Posted on 04/06/2010 7:07:19 AM PDT by truthfinder9
That, in terms of values and free will, you've collapsed the entire hierarchy of being. Human=duck=planarian=corn.
The key difference is the language is the language. Without it, you can't be a liar and a hypocrite or a fool. With animals there is no false pretense.
In your description humans are, if anything, worse than animals. Your deep misanthropy is another point.
you can't be a liar and a hypocrite or a fool.
Only those who see themselves as, and act as though they are, pleasure-seeking lower animals are wise, honest and discerning.
Another "words mean their opposite."
And, yes, we can, under circumstances, choose that which doesn't feel good. So can animals. Cornered by fire, animals will opt for an act of desperation they would otherwise never choose.
Your straw man is getting bigger and bigger.
I think you're trying to define everything else away, as in "if you value it it feels good, therefore all values reduce to feel good."
Everything we choose on our own (not coerced) is a "feels good." Oftentimes, that which feels good is an ideal rather than something real; ideals usually established by the society tom which we belong. In multicultural societies, these ideals vary across each subculture, as well as time.
Consider, for example, the value of female virginity and how that changed. Is that even an issue in western societies anymore, regardless be they predominantly Protestant or Catholic? But at one time a girl had to make sure she either retained it or somehow faked it if she had any hopes of ever getting married.
Otherwise she was considered "damaged goods" that one couldn't even give away. Obviously the society and individuals believed there was something "good," even essential about virginity. After all, the highest Christian saint is best known for it.
[What makes us human is the language] Not responsive to the question of what makes us different in terms of this discussion
Nonsense. That is one single factor that distinguishes human beings anatomically, biologically, and socially form other animals.
I use words according tom their agreed upon meaning. masochists derive pleasure from pain or humiliation, ergo pain/humiliation = "feels good."
The Oxford Dictionary definition of masochism is very clear about that:
Those who are not masochists do not experience pain/humiliation as something desirable or "feels good." People do what they experience as "feels good" no matter how repulsive or undesirable it may seem to another person.
He still can choose otherwise (not pleasure) and the argument remains the same
He can if he is forced to. But left to his own choosing, he will choose what feels good.
No such thing as unrequited love in your world
Well maybe you enjoy loving those who hurt you. I don't.
[Why feed the dog who bites you?] Perhaps you don't want it to starve.
The issue is whether you would love him even if he bit the hand that feeds him.
And if it's not a dog, but a human, your child hypothetically, would you see it any differently?
No difference. Especially a human who should know better.
I have no doubts that.
Only those who see themselves as, and act as though they are, pleasure-seeking lower animals are wise, honest and discerning
No, just honest.
You cannot, at least logically, prove your argument by defining thus:
Everything we choose on our own (not coerced) is a “feels good.”
Your argument is an attempt to define away any value except feels good. You can say you don’t have any other values, but you can’t re-define: choice = “feels good”.
Sorry.
Ergo it matters not a twit in a discussion of whether one can choose a higher value than their own pleasure - however they derive it.
yes, we do have other values. They either make us avoid things or ignore them. They are not on our free will repertoire.
I don't understand what is a "higher" value? That is a nonsense label imo
In this case something more important to you than your own pleasure, higher in that sense.
Two problems. First: Doesn't logically follow that people cannot choose something for no reward whatsoever. You can do this experiment for yourself.
Second problem: Rewarding does not necessarily mean "feels good."
We set our goals as rewards.
Not necessarily. Goals can just be goals.
Our desires are based on what feels good.>/i>
Desire≠values.
What is?
To whom? Always themselves only? And why not just stop at "hurtful" or just not "feels good."?
I say that gets pretty loose with the meaning of words, and ends the same place.
I disagree with this,dear brother.
I have desire for things that I would be willing to suffer for(not feeling good) my family and someone like you to return to the Orthodox faith and Eucharist
Okay. I thought you were using it as euphemis for "nobler." However, I can't imagine anythng "higher" than what feels good and right that I, or any human bieng could possibly value.
They can but not on their own will.
Rewarding does not necessarily mean "feels good."
I can't think of something experienced as a reward that feels bad. It wouldn't be a reward.
Goals can just be goals.
Are your goals to fail, be fired, starve, go broke, get sick, be killed, or hurt?
Goals of NORMAL people are to achieve that which feels good, your goals notwithstanding.
Desire≠values
That's novel. We desire that which we value; nevertheless, base don your arguments you may desire worthless, dead-end things.
That which "feels good."
Average statistically normal adult doe snot desire, plan, strive, etc. to be hurt, to fail, to be fired, to be broke, sick, unhappy, etc. is this really "news" to you?
It boils down to this: organism doesn't like to be hurt, pained, killed. Why? I don't know. That's how organisms behave. That's what humans verbalize. Perhaps it's an atavistic genetic trait that serves no other purpose but to preserve the species, for whatever reason. But that's how it is. It's selfish to the bone.
I know you would, dear stafassisi, and I know you are concerned. I appreciate that. But I believe your pain, while far from something you'd enjoy, would still give you satisfaction if it could give you what you desire.
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