How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates? [Mormon - Open]

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Bill McKeever

[Colofornian]

Bill's also got a 4:46 clip at the link of him speaking on this matter.

From the article: …the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) have attempted to come to Smith's rescue. In a bulletin cover (number F-15) they provide an explanation for this anomaly. Entitled "Where the Gold Plates Gold?" it theorized that the plates were not made of pure gold at all. Rather, they theorize, that they were composed of an alloy called tumbaga. This Central American alloy, the article states, is made up of 8K gold and copper. In other words, the plates would have been primarily composed of 66% copper and only 33% gold. The article debunks the notion that the plates could have been made of pure gold since "pure gold would be too soft to make useful plates." However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold." This argument also fails to take into account a photograph in earlier editions of the Book of Mormon that showed a "gold tablet found in Persia in 1961, dating to the time of Darius II (Fourth century B.C.), covered with cuneiform engravings." The caption went on to say, "This tablet is about the size of the gold plates of the Book of Mormon." In his book entitled An Approach to the Book of Mormon, Dr. Hugh Nibley also mentioned this parallel as evidence to the fact that Smith had plates of gold. If the plates deposited by Moroni were really an alloy made primarily of copper, why go to such lengths?

Well, this addresses a few of the arguments in a recent Mormon Times article by Michael De Groote entitled, ”How gold were the golden plates?” (July 7, 2010) From that July 7 Mormon Times:

Well this answers yet another claim from the Mormon Times: From July 7 Mormon Times: But the plates were not likely made of pure gold. The Book of Mormon merely says they were made of "ore" 1 Nephi 19:1. (See also Mormon 8:5.)… As it turns out, ancient Americans used an alloy of gold and copper — the two colored metals. The Spaniards called this metal alloy "tumbaga." Properly made, a plate of this alloy would have the right properties for engraving and would also look like ordinary gold. But it would also weigh less. Source link: How gold were the golden plates?

[humblegunner]

Well, this is easily resolved.

Let’s just have look at those plates and weigh them and....

Oh.

Never mind.

[SkyDancer]

I remember reading books and seeing prints/paintings of the BOM gold plates and the book was the size of a car battery ... that much gold would weigh in the area of 800 pounds (a regular brick is 6"x3"x2" and has 36 cubic inches of volume) and would weigh in around 400 Troy ounces... that is 27.4 pounds.

The story went that JSjr picked this thing up and ran hill and dale jumping over logs and stuff with this gold book slung over his shoulder .....

Yup

[Colofornian]

From the article: After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed…” (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, Lucy Smith, pp.107-108). … Despite the effort from FARMS to change LDS history, it appears that the tumbaga theory is not being taken too seriously. As recently as May 15, 1999, the LDS Church News ran an article entitled "Hands-on opportunity." Speaking of Joseph Smith, it read, "He had also been instructed by an angel, Moroni, who had met with him each year for four years. On his last visit, he was entrusted with plates of solid gold, which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit." Keep this in mind the next time you stop at a hardware store. Pick up a bag of cement, tuck it under your arm, and imagine yourself carrying it for a distance of three miles running as fast as you can at least part of the way. For added effect you could jump over a display or two.

So, even the LDS Church News claimed in the link imbedded in the article -- you can also click here: article -- that these plates were “solid gold” in 1999.

Yet we still have the Mormon Times both trying to reduce the weight of these gold plates (From the July 7 Mormon Times article: That gives us about 100 pounds. Not impossible to move around, but still pretty heavy. Source link: How gold were the golden plates? )...
...as well ignore that Smith claimed he ran three miles ”at top speed” carrying them!

[Colofornian]

From the article: William Smith, Joseph's brother, who was quoted in the Saints Herald (31, 1884, p. 644) as stating that the plates were a mixture of gold and copper. One can only imagine how William arrived at such a conclusion since there is no evidence to suggest that the plates were ever analyzed. Making William's statement even less credible is the fact that he admitted to having never seen the plates. He claimed, "I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment" (A New Witness for Christ in America 2:417).

Indeed, how would Smith know of the mixture? He never analyzed it! In fact, he didn’t even see them! Yet the July 7 Mormon Times article still claims: William Smith said "about sixty pounds." William Smith also said the plates were "a mixture of gold and copper" — the precise alloy that Putnam found was used by ancient Americans. Source link: How gold were the golden plates?

[lefty-lie-spy]

ROFLMAO. You can’t be serious. What’s that definition of insanity that Rush always uses....?

[Colofornian]

From the article: This argument becomes tenuous given the soft nature of gold. Plates of gold stacked in the manner described by Smith would easily flatten out, thus displacing any arbitrary "air space" suggested by LDS apologists.

Well, this answers yet another claim from the Mormon Times: From July 7 Mormon Times: The individual plates were not perfectly shaped. "The unevenness left by the hammering and air spaces between the separate plates would reduce the weight to probably less than 50 percent of the solid block," Putnam wrote. That gives us about 100 pounds. Not impossible to move around, but still pretty heavy. Source link: How gold were the golden plates

[Colofornian]

I remember reading books and seeing prints/paintings of the BOM gold plates and the book was the size of a car battery ... that much gold would weigh in the area of 800 pounds (a regular brick is 6"x3"x2" and has 36 cubic inches of volume) and would weigh in around 400 Troy ounces... that is 27.4 pounds. The story went that JSjr picked this thing up and ran hill and dale jumping over logs and stuff with this gold book slung over his shoulder ...

And not just run, but at TOP SPEED per the History of the Church account: Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed...

...And continued RUNNING for three miles hefting these solid gold plates around...

[T Minus Four]

When you take into consideration that the plates were engraved in space-saving reformed Egyptian, because, as Moroni wrote, "if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew

Oh, it's all so clear now.

[calex59]

So, enlighten those of use unfamiliar with these plates. What happened to them? Apparently they are not available for inspection.

[samtheman]

Maybe the plates were pure gold and Smith didn’t really run at all, but just lugged them the three miles, taking many breaks along the way and fantasizing a story of running for his life which he told when he made it home.

Whatever the truth of the matter is, Smith was surely lying about something.

It couldn’t be the plates themselves, because that would mean that 8 other people would also have had to lie about seeing them. And we all know that it’s impossible to put together a pack of 8 liars. Liars just aren’t that easy to find.

[T Minus Four]

I wonder why God didn’t think of this when He wrote the law on tablets of stone. If only He had thought of using solid gold plates using space-saving reformed Egyptian. If nothing else, it would have saved Moses a second trip.

[James C. Bennett]

When the gold plates themselves were a “miracle”, why not the rest of the things that’s got to do with it - such as one man lifting all of it, and running and jumping?

There is no end to the stupidity induced by such notions. If you can believe one absurdity, there is not reason why you can’t, another. This needn’t necessarily apply to Mormonism alone.

[colorcountry]

A typical car battery weighs 40 lbs.

Now imagine you live three miles from the auto parts store, so you tuck this golden-plates-sized battery under your arm and run for three miles though the woods before the store closes so you can get a replacement.

How many could make it?

Now increase the weight by triple (for golden colored plates made of copper/gold alloy). Not a man on earth would make it.

[svcw]

Thinking about these gold plates, I wonder why a poor uneducated budding con man didn’t just melt them down and sell the gold. Maybe that’s why they can’t be found.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“It couldn’t be the plates themselves, because that would mean that 8 other people would also have had to lie about seeing them. And we all know that it’s impossible to put together a pack of 8 liars. Liars just aren’t that easy to find.”

Surely you wrote that tongue-in-cheek!

The 8 “witnesses” were anything but men of character...

I’ll take it as humor :-)

[Ditter]

Yeah, it is pretty far fetched, but if you have been taught this from childhood.......... for me it is a tough sell.

[pennyfarmer]

Here is where your facts are wrong.

Liars just aren’t that easy to find.

We seem to have them crawling out of the woodwork over there in DC.

[samtheman]

You are correct. I was attempting to make my post drip with sarcasm. I guess I failed, at least for pennyfarmer.

[SkyDancer]

And really nobody saw the plates with their own eyes ... they perceived they saw them with an inner vision .... sorta like the Demon-rats ‘deemed’ the budget to pass ......