03/28/2010 2:10:51 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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