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What About The Rapture?
The Witness ^ | 1980 | Curtis Dickinson

Posted on 06/18/2010 9:45:21 AM PDT by Ken4TA

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Here is a list of the articles in the order they should be read in. When completed (there are 14 of them) one should have a good idea of this conditionalist theology.

1. The Promise to Abraham
2. The Millennial Syndrome
3. Daniel’s Prophecy
4. What About The Rapture?

1 posted on 06/18/2010 9:45:21 AM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA

Is the secret rapture supposed to be like being on double secret probation?


2 posted on 06/18/2010 9:55:12 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Ken4TA

The greatest danger in the teaching of a multi-stage coming is the theory of second chances.

That simply is not taught in scripture.

What IS taught is that when it’s over, it’s over, and we all need to be ready.


3 posted on 06/18/2010 9:56:00 AM PDT by Jedidah
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To: Ken4TA
Here's a good study series of sermons about Dispensations and the Rapture, from Mark Hitchcock at Edmond Faith Bible Church in Oklahoma. Pastor Hitchcock just put up his own blog, too, recently.

A little bit about Mark Hitchcock (because you should get to know this prophecy teacher as he's a prolific writer and a good prophecy teacher and a good teacher in general.


Mark Hitchcock is a leading Bible prophecy expert, prolific author who has penned over 20 books on the end times, senior pastor, and adjunct faculty member of the Dallas Theological Seminary. He has appeared on hundreds of radio programs and in print as well as The History Channel, MSNBC, Fox, The Glenn Beck Show, and CNN. A leading Christian voice on Mayan 2012 prophecy, he is scheduled to appear on an NBC sci-fi special related to 2012 airing fall, 2009.

A former attorney, Mark initially worked for the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals. Following a call to full-time ministry, today he serves as senior pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmond, Oklahoma, just outside of Oklahoma City. He graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1991, where he subsequently earned his doctorate in 2006 and more recently has served as an adjunct faculty member.

Hitchcock has been a contributing editor for the Left Behind Prophecy Club for many years. His new book 2012, the Bible, and the End of the World (Harvest House Publishers) will be released September 15, 2009. He has also recently released Cashless (July 1, 2009, also published by Harvest House), showing how today’s headlines foreshadow a new and vastly different economic future—a one-world economy that is consistent with Bible prophecy in Revelation 13. Some of his other titles include: The Late Great United States: What Bible Prophecy Reveals about America’s Last Days; Armageddon, Oil, and Terror; Iran the Coming Crisis: Radical Islam, Oil and the Nuclear Threat; The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse; What On Earth is Going On?; Is America in Bible Prophecy?; The Coming Islamic Invasion of Israel; Is the Antichrist Alive Today?; Seven Signs of the End Times; and What Jesus Says About Earth’s Final Days.

Hitchcock maintains an active speaking schedule, appearing frequently at prophecy conferences, seminaries, and churches. He and his wife, Cheryl, live in Edmond, Oklahoma with their two sons Justin and Samuel.


Faith Bible Church
600 N. Coltrane
Edmond, Oklahoma 73034
Phone: 405-340-1000
Fax: 405-340-7504

SERMONS

The teaching of Dispensationalim / Pastor Mark Hitchcock and Dr. Charles Ryrie

Wed, Nov 7 2007 -- Dispensationalism part I
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071107_W419-1.mp3

Wed, Nov 14 2007 -- Dispensationalism Part II
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071114_w419-2.mp3

Wed, Nov 28 2007 -- Dispensationalism Part III
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071128_w419-3.mp3

Wed, Dec 5 2007 -- Dispensationalism Part IV
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071205_w419-4.mp3


Left Behind - What's It All About? / Tim LaHaye and Gary Frazier

Sat, May 19 2007 -- Signs of the Coming Christ / Gary Frazier
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-1.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- God's Plan for the Ages / Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-2.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- The Role of Israel in Bible Prophecy / Gary Frazier
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-3.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- The Rapture, 2nd Coming & Glorious Appearing / Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-4.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- Deception and the Last Days / Gary Frazier
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-5a.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- The Merciful God of Prophecy / Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-5b.mp3

Sun, May 20 2007 -- Jesus Is Coming / Dr. Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070520_1560.mp3


The Rapture

Sun, Nov 30 2008 -- The Rapture of the Church / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20081130_1593-9.mp3

Sun, Dec 7 2008 -- The Timing of the Rapture / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20081207_1593-10.mp3


The Pre-Trib Rapture

Sun, Feb 25 2007 -- The Pre-trib Rapture, Pt 2 / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070225_1552-2.mp3

Sun, Mar 11 2007 -- The Pre-trib Rapture, Pt. 3 / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070311_1552-3.mp3

[Part 1 didn't get recorded...]


And..., here's one to educate yourself about End Times Controversies, especially when you are challenged on the Rapture. I would say this one is essential as it's jam packed full of necessary information. Mark Hitchcock did his Doctoral Paper on this subject at Dallas Theological Seminary and wrote a book about it, too.

About Errors and End Times Controversy / Pastor Mark Hitchcock

Wed, Jan 11 2006 -- An Introduction - Part 1
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060111_w3881.mp3

Wed, Jan 18 2006 -- End Times Controversey - Part 2
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060118_w3882.mp3

Wed, Jan 25 2006 -- A Critique of Matthew 24 - Part 3
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060125_w3883.mp3

Wed, Feb 1 2006 -- An Introduction to Interpretation of Revelation - Part 4
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060201_w3884.mp3

Wed, Feb 8 2006 -- Was Nero the Beast of Revelation 13 - Part 5
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060208_w3885.mp3

Wed, Feb 15 2006 -- The Date of Revelation 13 - Part 6
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060215_w3886.mp3

Wed, Feb 22 2006 -- The Date of Revelation 13 - Part 7
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060222_w3887.mp3

Wed, Mar 1 2006 -- Questions & Answers - Part 8
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060301_w3888.mp3


Faith Bible Church Teaching

Holy Scriptures
We teach that the Bible is the Word of God, supernaturally inspired so that it is inerrant in the original manuscripts and has been preserved by God, so that it is the divinely authoritative standard for every age and every life.

The Godhead
We teach that there is one God eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient manifesting Himself in three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in nature, equal in attributes, essence, power and glory.

Jesus Christ
We teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is God incarnate, very God and very man, that He was begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and offered Himself on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice, suffering the full penalty for sinners. He was raised bodily on the third day and ascended to the right hand of the Father, there to intercede for us as our advocate and High Priest.

Man
We teach that man, as a consequence of Adam's sin, is subject to the wrath of God, justly condemned in His sight, wholly unable to save himself. Although man was originally created in the image of God, apart from God's salvation through Christ man is eternally lost.

Salvation
We teach that salvation is wholly by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and entirely apart from any ordinance, ritual, human merit or works. Salvation is the free gift of God and once it is received it cannot by any means be lost. While sin may interrupt the joy of a believers fellowship with God and bring the loving discipline of the Father, the true believer is eternally secure.

Spiritual Gifts
We teach that Christ gives to each believer, at conversion, by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, some gift or gifts to equip him to serve the Lord and edify other believers.

The Church
We teach that the universal Church consists of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ from Pentecost to the Rapture. Each local assembly or church should be a miniature of the universal Church, expressing the great truths of the latter. The local assembly consists of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ who meet regularly for teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer and evangelism.

Ordinances
We teach that there are two Christian ordinances: water baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the testimony of a believer showing forth in solemn and beautiful emblem his faith in the crucified, buried and risen Savior, and his union and identification with Him in death to sin and resurrection to a new life. We teach that the Lord's Supper serves as a commemoration and proclamation of Jesus' death until He comes.

Last Things
We teach the following future events: the personal, imminent coming of the Lord Jesus to rapture the Church, the tribulation period, the second coming of Christ, the millennial reign of Christ, the judgment of the lost, and the eternal state.


And here is the Faith Bible Church page with all the sermons on it.

4 posted on 06/18/2010 9:57:38 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Jedidah
The greatest danger in the teaching of a multi-stage coming is the theory of second chances.
That simply is not taught in scripture.
What IS taught is that when it’s over, it’s over, and we all need to be ready.

Exactly! Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all (Greek Literal rendition).

5 posted on 06/18/2010 10:00:01 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
HOAX

MORE

6 posted on 06/18/2010 10:05:26 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (BP was founder of Cap & Trade Lobby and is linked to John Podesta, The Apollo alliance and Obama)
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To: Jedidah

When we started our study of Revelation last year, we decided to begin with no position on the millennialist question, so as to determine from our study which position contained the greater amount of Scriptural evidence. The position posted here is the conclusion we reached. It is the position held by the early church and is called the amillennialist, I believe. (Disclaimer. I won’t be here for the argument that always ensues on religious positions)


7 posted on 06/18/2010 10:08:38 AM PDT by WVNan (The Murmurous, presided over by Nobodaddy.)
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To: Ken4TA

Stick with politics, bro. Theologian your not.
TruthorTraditions.com


8 posted on 06/18/2010 10:14:57 AM PDT by Doulos1 (Bitter Clinger Forever)
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To: WVNan

I don’t argue. My take is that in this marvelously blessed nation, we all have scripture readily available in any language we speak.

That puts the responsibility squarely on each of us to find out what it says and to obey. No need for me to interpret for anyone.

God’s will is not hard to understand for anyone taking the time to study. The Lord kept the important things simple enough for anyone to read and figure out.

But men always try to make it hard, muck it up. Look at what the Pharisees had done to the Law of Moses by the time Jesus came.

Kudos to you for studying with an open mind and willing heart.


9 posted on 06/18/2010 10:16:14 AM PDT by Jedidah
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To: Ken4TA

“Revelation 20 speaks of “the first resurrection.””

Beware of phrases. Every phrase, every jot, every punctuation mark, is there for a reason.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. “

This is the first resurrection - why would this be here? Because there is a second resurrection - not a second and third return, as is pointed out.

Also, the original Greek, if I recall correctly, stating that one is taken and one is left - refers to the GOOD being left behind, and the other being taken into captivity.

Boy it would be nice to know Hebrew and Greek. Waited too long.


10 posted on 06/18/2010 10:17:23 AM PDT by huldah1776
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To: Ken4TA
What about the Rapture?

There will not be one. No one is going to be beamed outta-here. It is false doctrine.

11 posted on 06/18/2010 10:17:32 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
That's gonna leave a mark!
12 posted on 06/18/2010 10:19:27 AM PDT by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: Ken4TA
The tone of this post seems argumentative and thus may not be suitable for a benevolent discussion of believers who are waiting for His Appearing and who are seeking to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Ephesians 4:3. Our views of prophetic events are not dispositive to our redemption and salvation.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit is the Comforter who would guide [us] into all truth...and he will show [us] things to come. John 16:13. One reason for showing us things to come is for the Comforter to do just that - to comfort us. I Thess. 4:18.

If one understands what is coming in the seven-year tribulation, there is great comfort knowing the Jesus has not appointed us to this Wrath of the Lamb (I Thess. 5:9, Rev 6:16, Rev 14:10) and will keep us from “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world, to try everyone that dwell on the earth” (Rev 3:10).

A better understanding of the purpose and meaning of the Day of the Lord is needed here I believe.

13 posted on 06/18/2010 10:30:27 AM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Quix; Joya
Quix ping!


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

14 posted on 06/18/2010 10:31:25 AM PDT by The Comedian (Evil can only succeed if good men don't point at it and laugh.)
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To: blasater1960
Unlike Noah and Lot, we won't be kept from the wrath and judgment of God upon the whole world. Curious because Jesus said that's exactly what is going to happen. Luke 17:26-29; Rev 3:10.

I won't be here and I expect you as a fellow-believer to be with me. However, if you insist on sticking around for the slaughter of almost every person in the world, I don't know if anyone can stop you.

15 posted on 06/18/2010 10:42:22 AM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: huldah1776
Boy it would be nice to know Hebrew and Greek. Waited too long.

I admire your interest. Read this and find out some facts that never seem to surface among those propagating speculations about the "first resurrection" and what the Scriptures seem to tell us in the book of Revelation. I'm sure you will learn something, regardless of objections.

16 posted on 06/18/2010 10:56:34 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Jim 0216
If one understands what is coming in the seven-year tribulation, there is great comfort knowing the Jesus has not appointed us to this Wrath of the Lamb (I Thess. 5:9, Rev 6:16, Rev 14:10) and will keep us from “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world, to try everyone that dwell on the earth” (Rev 3:10).

I would question where one gets this "seven-year tribulation" idea from. It's not to be found in the Bible, but in the speculative suppositions of prophecy "experts" who have become rich with the many books they write.

A better understanding of the purpose and meaning of the Day of the Lord is needed here I believe.

Now that is something I can agree wholeheartely on! What would be even better who be a better understanding of the destiny of man as revealed by the Bible.

17 posted on 06/18/2010 11:02:06 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: WVNan; Jedidah
I encourage you to continue to keep an open heart to the Holy Spirit who will continue to guide you into all truth and show you things to come. John 16:13.

It's always good to hold onto the Lord himself than any non-essential doctrine. My 40+ years as a believer has been an adventure of Gods refining and correcting my thinking and it's always a wonderful thing because, "The truth will set you free." John 8:32.

Just remember that God wants to comfort His people in all this stuff (I Thess. 4:18) and that he does not want us to be afraid (170 verses in the Bible telling us to not be afraid). My personal experience is I used to be terrified of what was coming because of the clear disclosure in the Book of Revelation that almost everyone in the world will be killed during the tribulation. I now know I won’t be here. This comes form much prayer and seeking the Lord (not man) and no agenda through 40+ years of tested study and matching what I believe the Holy Spirit has given me with the like of well-respected teachers like Chuck Missler.

God bless in your continuing to seek Him.

18 posted on 06/18/2010 11:05:29 AM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: blasater1960
Thread title: What about the Rapture?

There will not be one. No one is going to be beamed outta-here. It is false doctrine.

That type of thinking affects many more people that one would believe. In fact, the great majority of people seem to believe what you have just said. IMHO, that a sad commentary.

19 posted on 06/18/2010 11:06:14 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
Is the secret rapture supposed to be like being on double secret probation?

So it seems!

20 posted on 06/18/2010 11:07:06 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Jedidah
The greatest danger in the teaching of a multi-stage coming is the theory of second chances.
That simply is not taught in scripture.
What IS taught is that when it’s over, it’s over, and we all need to be ready.

Again, right on! Amen. Come Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lor Jesus be with all.

21 posted on 06/18/2010 11:09:54 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Star Traveler
Here's a good study series of sermons about Dispensations and the Rapture, from Mark Hitchcock at Edmond Faith Bible Church in Oklahoma. Pastor Hitchcock just put up his own blog, too, recently.

I don't know if it's good or not. But I imagine that all those "rapture" up to into that theology would think it is good. It takes all kinds of theological speculation and sensationalism to make life interesting in this world of ours, doesn't it! I wonder how much money he has made from his many books selling his idea of God's revelation?

22 posted on 06/18/2010 11:17:16 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA; Jim 0216
If one understands what is coming in the seven-year tribulation, there is great comfort knowing the Jesus has not appointed us to this Wrath of the Lamb (I Thess. 5:9, Rev 6:16, Rev 14:10) and will keep us from “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world, to try everyone that dwell on the earth” (Rev 3:10).

There is nothing in any of these (or other) verses that says anything about a pre-trib rapture. I defy anyone to demonstrate this in a reading of the primary source texts. The only way is by a peculiar sort of logic that states , "If A equals B equals C equals D, then D equals A" while, throughout the process, shifting definitions here or there so things will appear to fit and assuming that "if" means the same thing as "since" or "because" without demonstrating it or, even worse, appealing to (misbegotten) authority ("Well, Grant Jeffries or 'a majority of Bible scholars' say so") ignoring the fact that "Bible scholars" is defined in such a way as to guarantee that a majority will already take for granted the issue still in question for which their "authority" is offered as proof.


23 posted on 06/18/2010 11:19:26 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Matchett-PI
HOAX MORE

Excellent! More people should read what you linked to!

However, just the title of those writings will stop anyone "caught up" into the replacement theology camp.

24 posted on 06/18/2010 11:21:56 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
What about RAPture?


25 posted on 06/18/2010 11:25:53 AM PDT by Cronos (Origen(200AD)"The Church received from theApostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants")
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To: Ken4TA
I would question where one gets this "seven-year tribulation" idea from. It's not to be found in the Bible.

Study Daniel carefully and prayerfully, especially Chapter 9. The tribulation is Israel's seventieth week. Not a five-minute job. (You have to back and forth in time and God's Word - I've been at it 40+ years and nobody’s paid me anything – I just asked the Lord (not man) to show me the truth.) Also, a careful and prayerful combing through the Book of Revelation reveals seven years in exact recounting of "days, months, years, and 'times'."

As far as the Day of the Lord, the purpose is revealed in Daniel:

to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9:24

The Book of Revelation unveils the spiritual warfare that begins the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is when God Himself takes charge. Before He comes to rule as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He’s going to clear the decks, so to speak. He will utterly destroy the false Babylonian World System and all that adhere to it in defiance of His Kingdom come.

26 posted on 06/18/2010 11:31:11 AM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Star Traveler

Thank you for posting.


27 posted on 06/18/2010 11:34:09 AM PDT by sauropod (The truth shall make you free but first it will make you miserable.)
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To: WVNan; Jedidah
When we started our study of Revelation last year, we decided to begin with no position on the millennialist question, so as to determine from our study which position contained the greater amount of Scriptural evidence. The position posted here is the conclusion we reached. It is the position held by the early church and is called the amillennialist, I believe.

That's the same thinking I had when I first started my study of the Scriptures - especially end-time revelations in the Bible. Yes, the position the article(s) from Curtis do follow amillennialism closely, but he prefers it to be called a "Resurrectionist" viewpoint.

I have about 300 articles from Curtis on my Website on a variety of issues - not all of them are anywhere near being called controversial issues. Click Here to visit it.

28 posted on 06/18/2010 11:38:31 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: aruanan
OK, well as I've said, after a fair amount of fear and confusion from all the different viewpoints, I wiped the blackboard of my heart and mind clean, came to the Lord (not man), and asked Him for the truth. Jesus told us the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth and show us things to come (John 16:13) and that the truth will set me free (from fear and confusion among other things) (John 8:32). I believe he's done just that with me.

Again, these are not dispositive issues and our hearts need to seek unity among us as brothers and sisters in the bond of peace. These are important things because I think God wants to comfort His people (plus I enjoy the subject if it can be amicably and intelligently discussed – no agreement necessary), but not as sources of division among us.

29 posted on 06/18/2010 11:44:39 AM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Star Traveler
We teach that the universal Church consists of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ from Pentecost to the Rapture.

Well, there's your problem. Lets take a peak at Hebrews 11 and help explain these guys:

It appears that Mark Hitchcock pulled v13 from his loose-leaf Bible. "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off where assured of them..."
"afar off"? Could that possibly be the exact same faith that makes one a member of the True Church, or is it a different faith, one that doesn't require faith in Jesus Christ? If it is the same faith, how possibly can one make the claim that true church only applies to Pentacost onward?

30 posted on 06/18/2010 11:48:10 AM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: aruanan
There is nothing in any of these (or other) verses that says anything about a pre-trib rapture. I defy anyone to demonstrate this in a reading of the primary source texts. The only way is by a peculiar sort of logic that states , "If A equals B equals C equals D, then D equals A" while, throughout the process, shifting definitions here or there so things will appear to fit and assuming that "if" means the same thing as "since" or "because" without demonstrating it or, even worse, appealing to (misbegotten) authority ("Well, Grant Jeffries or 'a majority of Bible scholars' say so") ignoring the fact that "Bible scholars" is defined in such a way as to guarantee that a majority will already take for granted the issue still in question for which their "authority" is offered as proof.

Very good statement! Jesus will not pour out wrath on His people, but only on those who are not His: And I shudder for those people by knowing this.

31 posted on 06/18/2010 11:50:25 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Jim 0216
The Book of Revelation unveils the spiritual warfare that begins the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is when God Himself takes charge. Before He comes to rule as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He’s going to clear the decks, so to speak. He will utterly destroy the false Babylonian World System and all that adhere to it in defiance of His Kingdom come.

Hmmm...While I agree that the 70th week happenings are as you listed them, I don't think there is any "7 year tribulation" to be found there. IMHO, the book of Revelation is sort of a "tower of truth"; an ascending picture of what is going to happen - as one ascends higher and higher towards the top of the tower ones view grows wider and wider over the landscape. When one reaches the top one will see the whole view - chapter 21-22, which completes the picture one sees as one ascends. Does that make any sense?

32 posted on 06/18/2010 12:01:16 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Jim 0216

Thanks for your post Jim0216. I agree w/ everything you stated in your post. I received the gift of faith at 18 and now have 30 years in my walk.

Too bad so many think that the rapture is not possible scripturally and that it somehow divides the kingdom. Think of the harvest as ‘first fruits’ followed by a later completed harvest. The harvest of the multitudes who don’t take the mark of the beast, and re-examine their beliefs vs scripture can be consequently ‘saved’ during the tribulation. I don’t see this as a 2nd chance since they have not yet died.

However, I do think the rapture of the living is the quickest/painfree physical death possible - instantaneously [in the blink of an eye].

I firmly believe their are many ‘good people?’ [see Romans 3:23] who are currently following christian religions, rather than faith, usually involved in good works, who will miss the rapture, yet be spurred on during the 7 year tribulation and find the simple act of faith. Think of it like this - religion is manmade, but faith is a gift from God [free to all who sincerely seek Him].

Far too many complicate the simple and miss the main point - see Romans 10:9-16. When you hear Him knocking don’t neglect to invite Him into your heart!


33 posted on 06/18/2010 12:21:16 PM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: Jim 0216
Our views of prophetic events are not dispositive to our redemption and salvation.

I beg to differ. The evangelical "doctrine" splits the True Church up into several segments kicking Jews out of God's Kingdom. It also fantasizes about a future slaughter of 2/3rds of the Jews.

Evangelicals also pretend that salvation can come about absent the Holy Spirit, since if a person screws up and doesn't use their Free Will to choose salvation before one of our Lord's many speculated returns, then they get a Mulligan, albeit a painful one with physical stress. They can somehow find salvation outside of the manner taught in Scripture (Romans 10:17). How exactly is one going to hear the true Gospel when all of the Saints are in heaven? Is the reprobate and unregenerate able to do so? (Answer: No, see 1 Corinthians 2:14).

The Evangelical teaching also discredits many of the Kingdom Parables, by denying the much abused "Wedding Feast" parable or even the "Ten virgins". In both these cases, according to Scripture, there is only one chance, and ALL others are cast into outer darkness. Under Evangelical revisionism, those passages are no longer true.

Before 1830, there was nothing anywhere similar to the modern Evangelical fiction of "secret raptures" and seven year "wedding feast". That was all made up. A central bit of sabotage was performed on the words "Prophet" and "Prophecy". For thousands of years, a prophet was simply a person called by the LORD. A prophet of the LORD was simply a person who "spoke God's message to the people under the influence of the divine spirit". The Darbyists forever changed that definition to exclusively mean something akin to a fortune teller. IOW, "Prophecy" no longer holds its rich meaning, rather it only means "to speak of future events". Samuel is no longer a Prophet, he is a soothsayer and forerunner of Nostradamus. And we can't have anything really fulfilled in the past because that just isn't exciting enough and we wouldn't be in on the act. Who is going to pay money to be told that they missed the big show by thousands of years? We don't want to read about Woodstock, we want to live it!

This is why Evangelicals pretend 70AD never happened. They completely ignore the passages in Scripture that speak of the whole world being evangelized in Paul's time, or that Israel did experience all the promises made to Abraham. That wouldn't be Prophecy because Prophecy means stuff that will happen later today or tomorrow when I am here to witness it.

What this has turned into is a carnival. You have some "prophecy expert" who somehow can read the tea leaves of the NY Times and WaPo and confidently claim, that unlike the generations of scholars and theologians before him, he has this [divine?] knowledge of who exactly Gog and Magog are. So buy his book, drop some cash at the resource center at the Prophecy Conference near you, and you will be on the inside track to what will happen to the damned Jews (at least 2/3rds of them), reprobates and unregenerate while you party in Heaven for 7 years.

So this Prophecy worship by the Evangelicals is no different than Saul running to the witch in Endor, trying to see if she can conjur up a spirit (re-interpreting various texts in Daniel, Ezekiel and Zecharaiah) to provide some insight on things that are of no use to them as a true Believer in Jesus Christ who ought to have their minds, not set on the latest earthquake or M.E. troop movement, but to the things of God and His present Heavenly Kingdom.

Trust me, I can go on...

34 posted on 06/18/2010 12:24:46 PM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: Jim 0216
OK, well as I've said, after a fair amount of fear and confusion from all the different viewpoints, I wiped the blackboard of my heart and mind clean, came to the Lord (not man), and asked Him for the truth. Jesus told us the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth and show us things to come (John 16:13) and that the truth will set me free (from fear and confusion among other things) (John 8:32). I believe he's done just that with me.

When someone says that God has guided him to an understanding (feeling) of something and that understanding is directly contradicted by unconvoluted scriptural texts, then one either must say that the texts don't mean what they say or that a subjective feeling of certainty is higher in truth value than something open to all for examination.


35 posted on 06/18/2010 12:41:28 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Ken4TA
Very good statement! Jesus will not pour out wrath on His people, but only on those who are not His: And I shudder for those people by knowing this.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Clearly, God has poured out His wrath on His people. Just check out 2 Kings 21:10-15, very vivid description of God's Wrath.

36 posted on 06/18/2010 12:45:18 PM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: Ken4TA
When one reaches the top one will see the whole view - chapter 21-22, which completes the picture one sees as one ascends. Does that make any sense?

Yes, that's probably one way of looking at it. Rick Joyner’s The Quest has a similar theme, very powerful.

However, Jesus tells John that His revelation to John is about a timeline (Rev. 1:19). With care and the Holy Spirit's help, one can add the various "times” throughout the book to two divisions of 3 1/2 years each.

BTW, I wouldn't discount the Daniel's words out of hand here. Study closely what he's talking about in these passages. You have to back in time and in God's Word in Kings and Chronicles to the Babylonian captivity during the reign of Zedekiah, the last recorded king of Judah, and Jeremiah 25:11-12, and then count forward from the "command to restore Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince" (when Jesus first came as Savoir) (Dan 9:25). It has been shown to have been exactly 493 years in actual time or "sixty-nine weeks" in Daniel's prophetic time. So the measure here is one week equals seven years.

What about the seventieth week? Dan 9:27 reveals this last week and the broken covenant and abomination of the world ruler in the midst (halfway through) of the "week" (3 1/2 years). This maps exactly to 2 Thess 2:4 and more precisely to the events after Rev 11: 14 and in Matt 24:15-31 (the second 3 1/2 years - what Jesus called "the end").

37 posted on 06/18/2010 12:54:51 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Ken4TA
"That type of thinking affects many more people that one would believe."

I'm sorry but I believe in speaking the truth. I know it would be nice if we could escape the birth pangs of redemption but that isnt taught in the Tanakh. And the Tanakh is my only guide to truth. (After studying the NT and all apologetic sources for many years).

38 posted on 06/18/2010 12:55:07 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: aruanan
Your arguments contain no evidence - just assertions. What do you have to back up your statements other than more assertions?

I've given you line and verse in God's Word as backup to what I'm saying including Jesus' clear statements in John, which you seem to reject out of hand, that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and will show us things to come.

As I said, agreement isn't necessary as long as the discussion is benevolent and intelligent, but if this devolves into something less, count me out.

39 posted on 06/18/2010 1:05:02 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: BrandtMichaels
Thanks.

This can be a thorny subject, but my weakness is I enjoy it. I think it is meant to be a blessing to people or else God would not have said that the Holy Spirit would show us things to come. It's balancing the enjoyment of the subject, the desire to bless and comfort God's people, while endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (ie. takes God's grace.)

40 posted on 06/18/2010 1:11:24 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: The Theophilus
Trust me, I can go on...

I'm sure you can. Bottom line is its tragic and I think a testimony to spiritual immaturity when divisions and splits come of interpreting future events. The cross of Christ and salvation only by Him through grace are our dispositive doctrines.

Because of this some people and churches avoid the subject altogether. I think that also is a mistake. We need to grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord so we can learn together in the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

41 posted on 06/18/2010 1:17:48 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Jim 0216
I'm sure you can. Bottom line is its tragic and I think a testimony to spiritual immaturity when divisions and splits come of interpreting future events.

Jim 0216, I wasn't the one who split the Church up saying that the Jews are handled differently by God than this re-definition of "the Church". It is the Darby crowd that rejects millennia of orthodoxy and declares by fiat that "the church" doesn't have as its members Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sarah and the pre-Pentacost saints of God.

The body of Christ has been chugging along just fine having our long-time academic contests over the sacraments, soteriology, church government, ecclesiology, and numbers of angels dancing in confined spaces.

What is downright embarassing is having the Evangelicals looking at every earthquake, troop movement and political leader whose name can be creatively enumerated into 666 going on-line and claiming that this regurgitated pagan rite of beseeching the Oracle is somehow Christian, and is absolutely "prophesized in Scripture". So a generation ago, Gog was the Soviet Union, recently it is Iran, once it was considered the UK, now it is alternatively Turkey or Russia, depends on which Oracle you consult.

I truly appreciate and respect Star Traveler identifying this brand of teaching as within the domain of Evangelicalism. As long as Evangelicals recognize and admit that their teaching is way off the ranch in terms of millennia of orthodoxy, then y'all can do what you want.

I was sanctified out of Dispensationalism; the LORD, as promised to His Elect will surely do the same for others within His flock.

42 posted on 06/18/2010 1:39:16 PM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: The Comedian

THX THX.


43 posted on 06/18/2010 2:06:47 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: The Theophilus
I am not sure what you mean by this. Clearly, God has poured out His wrath on His people. Just check out 2 Kings 21:10-15, very vivid description of God's Wrath.

While I haven't the time right now to read 2 Kings, it is Jesus who is reigning right now. He is whom I'm talking about. When Jesus pours out his wrath that will be the end of this world. I shudder thinking of all the unsaved that will come under the wrath to be poured out. Peter's description of what is going to happen is too drastic for most people to believe, but it's going to happen anyhow. See the third chapter of second Peter.

44 posted on 06/18/2010 2:27:19 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Jim 0216
However, Jesus tells John that His revelation to John is about a timeline (Rev. 1:19). With care and the Holy Spirit's help, one can add the various "times” throughout the book to two divisions of 3 1/2 years each.

Hmmm...maybe, maybe not. Jesus told John that what is prophecied in the book was to happen shortly, however, our vision of time certainly isn't God time sense. Thousands of years is as a day, and a day is as thousands of years to God. A question: where in the book would each 3 1/2 years be separated?

then count forward from the "command to restore Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince" (when Jesus first came as Savoir) (Dan 9:25).

Hmmm....where is Messiah called the "prince"? I read it that the after Messiah is "cut off", i.e., crucified, not for himself, but for those whose sins are to be forgiven is one thing; but it is "the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...". That prince is not Jesus, for he was already "cut of" in the first half of the week. The prince came 40 years later to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

What about the seventieth week? Dan 9:27 reveals this last week and the broken covenant and abomination of the world ruler in the midst (halfway through) of the "week" (3 1/2 years). This maps exactly to 2 Thess 2:4 and more precisely to the events after Rev 11: 14 and in Matt 24:15-31 (the second 3 1/2 years - what Jesus called "the end").

Sorry, everything points to Jesus being "cut off" in the middle of the 70th week. Jesus confirmed the covenant for the full 70th week. 3 1/2 years during which he had his ministry, and 3 1/2 years under the ministry of the apostles to the Jews alone. Then Cornelius was converted and the New Covenant was fully in place - ALL who believed and obeyed the Gospel were added to the Kingdom proclaimed in the Gospel. That Kingdom is today being added to as people are converted to Christ from all the nations of the world.

What you say about Dan. 9:27 is chock full of esegesis, not exegesis. It's reading many things into it that are not said nor indicated. That's my take on what you said; sorry about that. Maybe you could expound on that paragraph to make it clearer?

45 posted on 06/18/2010 2:53:04 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: blasater1960
I'm sorry but I believe in speaking the truth. I know it would be nice if we could escape the birth pangs of redemption but that isnt taught in the Tanakh. And the Tanakh is my only guide to truth. (After studying the NT and all apologetic sources for many years).

Please expound on the above and make it more explanitory. That would be a great help to many people IMHO.

46 posted on 06/18/2010 2:55:25 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: The Theophilus

Well God bless you on your journey with Him.


47 posted on 06/18/2010 3:19:23 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Ken4TA
Well, start with And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Daniel 9:26a. As you said, this is Jesus crucified that comes at the end of sixty-nine weeks. Up to this point, only sixty-nine weeks are accounted for and the commensurate 493 years is historically accurate. (Again, this is how we know Daniel’s prophetic time: one week prophetic time equals seven actual years.)

What about the seventieth week (the last seven years)?

Start with the last part of Dan9:26(b), and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. As you point out this prince is not Jesus but the one who creates “desolations”, as Jesus referred to in Matt 24:15 (the “abomination of desolation”).

Now it starts to get precise: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: Dan 9:27a. I believe (and other scripture points to this) that this “prince” will make a “covenant” (non-aggression treaty) with Israel not unlike what Hitler did with England and Russia while he amassed the power he needed to eventually double cross and attack them.

Now the 3 ½ year split: and in the midst of the week (3 ½ years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:27b. This “prince” (the same world ruler as that in Daniel 11:21-45) will after 3 ½ years set up “the abomination of desolation” (Matt 24:15 & Dan 11:31). Also referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:4: Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. This is “the beast” in Revelation.

Now I’ll ask you to do something:

1st 3 ½ years: read and see if you can’t map Matt 24:4-14 with Rev 6:1-14:16. Both begin with man’s deception (Jesus’ warning in Matt. and the false Messiah on the white horse in Rev. (interestingly many think this is Jesus but Jesus carries a sword not a bow)) and end with the gospel preached to all nations (Rev 14:6).

2nd 3 ½ years: read and see if you can’t map Matt 24:15-31 with Rev 11:14-19:21. Both begin with the world ruler tearing off his mask revealing himself to be the abomination of desolation in Matt. and Satan’s “beast” in Revelation (third woe and seventh trump) and end with the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory in Matt. and the heavens opening and the appearing of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev 19:11-21).

There is overlap in the verses referenced in Revelation because the masterpiece of the tapestry the Holy Spirit paints here contains parenthetical imagery to give a perspective and background to what’s going on. May the Lord give us understanding to the Word He wrote.

God Bless.

48 posted on 06/18/2010 6:16:28 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Jim 0216
Well, start with And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Daniel 9:26a. As you said, this is Jesus crucified that comes at the end of sixty-nine weeks. Up to this point, only sixty-nine weeks are accounted for and the commensurate 493 years is historically accurate. (Again, this is how we know Daniel’s prophetic time: one week prophetic time equals seven actual years.)

Sorry, but right off that start you are mimicking the dispensational teachings of the Scofield Study Bible and the writings of all the "saints" of the dispensational viewpoint. Jesus is crucified in the midst of the week: that week is the 70th week of the prophecy. There is no "gap" between the 69th and 70th week, regardless of how many and who says so. Their exegesis is terrible, to say the least. BTW, I never said that Jesus was crucified at the end of the 69th week.

What about the seventieth week (the last seven years)? Start with the last part of Dan9:26(b), and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. As you point out this prince is not Jesus but the one who creates “desolations”, as Jesus referred to in Matt 24:15 (the “abomination of desolation”).

Absolutely. Messiah is not the Prince, and besides, if that was so, it would be the "people of the Prince" who would be the destroyers of Jerusalem and the temple; and that would be 40 years after the 70th week! The "abomination of desolation" is Jerusalem surrounded by the armies of Rome under Titus. See Luke 21:20-24, which is Luke's recording of Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:15-25.

Now it starts to get precise: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: Dan 9:27a. I believe (and other scripture points to this) that this “prince” will make a “covenant” (non-aggression treaty) with Israel not unlike what Hitler did with England and Russia while he amassed the power he needed to eventually double cross and attack them.
Now the 3 ½ year split: and in the midst of the week (3 ½ years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:27b. This “prince” (the same world ruler as that in Daniel 11:21-45) will after 3 ½ years set up “the abomination of desolation” (Matt 24:15 & Dan 11:31). Also referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:4: Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. This is “the beast” in Revelation.

Interesting, but IMHO, completely wrong. You are taking what the Messiah accomplished and crediting it to the Prince's people that would come. I will write another post to you with a much better explanation and exegesis of Daniel's 70th week. Give me until tomorrow to do so.

Now I’ll ask you to do something:
1st 3 ½ years: read and see if you can’t map Matt 24:4-14 with Rev 6:1-14:16. Both begin with man’s deception (Jesus’ warning in Matt. and the false Messiah on the white horse in Rev. (interestingly many think this is Jesus but Jesus carries a sword not a bow)) and end with the gospel preached to all nations (Rev 14:6).
2nd 3 ½ years: read and see if you can’t map Matt 24:15-31 with Rev 11:14-19:21. Both begin with the world ruler tearing off his mask revealing himself to be the abomination of desolation in Matt. and Satan’s “beast” in Revelation (third woe and seventh trump) and end with the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory in Matt. and the heavens opening and the appearing of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev 19:11-21).

Sorry, I'll not be able to do what you ask, for it is impossible to do. Look for my post to you tomorrow.

There is overlap in the verses referenced in Revelation because the masterpiece of the tapestry the Holy Spirit paints here contains parenthetical imagery to give a perspective and background to what’s going on. May the Lord give us understanding to the Word He wrote.

Yes, there sure is overlap in all of the book of Revelation. And yes, "May the Lord give us understanding to the words He gave to John to write!" May the spirit of truth prevail for both of us. I really enjoyed your explanation, for it gave me a good insight into your thoughts on this issue. Watch for my post to you tomorrow, sometime during the day. It will take a little bit of time to write it, and I hope you will at the minimum consider what I'm going to say. God bless you in your study of His word in the Scriptures.

49 posted on 06/18/2010 7:43:04 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
Nice strawman here, the most illustrative yet. Replacement theologians call it the "secret rapture" (none of us pre-trib rapturists call it that) and then use scripture to show there is nothing secret about it ... well duh; vapid analysis at best, dishonesty at worst.

The first article (The Promise to Abraham) is the perfect illustration of reading the NT back into the Old. Curtis cant go 1 paragraph without bringing some NT thought into a very straightforward promise to Abraham.

Lets explore the first few sentences from that article ...

God made a promise to Abraham: “In thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Gen.12:3). Later he repeated the promise, “because you have obeyed my voice” (Gen. 22:18). What of this promise? Was it fulfilled? Or is it yet to be realized in some material sense? Gross confusion prevails. The tragic result is that Christians look for a fulfillment which will not come, because they look for the wrong kind of promise. People keep getting this original promise to Abraham mixed up with the Law given to Moses and with the land of Canaan in which the Israelites established a nation.

The covenant to Abraham is separate from the Mosaic covenant, no one is getting the two mixed up, except perhaps Curtis.

But the promise to Abraham had nothing to do with the law nor with national Israel. Paul explained, “For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of Faith” (Rom. 4:13). Three things are revealed here: 1) That the promise has nothing to do with the law, 2) That it does have to do with inheriting the world, and not a mere fraction of it, and 3) The it is through faith, and not through racial descent. Jesus said that Abraham “rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad” (John 8:56, cf. 8:44). Obviously Abraham understood that the promise that he was to be the father of many nations and that all families should be blessed through him was a promise concerning Christ and the salvation he would purchase for believers.

Again, notice how to the non-dispensationist, the interpretation of the OT text must be injected with the New Testament understanding of that text. Not only that, but Curtis has also missed the entire point of what Paul was saying in Romans, i.e., justification by faith alone. He just keys on the word "law," finds a NT passage that contains the word "law," and tries to harmonize the two passages.

The second highlighted section of Curtis' argument highlights what happens when you read the NT back into the Old ... you begin to insert ideas that are foreign to the text. There is nothing in the text of Genesis 12 or 17 that suggests that Abraham understood the covenant that God made with him as anything but a promise that he would be the father of a great nation and that nation would possess certain boundaries. Where in the text of Genesis 12 or 17 does it even remotely suggest that Abraham forsaw and understood that the covenant he made with God was really the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31?

My patience has run out reading this stuff. Perhaps we should just rejoice that our names are written in heaven.

50 posted on 06/18/2010 7:52:52 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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