DNA doesn't prove Book of Mormon historicity, either (OPEN)

Mormon Times ^ | May 17, 2010 | Michael R. Ash

[greyfoxx39]

 

 

 

DNA doesn't prove Book of Mormon historicity, either

 

By Michael R. Ash

Monday, May. 17, 2010

The past several issues have established that DNA studies do not refute the historicity of the Book of Mormon. The flip side to this issue is the erroneous claim made by some Latter-day Saints that DNA studies prove the Book of Mormon.

Because the pro-DNA argument is closely tied to a specific geographical model, I'd like to reiterate that there is no official geography for Book of Mormon events. Eventually, I'll discuss the various geography hypotheses and will offer the reasons why I believe that the Mesoamerican model fits best.

But for now it's important to understand that believing Latter-day Saints can respectfully disagree as to where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place.

 

Elder Dallin H. Oaks, speaking of those who participate in non-official venues wherein church-related topics are discussed, observed that sometimes "a volunteer will step forward to present what he or she considers to be the church's position. Sometimes these volunteers are well-informed and capable, and they contribute to a balanced presentation. Sometimes they are not, and their contribution makes matters worse. When attacked by error, truth is better served by silence than by a bad argument."

I wish to "liken" Elder Oaks' comment to the arguments made by those who claim that DNA studies offer evidence or proof for the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Briefly outlined, here is the position taken by those who make such a claim:

1. DNA evidence for the Lehites should be discernible in modern DNA studies.
2. All Native Americans belong to one of the following five mitochondrial lineages (haplogroups): A, B, C, D and X.
3. Haplogroup X, the least common of the five groups, appears to be traceable to the ancient Middle East.
4. Ergo, haplogroup X provides evidence for the existence of Lehites.

The first part of this argument is based on the faulty assumption (as pointed out in the past several issues) that we should expect to find Lehite DNA. The second and third parts of the argument are somewhat accurate (with some caveats). The fourth part, however, is a faulty conclusion unsupported by what we actually know about the origin and distribution of haplogroup X.

Not long after the initial haplotypes A-D were identified in Native American populations, a fifth and more rare haplotype (dubbed "X") was also found among some Native Americans. Sister lineages to the Amerindian haplogroup X are found at low frequencies in many geographic regions of the world including Western Europe, North Africa, East Asia and the Middle East. The presence of haplogroup X in the Americas in primarily limited to the Great Lakes area (which is one of the proposed models for Book of Mormon geography), but it is also found to lesser extents in other parts of North America.

Thanks to an improved analysis of mitochondrial DNA genomes and a greater number of samples available, the Native American haplogroup X is currently termed X2a, a lineage that is not found anywhere else in the world.

As noted in past articles, mtDNA mutations are measured by molecular clocks used to calculate age estimates of the different branches in the mtDNA tree. Currently, there are five different molecular clocks that have been proposed using all or a considerable section of the mtDNA genome. All five clocks provide close estimates for haplogroup X2a indicating that it pre-dates the Lehites' arrival to the Americas by several thousands of years. (For more depth on the measurement of these molecular clocks, see Ugo Perego, "The Book of Mormon and the Origin of Native Americans from a Maternally Inherited DNA Standpoint.") In reality, based on current DNA science and the lack of additional evidence, X2a cannot be linked to the Lehites.

The irony for many of those who attempt to use DNA studies to buttress a belief in the Book of Mormon is that all respectable DNA studies accept (as a fundamental part of DNA science) the principle of evolution and that humans came to the New World over 12,000 years ago. Those who attempt to argue that DNA studies prove the Book of Mormon, however, typically reject the principle of evolution and the early age of man.

Basically, when it comes to DNA science they want to have their cake and eat it too.

I accept the current state of DNA research by those who are experts in the field, adding that it is premature, at best, and irresponsible, at worst, to claim that DNA research may be employed to prove or disprove the authenticity of the Nephite scripture.

[Tennessee Nana]

You must listen to a lot of Muslims to recognize so easily they sound like...

What were you doing in the Mosque ???

[Tennessee Nana]

What if two Mormons are already in the foxhole and don’t want to share it with a Catholic, or whatever you are?
__________________________________________

Then the two mormons would practice their tenet of blood atonement and cut the Catholics throat...

But as the mormons dont rush to join the US military, the Catholic would probably have a Baptist and a Jew for foxhole buddies...

[svcw]

Out for “atonement” today are we? ,-)
You are correct, as a group LDS do not join the military at the same rate as other “faiths”. They do join, just not at the same rate.

[Colofornian]

Out for “atonement” today are we? ,-) You are correct, as a group LDS do not join the military at the same rate as other “faiths”. They do join, just not at the same rate.

Yes. J. Reuben Clark was a high-ranking Mormon during WWII time...and he was quite an outspoken pacifist who obviously influenced many Mormons of his generation, who in turn passed it down.

I'm not sure how Mormons faired in serving in WWI -- but certainly they were represented.

[Tennessee Nana]

And then there was George Romney (Cousin to Marion Romney, mormon apostle and a member of the first presidency)

He was Gov of Michigan and went with some other governors to Vietnam in 1965 and came back saying he supported the operation there.

Neither he nor any other gov developed any illness and they werte all for the war.

However later, when his son Mitt was about to be drafted George suddenly remembered that the visit caused him a nervous condition and that he had been “brainwashed” ...and as Gov he was in charge of the state draft board.

Due to George Romneys efforts Mormon boys in Michigan and Utah had deferments handed to them like candy...if they got a draft notice they were quickly deferred and sent on a “mission”

Georges own boy, Mitt, was drafted twice and dodged both times with the help of Big Daddy Geotge ...the first time Junior was sent to a cosy assignmernt in Paris for 2 1/2 years, living in a mansion and driving a Citreon...the 2nd time George packed him off to college...

Many mormon boys were “deferred” and dodged the draft during Nam...

Baptist boys...not so much...

No Romney has ever served in the US military...

[Tennessee Nana]

In my SEVEN years in the US military during Nam I never met a mormon...

Years later, in 1877, I met one female mormon, who had just joined and she spent more time prostlysizing amongst the enlisted women that she did bothering about duty...

[trisham]

Years later, in 1877

*****************

Wow. You're older than you look!

[svcw]

1877 ,-)

[Tennessee Nana]

1977

The mormon girl was so spacy she didnt know what century she was in

;)

[svcw]

I totally get that I only sorta remember 1977.

[Colofornian]

1877 ,-)

Well, if by NAM Nana meant the N.A.M. (Northwest American Mainland or Native American Mountainwar), then I suppose it's possible that 'Nana was in that battle of 1877 with the Nez Perce Native Americans in the Pacific NW...http://www.fs.fed.us/npnht/bibliography/video.shtml...

(If that's true, 'Nana, which side were you on? :) )

Oh, and BTW, Nana, if it was a mere typo, you should take the exemplary lead of literally DOZENS of Lds FReeper and non-FReeper "apologists" when they're caught "misspeaking." Your choices are:

(a) Crickets (this is the most popular Lds "handle")

(b) Attack the messenger...(go ahead, go right after our throats :) ... all three of us...svcw, Trisham, and me...be sure you toss out labels; judge our motives for pointing it out; go on the accusatory offensive; change the post subject so that we're no longer talking about 1877...)...this is fave tactic #2...

(c) Go into pure spin mode...Even if you weren't around in 1877, explain philosophically why it's potentially possible that your pre-existent spirit, which per Mormonism was around in 1877, must have briefly visited planet earth in a pre-incarnational visit...

(d) Just "Joey Smith" it...say something less outrageous than what you've said in the past by contrast, thereby making any other claims rather tame by comparison; say something like, "Hey, if some Nephite disciples have been on earth wandering around since the time of Christ, then what's the big deal claiming you were born before the Civil War?"

[Tennessee Nana]

Actually as she handed out the book of mormon she told the other girls to “pray and the mormon god would tell them it was twoo”

She had the vibes of a New Ager...and just as delusional..

I found out she was asking the girls if they had a Christian Bible...

When they said “No” she gave them a bom...

I soonest told them “this is NOT a Bible”

I went over to the Christian Chapel got a wjhole lot of Bibles..and came back and exchanged the REAL Bibles for the book of mormon...

One girl told me that she thought the bom had some strange stuff in it...

LOL

[svcw]

I think Nana should pick #C.

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Decisions, decisions...

:)

[trisham]

Or she might simply laugh in response, recognizing that it was but a gentle joke. What a concept! :)

[MHGinTN]

Actually, she doesn't even look her age ... and I know cause I've dined with her. ... ;^) BTW, Nana, are you coming to the freeper brunch Saturday (5/22) at 11 AM?

[trisham]

Conservative women age well. :)

[svcw]

We certainly do.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.

Who posted this thread then? :-)

[Jean S]

Hey buddy, get a life! Your Mormon bashing is tiresome.