Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.
Posted on 05/07/2010 10:01:45 PM PDT by Salvation
This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.
This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:
The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.
The teachings of Roman Catholic Christianity about the role of Mary, the Mother of Jesus, are some of the most misunderstood and exaggerated beliefs dividing the Body of Christ. Before presenting the teaching of the Church about Mary, there are some important givens or assumptions to be stated about the Church, Mary and the Bible.
The official teaching of the Church has never considered beliefs about Mary to be in any way equal in importance to truths about God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit. Vatican Council II expressed it best when the Council Fathers wrote:
The truths about Mary are important because they are still truth, since they are based in the Bible. But they are not central to the primary gospel message of our salvation through Jesus Christ. As an example of the basic gospel message without Mary, we have only to look at the writings of Paul. In Pauline theology, Mary is mentioned only once, and not even by name.
Roman Catholics believe that the understanding of the Church about Mary, as about all Christian truth (e.g., the understanding of the Trinity) deepens and becomes more accurate over the centuries under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
When the Catholic Church appears to teach "new doctrines" about Mary, it is often a statement of truth against some current errors or a clarification of truths that have always been taught and believed by Christians through the centuries. The Church believes that handing on these truths participates in the admonition of Paul.
Consequently, two fundamental criteria guide the teaching authority of the Catholic Church as it seeks to discern what are the authentic beliefs about Mary which Jesus through His Holy Spirit would have us know:
Make sure you pack your Seinfeld DVDs to take with you for your particular judgment.
I’ve never considered those blokes infallibale in any sense of the word.
Are you saying they asserted the same things Ferraro’s text asserts?
God have mercy.
What an amazing example the Blessed Mother is for us all!!!
Tuesday, April 29, 2008
Baptist Pastor Ken Temple Proves That St. Paul Was a Blasphemer Who Claimed That People Can Save Others (Mariology & Synergistic Soteriology)
Rembrandt, The Apostle Paul, c. 1657
This comes from a combox concerning Mariology. Ken’s words will be in blue. The title and some of my humorous remarks are, of course, tongue-in-cheek and “turning-the-tables” or reductio ad absurdum rhetoric.
* * * * *
Ken wrote, citing Catholics (dunno who, though, because he provided no primary documentation):
The Flowery language of praise in prayer is wrong and she is made too much of and exalted beyond what the Scriptures say. Praying to Mary is much more than just “asking her to pray for us”:
Prayer: O Mary, no one receives any favor except through you. Help me to ask you each day for the graces I need to remain faithful in my state of life.”
O Mary, your holy name is great and brings us salvation. Let me strive to speak it with true love, boundless joy, and complete confidence.”
O Mary, you are our Mother and our Teacher, instructing us in how to live. Help me to heed your inspirations and follow your Divine Son more closely.
pp. 98-99 Mary Day by Day, 1987 Catholic Book Publishing, Nihil Obstat: Daniel V. Flynn . . . Imprimatur: Patrick J. Sheridan, D.D. Vicar General, Archdiocese of NY.
“Mary brings salvation!” What more evidence do we need of exalting her above the Lord and only Savior, Jesus Christ? All of these facts and this blasphemous statement and prayer alone should keep any thinking Evangelical from being duped into converting to Rome by the tricks of always raising doubt and skepticism as to how do we know for sure who are in the right church, historical church, Newman’s “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant” arguments.
Very well, then, Ken. Great! You have succeeded in proving that the Bible and St. Paul both are blasphemous and exalt the Apostle Paul above Our Lord Jesus, since we have these passages in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[Paul “saves” other people, thus clearly placing himself above God, and blaspheming, right, Ken?]
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
[Good grief! What blasphemy! After his own outrageous claims, St. Paul now thinks that Timothy can save himself (the Pelagian heresy) and those who hear him. Doesn’t he know that only God can save??!!!]
Philippians 2:12b-13 . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
[Paul again blasphemously teaches Pelagianism, or works-salvation. Folks are taking the place of God by working out their own salvation???!!!! If someone says that God is mentioned in the second part, the Calvinist “monergist” still has to explain how a human being can participate at all in what only God can do (according to the monergist) ]
2 Corinthians 4:15 For it [his many sufferings: 4:8-12,17] is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
Ephesians 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you...
Ephesians 4:29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[Paul distributes divine grace, just as we believe Mary does, and teaches that others can do the same]
St. Peter also joins in this folly of teaching that Christians can distribute divine grace to each other:
1 Peter 4:8b-10 . . . love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace.
So much for papal infallibility, huh???
Even the angels help to give grace:
Revelation 1:4-5a John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ . . .
[it was nice of John to add in Jesus Christ at the end, along with his own and the angels’ giving of grace, just so we’ll remember that there is but one mediator of God’s grace. Not a lot of “monergism” there, I reckon . . .]
In fact, Paul is so gung-ho on the notion of his distributing grace to folks, that he mentions this at the beginning of practically every epistle that he wrote. I wrote in another paper of mine:
Grace, however, is also referred to in Scripture as in some sense “quantifiable”. Lutherans and Protestants in general try to deny this; they usually view grace as simply “God’s favor”; that which saves one, in a non-quantifiable sense (as in, e.g., Rom 6:14; Eph 2:8-10). The biblical usage is more complex and nuanced than that, . . . [many examples given]
In fact, it can be plausibly argued, that when Paul and others use the common greeting of “grace to you” (e.g., Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:2; Col 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1; 2 Thess 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Rev 1:4) it is in the same quantifiable sense: i.e., “may God give you more grace.” It doesn’t make sense if it is intended only in the broad Protestant meaning (that we agree with as far as it goes) of “you are saved by grace alone”.
Why wish, after all, that someone should have or receive what they already clearly possess? If “grace” only means “the free favor by which we are saved” then the Christians to whom Paul is writing his epistles already have this grace (since Protestants believe in a past salvation that is already accomplished). So why would Paul say “grace to you”? It would be like telling a man who has a daughter “I wish you the blessing of a daughter from God” or a man with a nice mansion: “best wishes to you for a nice mansion.” That makes no sense. Rather, it seems fairly clear, I think, that st. Paul is stating that he hopes and prays that his readers will receive more grace from God, as in the sense of 2 Peter 3:18, Ephesians 4:7, James 4:6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:2, etc.
Good work, Ken! It’s not every day that a Baptist pastor proves by his own words that the Apostle Paul is a blasphemer (along with — as a special bonus — John, Peter, and Timothy) . . .
Related Reading:
Does St. Alphonsus de Liguori, in The Glories of Mary, Teach That Mary is “Above God” and Can “Manipulate God”? (Corrections of Protestant Misunderstandings of Catholic Mariology) (Dave Armstrong vs. Len Lisenbee)
“Whitewashing History”: Critique of James White’s Book, Mary — Another Redeemer? (William Possidento and Dave Armstrong vs. James White)
Dialogue on My Critique of James White’s Book, Mary — Another Redeemer? (+ Part II) (particularly with regard to the differing views on early Mariology of Protestant Church historians J.N.D. Kelly and Philip Schaff) (Dave Armstrong vs. John Q. Doe and “BJ Bear”)
A Biblical and Theological Primer on Mary Mediatrix
Human, Pauline, and Marian Distribution of Divine Graces: Not an “Unbiblical” Notion After All?
Does Mary’s Role as Mediatrix Contradict Jesus Christ as the Sole Mediator? / Response to a Catholic Critic
Dialogue on the Biblical Analogies to the Concept of Mary Mediatrix (Dave Armstrong vs. Robert Bowman)
Mary as Mediatrix: The Patristic, Medieval, and Early Orthodox Evidence
Treatise on the Queenship of Mary, “Queen Mother”, and the Assumption (Steve Ray)
The Imitation of Mary
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/mary-blessed-virgin-index-page.html
Is Mary Worshiped by Catholics? (The Latria / Dulia Distinction)
Did Jesus Renounce Marian Veneration? (Lk 11:27-28 by Dave Armstrong
You have written a heartfelt comment. That said.When we say Jesus thru Mary is only about that He was born of the Virgin Mary. She has a special place in history. Human thru Mary. Not to mean only thru her to go to Jesus. We are all connected thru the Holy Spirit as Believers. The pray starts in Christ. The caution can turn into paranoia when we do not understand.-”If they are aware of what is going on, and can interact with our thoughts, just as angels can, and have love, then it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that we can ask for their intercession.
Think, for example, of the Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appeared and talked to Jesus. Theoretically, they could have been asked by the disciples to pray for them or for some cause. That would have been an example of our asking “dead” people to pray. Nothing in the Bible would prevent them from saying “yes.”
Many Protestants do not grasp the communion of saints, and for some reason feel compelled to collapse every such instance into the “occult” or necromancy or having a seance: “contacting” the dead. The two things are completely different (see my explanation as to why that is).
I should clarify, too, that when we ask Mary to “help” us, we mean by her power of intercession. She can’t grant us things in and of herself, but only by virtue of the graces given to her by God. She is God’s instrument or agent, just as any creature is, but in her exalted position as the Mother of God, she is the best possible creature we can ask to pray for us. Many have greatly misunderstood the flowery language of Marian devotion: as if Mary herself were the source of the blessings and graces received. Not true. God is that, and this is Catholic teaching.” By Dave Armstrong
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/04/why-do-catholics-pray-to-mary.html
Alot of that is flowery language. Its a love for her intercession not to put her above God. I have had people pray for me. I can say they saved me by their pray not to mean their are the Redeemer who saved on the cross. Its really about the power of pray to Christ in him with him in the unity of the Holy Spirit. Which has the saints in unison “ of the u·ni·son (yn-sn, -zn)
n.
1. Music
a. Identity of pitch; the interval of a perfect prime.
b. The combination of parts at the same pitch or in octaves.
2. The act or an instance of speaking the same words simultaneously by two or more speakers.
3. An instance of agreement; concord.
Idiom:
in unison
1. In complete agreement; exactly.
2. At the same time; at once. -http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
Fascinating what some folks equate.
God, however, is not fooled.
On the Comments in big color what is the title of that book with page. You have different styles and color. And author if you can please?
Also just so you know alot of what your talking are not even in the weekly Sunday Mass. People do not pray the Rosary during Mass. Its for private devotions. Everything is centered on Christ and the Trinity. Just so you know.
Right.
True enough.
And
millions of Roman Catholics et al
pay absolutely
no attention
to
Ferraro’s popular, classic Devotional.
/s
Yes, and many continue to bash the Blessed Virgin Mary. As Mother Angela says in the quote above — they will have to answer for it.
Evidently these people have never read the Gospel of Luke.
I never heard of it.
You are right.
God is not foolled and the Catholic Church stands firm on their “un-pagan” beliefs — please read the Gospel of Luke.
And also read these two posts again.
God is always the object of a Catholic’s worship.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2509261/posts?page=7#7
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2509261/posts?page=8#8
I thought we went through this yesterday. Why don’t you get this concept?
Well said.
As has been documented in a diversity of ways from a diversity of sources,
That, at BEST, is a grossly inaccurate statement.
Most accurately, it's simply not true.
And, no amount of white-wash and no amount of white hankies can make it true.
My posts--whether criticizing Pentecostals for their excesses or Roman Catholics for theirs--are not about what they do well and correctly, Biblically.
My posts are frequently targeting things that need serious adjustment--in the lives of thousands, if not millions.
God is always the object of a Catholic’s worship.
As has been documented in a diversity of ways from a diversity of sources,
That, at BEST, is a grossly inaccurate statement.
Most accurately, it's simply not true.
And, no amount of white-wash and no amount of white hankies can make it true.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.
I've never seen anyone on FR bash Mary...So I charge you with making up false accusations unless you can show us where someone bashed Mary...
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