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Evangelical Exodus [Michael Voris video]
You Tube / Real Catholic TV ^ | 8-21-10 | Michael Voris

Posted on 08/21/2010 9:46:08 AM PDT by mlizzy

Catholics aren't the only ones seeing the youth desert them. But Catholics are the only ones who can reverse the process.

(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; convert; evangelicals; freformed; generationchurch; generationy; rctv; trends; voris; vortex
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The Perils of 'Wannabe Cool' Christianity
1 posted on 08/21/2010 9:46:10 AM PDT by mlizzy
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To: mlizzy
Interesting. I believe he is right, that the induction of an emotional experience as an end in itself is a dead end. The over-valuing of "feelings" is the abiding headache of the age.
2 posted on 08/21/2010 10:03:48 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: mlizzy

In my late teens and early 20’s, many of my friends, including myself split from the Catholic Church.

20 years later , most have returned.

I loathe/strongly disagree with much of the Roman Catholic leadership over their Social Justice themes and the Churches slow drift into Humanistic principles, but NOW, I refuse to leave. Many of my friends have stated similar reasons.

The Church needs to stop trying to be MTV cool and get back to the basics.


3 posted on 08/21/2010 10:20:06 AM PDT by Le Chien Rouge
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To: mlizzy
I hesitate to call Michael Vorris a complete idiot, but he comes pretty close.

He sounds like a Suuni Muslim putting down a Shiite, or vice versa.

He's so steeped in his Catholic mumbo-jumbo that he actually thinks he knows something about Evangelical churches...which he does not.

Proof of how blind he is is the fact that he seems to think his put downs of those who don't want the Word of God buried in a lot of liturgy and intermediaries actually makes his religion appealing.

But then, Islam is appealing to some Westerners who need structure and want the burden of thinking for themselves or having a personal relationship with God removed from them, too.

Maybe Michael can beat the local Imam to some of those lost souls and lock them into a lifelong contract.

4 posted on 08/21/2010 10:22:36 AM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: mlizzy

As millions of Catholics convert to Evangelical and become pro-life conservatives instead of pro-abortion liberal Catholics, this guy will have to make more of his incredibly bigoted and mocking, and false, propaganda videos. It makes you wonder which side this guy plays for.

As conservatives, all of us have an interest in this guy’s anti-Evangelical bigotry regardless of which church we attend, since they are the most conservative, most pro-life group in America. This is especially important in the face of the Kennedy migration from Catholic Mexico.

From THE HISTORY NEWS NETWORK;
“What are the political party preferences of Catholic and Protestant renewalists? In general the Pew study points out that “Latino evangelicals are twice as likely to be Republicans as Latino Catholics.” Another Pew study that examined the 2004 presidential elections notes that “Republican gains have been greatest among Protestant Hispanics especially those who consider themselves evangelical Christians.”3 Interestingly, Latino Catholic conservatives, a group which includes the large portion of Catholic Charismatics, favor the Democratic party. In other words, conservative ideology does not automatically translate into support for the Republican Party. With regard to by far the largest group of Latin American immigrants, Mexicans, Democrats enjoy a sizeable advantage among Mexican Catholics (49% vs. 14%). “However, among Mexican evangelicals the partisan split goes the other way (47% for Republicans and 24% for Democrats).””

Snip

“Latino Catholics still outnumber Latino Protestants to a large extent, and these Latino Catholics prefer by and large the Democratic Party over the GOP. The activism of the Catholic Church in fostering a pro-immigrant policy reform, more or less directly supports the voting base of the Democratic Party. This is because of the close connection of the Catholic Church with other pro-immigrant network organizations used to mobilize Latinos politically. Pro-immigrant networks turned their efforts into large campaigns of citizenship and voter registration among Latinos, often using the infrastructure of Catholic parishes. These new citizens and registered voters are much more likely to vote for the Democratic Party, instead of voting Republican, because of the large percentage of Latino foreign-born Catholics.

In the long run, however, the Republican Party may benefit from the conversion of Catholic Hispanics to Protestantism. This would then in turn transform the former historic ethnic-religious advantage of the Democratic Party among Latino Catholics. Interestingly, this polarization was already visible during the 2004 presidential campaign.”


5 posted on 08/21/2010 10:29:17 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: mlizzy

I think it’s pretty silly to say that Catholicism can grow and Evangelical churches cannot. Of the two groups, Catholicism has the far greater problem. There are more “cafeteria Catholics” than Evangelicals that don’t really believe in their faith.


6 posted on 08/21/2010 10:29:17 AM PDT by DesScorp
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To: Le Chien Rouge

Guys like you can lead a more confrontational, and educational path within the church, a slight change in the way that a church message is delivered, or emphasised, or connected to political issues can change the average good Catholic, into an average good Catholic that sees the horror of voting Democrat.


7 posted on 08/21/2010 10:36:12 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American

Your comments seem irrational.


8 posted on 08/21/2010 10:37:18 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998
"Your comments seem irrational."

And your comment leads me to assume you're Catholic.

9 posted on 08/21/2010 10:48:16 AM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American

My tag line should be enough to discover that. And your comments still seem irrational. Do you have any actual rational criticisms of Voris’ comments?


10 posted on 08/21/2010 10:53:13 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998
Sorry, I didn't read your "tagline".

I already stated my criticisms. But you can't understand them, and I'm NOT going to drone them in Latin for you so you can still not understand them but pretend you do the way you do at mass.

11 posted on 08/21/2010 10:56:38 AM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American

I said “rational” criticisms. I see your rant. What I was asking you for is “rational” criticisms. Please make an argument of some kind. Are you capable of doing that?

By the way, I attend the Latin Mass, and have no problem understanding the Latin text. If you are not educated enough to understand a second language, don’t assume we are all as equally lacking in that area.


12 posted on 08/21/2010 11:18:23 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: mlizzy

The left in the world truly hate the Church because the left does not like any barrier to their madness. We need to be purged of any priest who is guilty of gross sin or of spreading the destructive humanistic marxism which has infected the minds of many students at university.


13 posted on 08/21/2010 11:31:56 AM PDT by gunsofaugust (Ignore the bishops who choose to ignore the laws that interfere with their leftist political goals.)
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To: vladimir998
Yada, yada, yada.

In case you're not aware of it, this thread was NOT one of the closed ones where your poor little sensitivities aren't allowed to be hurt by alternative perspectives...even if they offend you so greatly as to be incomprehensible to you.

It is open to those of us who, praise God, have escaped the confines of the Catholic Church.

If I might assume that you in fact have a somewhat functional brain, albeit having admitted to relinquishing your free will, your defensive reaction to my "rant" does little more than demonstrate the fragility of your position.

I spent far too much time in my life among your sort, so forgive me for ignoring any additional attacks you may feel the need to make.

With the exception of weddings and funerals, I will not darken the doors of a Catholic church for the remainder of my life. Thank you and Mr Vortex for re-affirming the soundness of that decision.

14 posted on 08/21/2010 11:39:13 AM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: mlizzy
YHvH and His Salvation don't want rock concerts nor magic shows about matzoh and Passover wine.

YHvH wants us to worship Him by lifting up our voices in praise.

6 For I desire goodness, not sacrifice; Obedience to God, rather than burnt offerings.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

15 posted on 08/21/2010 11:41:42 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: DesScorp
Let's at least get together for the job of defeating liberalism. We will never all agree on all things, though they are of greatest importance. Yet we should put those things aside -though we not forget their importance- in their own compartment while we cut out the cancer of liberalism which has to be confronted immediately. Liberals are destroying this nation's heritage for that is their admitted goal which they denied for decades.

I will agree with my business competitor as we work together for the defeat of cancer of liberalism though he be a staunch Protestant.

16 posted on 08/21/2010 11:45:07 AM PDT by gunsofaugust (Ignore the bishops who choose to ignore the laws that interfere with their leftist political goals.)
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
That is your choice and I thank God for your freedom to make it in a country such as ours.

Let's agree however that the ever growing influence of liberalism and the celebration of wickedness is shaping the minds of children to wink at sin and leave their faith.

Let's all vote Obama and all Democrats out of office before it is too late and we do not have long.

17 posted on 08/21/2010 11:56:52 AM PDT by gunsofaugust (Ignore the bishops who choose to ignore the laws that interfere with their leftist political goals.)
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To: hinckley buzzard
I agree with you. We've been to a number of "feelings" Evangelical-type services, and they are filled with beautiful singing, nice artwork, and captivating sermons. But even if we as Catholics have a lackluster homily to sit through, afterwards the consecration awaits us, and we go home nourished with the Real Body of Christ, something they can't have even if they sing until dawn ...

That being said, however, I would not have embraced the Catholic Church so fervently if I didn't attend daily Mass. I don't know how Catholics become strong in their faith without it ...
18 posted on 08/21/2010 12:02:15 PM PDT by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: gunsofaugust
Let's agree however that the ever growing influence of liberalism and the celebration of wickedness is shaping the minds of children to wink at sin and leave their faith. Let's all vote Obama and all Democrats out of office before it is too late and we do not have long.
Couldn't agree with you more. We need to buckle down and work together.
19 posted on 08/21/2010 12:04:54 PM PDT by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American

You wrote:

“Yada, yada, yada.”

Well, I guess that’s the closest you’re ever going to come to making an intelligent argument.

“In case you’re not aware of it, this thread was NOT one of the closed ones where your poor little sensitivities aren’t allowed to be hurt by alternative perspectives...even if they offend you so greatly as to be incomprehensible to you.”

1) I knew it was an open thread and I don’t see why that means you think posting irrationally makes sense.
2) What might offend me is not likely to be incomprehensible to me.
3) Your comments did not offend me.

Care to try again? You’re not doing so well thus far.

“It is open to those of us who, praise God, have escaped the confines of the Catholic Church.”

Confines? Where to these confines begin and end? Can you document these confines?

“If I might assume that you in fact have a somewhat functional brain, albeit having admitted to relinquishing your free will, your defensive reaction to my “rant” does little more than demonstrate the fragility of your position.”

Try not to be dishonest. I have never relinquished my free will. I am a Catholic by choice. Do you resort to such false claims when you have no argument? Also, how is asking you to make an argument a “defensive reaction”?

“I spent far too much time in my life among your sort, so forgive me for ignoring any additional attacks you may feel the need to make.”

Attacks? Again, how is asking you to make an argument an “attack”?

“With the exception of weddings and funerals, I will not darken the doors of a Catholic church for the remainder of my life. Thank you and Mr Vortex for re-affirming the soundness of that decision.”

There doesn’t seem to be any soundness to it. Again, it seems irrational. You certainly can’t seem to show any rational basis for it. No surprise there.


20 posted on 08/21/2010 12:06:22 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: mlizzy

“Catholics are the only ones who can reverse the process.”

Bull.

As a kid religion was forced upon me. In my 20’s I left my church with no intention of going back. In my 30’s I returned to Christ. I am not now nor have I ever been a Catholic.

The Catholic Church in my town has about 100 parishioners.

The YOUTH GROUP at my charismatic/Protestant church has 120 to 130 kids ranging in ages from 12 to 24.

The kids run the music/worship program. They run the A/V systems. They run the summer camp. We keep them very involved. I believe that the activities, grounded in faith in Christ keep these kids interested in attending and out of trouble.

I am not and cannot speak of every denomination of Christianity, just what I see in my town and more specifically in my church. Things are looking really good lately.


21 posted on 08/21/2010 12:10:48 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: Grunthor

You wrote:

“The YOUTH GROUP at my charismatic/Protestant church has 120 to 130 kids ranging in ages from 12 to 24.”

Oh, and your town equals the world? Sheesh!


22 posted on 08/21/2010 12:21:05 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Grunthor
The kids run the music/worship program. They run the A/V systems. They run the summer camp. We keep them very involved. I believe that the activities, grounded in faith in Christ keep these kids interested in attending and out of trouble.
We have a small Bible church in our neighborhood, and they draw scores of kids for their summer camp, many not from their church. Our own daughter (we're Catholic) attended for some 5-6 straight summers. The kids and parents were unbelievable. They all worked so hard to make for a wonderful Christian experience.

But should these kids stray and happen upon the many paths of sin that are offered today, it's the Catholic faith that has the Body to save them, the True Body of Christ. Most Christians would come running if they knew Jesus was back in town. That's what the Catholic Church offers through the Most Holy Eucharist (He never left!), and if you quizzed reverts, that would probably be the main reason they gave as to why they came back to the Catholic Church.

Catholics [please] Come Home
23 posted on 08/21/2010 12:53:13 PM PDT by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: mlizzy

I disagree. I don’t begin to believe that the Catholics are the only ones who can turn it around. That expresses a very narrow view of what is actually going on in the evangelical church...very narrow, and a bit biased!


24 posted on 08/21/2010 2:33:40 PM PDT by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: mlizzy
I would like to caution Roman Catholics that they should not lump all Protestants into one, big, monolithic group. What Michael Voris is describing are these non-denominational, pop culture, mega-churches. There is nothing Protestant about them. There are also several forms of Protestantism, such as the conservative and radical forms. The one thing that Protestants and Catholics have in common is that we are losing the youth at an alarming rate.
25 posted on 08/21/2010 7:19:57 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: vladimir998
Ok, Nimrod.

Let me explain something to you in small words so you might understand: Just because you don't understand what I post, does not mean I should feel any obligation (that means requirement) to post something according to your dictates.

No wonder you're at home in the Catholic Church.

Now, IF you've been able to find salvation hidden among the baloney of your beloved religion, I'll see you in eternity.

If not, this is goodbye forever.

26 posted on 08/21/2010 7:38:52 PM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American

You wrote:

“Ok, Nimrod.
Let me explain something to you in small words so you might understand: Just because you don’t understand what I post, does not mean I should feel any obligation (that means requirement) to post something according to your dictates.”

You seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding basic concepts. I never said - nor even implied - that you were under any obligation to post “something according to [my] dictates.” I said you seem unable to make a rational argument.

“No wonder you’re at home in the Catholic Church.”

No wonder you seem unable to make a rational argument.

“Now, IF you’ve been able to find salvation hidden among the baloney of your beloved religion, I’ll see you in eternity.”

Not at the rate you’re going you won’t. There is no baloney in my beloved religion. My religion comes from Christ and the Apostles. People unable to make rational arguments come up with baloney.

“If not, this is goodbye forever.”

I doubt it.


27 posted on 08/21/2010 7:50:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Nosterrex

You wrote:

“There is nothing Protestant about them.”

Except sola scriptura and sola fide.


28 posted on 08/21/2010 7:51:38 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998

Obviously, it’s well past time for you to GET A LIFE.


29 posted on 08/21/2010 7:56:45 PM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: hinckley buzzard
... the induction of an emotional experience as an end in itself is a dead end.

Like, say, the emotional experience people get walking into a majestic Roman Catholic church? Or when they hear a cantor sing in Latin? Or the goosebumpy feeling people get pondering the supposed ancientness of Rome, and supposed unbroken lineage back to Jesus' friend Peter?

In the end, it's not about Roman Catholicism or any other denomination. It's about Christ, our Savior.

30 posted on 08/21/2010 8:04:50 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Le Chien Rouge; Mrs. Don-o

Twenty years ago there was no mention of anything social justice wise.

And I think much of what we read in the media interprets Catholic actions in this way because that’s the broad path that the world is taking.

Mrs. Don-o has a good take on the USCCB — Catholic Bishops in the U. S. and the real Catholics like us. Maybe she will address your issue.


31 posted on 08/21/2010 8:12:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Yes I agree Uri’el,....there was a time when churches were for believers....we came to worship and be taught the things of God to prepare us to “Go out” into the world. But then we began inviting unbelievers to church who were not saved...many saw a good thing to be a part of but were never truly converted. Thus the “world” has infiltrated the church to such a degree that it has the divisions, the corruption and the losses we see happening today.

Catholic, Protestant and mainline churches are all facing divisions within...not one is exempt. It is a full blown attack on the whole body of believers...not any one denomination...but you can bet they will go after where the monies are the largest.

32 posted on 08/21/2010 8:14:23 PM PDT by caww
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American

Obviously it’s well past time for you to GET A CLUE.


33 posted on 08/21/2010 8:15:11 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: mlizzy
Magazine: Growing Trend--Evangelicals ‘Crossing the Tiber’ to Catholicism
34 posted on 08/21/2010 8:17:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: caww

“Catholic, Protestant and mainline churches are all facing divisions within...not one is exempt. It is a full blown attack on the whole body of believers...not any one denomination...but you can bet they will go after where the monies are the largest.”

Well said. We need to support and give each other strength. We’re in a battle. I see some posters here posting revisionist untruths about the Catholic Church that the left and Islam use to weaken us as a Body.


35 posted on 08/22/2010 1:30:48 AM PDT by bronxville
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To: Theo
The problem with the push for emotional experiences is the counterfeits, and in some cases the demonic, cannot be distinguished by those unfamiliar with Gods word. Further people then base what is true on their experiences rather than on Christ.

An example are those “Spiritual” experiences with ‘Holy Spirit Laughter and Drunkenness”...and the uncontrollable head-shaking ad twisting which has infiltrated churches.....this “display” is the same out of control experiences Hindus experience thru Kundalini..or the touch from a Hindu Priest....thrashing about etc....it's an impostor/counterfeit holy spirit...not from God.

36 posted on 08/22/2010 5:05:21 AM PDT by caww
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To: caww

Hm. I haven’t seen the “head-shaking ad twisting which has infiltrated churches” for over a decade. Is that taking place now?

Are you familiar with Jonathan Edwards’ “Treatise on Religious Affections” ( http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/affections.html )? He addressed these unusual emotional expressions ... which were taking place in the 1700s! :-)


37 posted on 08/22/2010 6:24:28 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Salvation
The, um, the Tiber is a river in Rome, right? Ah, Rome. May people not cross the Tiber to Rome, but through the cross come to Christ.

Always preaching Rome, you are, at the expense of exalting Christ.

38 posted on 08/22/2010 6:33:01 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo

Yes..it continues in the churches today....apparently still infilitrating the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches but also some of the independant churches. Several who promote this are the TV Evangelists and those who draw the masses at various “revival” meetings.

My point is there are many counterfeits and people get ‘caught up” in the emotional experiences...which are for the most part what is happening to them personally...so the focus is off Christ and onto the persons and what they are experiencing. This makes their faith based on themselves and what they perceive as a physical manifestation of Gods Spirit when in fact how do they know it’s not a counterfeit?


39 posted on 08/22/2010 6:53:10 AM PDT by caww
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To: vladimir998
I would to God that these groups did hold to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Most of them are Sola Mulla and Sola Mea.
40 posted on 08/22/2010 1:53:22 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: mlizzy

“it’s the Catholic faith that has the Body to save them, the True Body of Christ.”

I disagree strongly but respectfully.


41 posted on 08/22/2010 3:00:22 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: Grunthor
I disagree strongly but respectfully.
Thank you for being respectful! :)
42 posted on 08/22/2010 3:05:00 PM PDT by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: vladimir998

“The YOUTH GROUP at my charismatic/Protestant church has 120 to 130 kids ranging in ages from 12 to 24.”

Oh, and your town equals the world? Sheesh!


I can only truly comment on that which I see, or articles written by others. In that vein, I reject the main thrust of the article as written by someone that while eloquent is not remotely unbiased and substitute my own experience, reality or that of which I have personal knowledge.


43 posted on 08/22/2010 3:06:22 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: mlizzy

If there is room for debate in the Body, then let it at least be flavored with His love, right?


44 posted on 08/22/2010 3:08:44 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: Nosterrex
With grace, I would like to also caution you on lumping all non-denominational “mega-churches” in one group. I really don't understand why Christians do this. If you like small, mainstream Protestant churches, that is great. I'm glad you found a place. But, many of us enjoy the enthusiasm, growth, and Bible fundamentals taught at the big churchs. Are there some megachurches that are shallow? Yes. Are they all? no. Moreover, everyone is at different stages in their walk with Christ. Some need the “draw” of a popular mega-church. Some later move on to a smaller church. Others stay for the excitement of seeing new believers come to Christ, and to help train them up.

I know you realized that there are true Christians in megachurches, small mainstream churches, and Catholic Churchs. We need to start remembering that our differences can be strength (the body is made up of different members)and unifying, instead of always dwelling on the differences.

45 posted on 08/22/2010 3:35:29 PM PDT by Adventure gal
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To: vladimir998
By the way, I attend the Latin Mass, and have no problem understanding the Latin text. If you are not educated enough to understand a second language, don’t assume we are all as equally lacking in that area.

First of all, most Catholics do not understand Latin. Period. Don't assume because you do...others do as well. I have numerous Catholic friends and when I speak Latin (I am clergy)...they haven't a clue as to what I am saying.

Second...Michael Voris is pulling a Matthew 7: He's pointing out the speck in his brother's eye...yet ignoring the big ole log in his own eye.

I do agree that there is a lack of substance in the megachurch movement...but I deny his premise. This is not the problem of the megachurch...it is cross denominational and cultural.

I have seen several articles on FR lately about how people are deserting evangelical churches and "coming home" to the Catholic church. What these always fail to point out, of course, is the massive amount of people who are deserting the Catholic churches and either 1) Leaving religion all-together or 2) becoming protestant.

I am a church consultant. I did my Doctoral dissertation on church growth (specifically Anti-Nicene Christianity compared to modern Christianity). Part of my library is a book entitled: "The American Church in Crisis" by David Olsen. The following statistics are taken from his book and the stats he uses are from numerous studies by Barna, Gallup...you name it.

So...for people who keep talking about people leaving the evangelical churches...etc and becoming Catholic...yes...that happens. But the NUMBERS do not show that that is the rule...they show that is the exception. To prove that point (for those who disagree):

% of people leaving one "group" for another "group." This is called switching out. It doesn't count the numbers that "DROP" out...just the numbers that SWITCH.

Evangelicals: 17.5% Switched in...12.7% switched out. A 4.8% addition.

Mainline: 18.3% Switched in...23.6% switched out. A 5.3% loss.

Catholic: 8.4% Switched in...18.7% switched out...A WHOPPING 10.3% loss.

The data are Chrystal clear...the Catholic Church is losing 10% MORE people by them GOING to another mainline or evangelical church...than they are gaining by former mainline or evangelicals coming to them...and if it weren't for illegal immigration...their membership would be in a death spiral like the mainline churches.

Catholic church growth kept pace with population growth in only 6 states. It declined in 44 states (from 2000-2005).Only 4 states saw GROWTH in attendance of worship services. 46 saw DECLINE. That is not a recipe for being able to fix your problem and saying the megachurch can't.

Mainline churches saw NO growth equal population growth. That means UMC, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. These denominations also so a decline in attendance across all 50 states. So...if you are in one of the mainline protestant denoms...your denom is dying. Period. YOur individual church may be great...but the data are clear...your denom is in serious trouble.

Now to the evangelicals...which is the point of this thread...and this is where Voris is clueless. Evangelical churches (SBC, PENT, AOG, Non-Denom, etc) GREW in 28 states...and declined in 22 states. It might be that Voris used his example from a megachurch in one of the declining states...but he left out half the country!

Some of the largest evangelical growth as a % of the population comes from the NE...where there is the largest amount of decline in the RCC and the mainline churches.

So the entire premise of this piece is false. The only reason RCC membership is steady across the country is due strictly to immigration (p. 50). The massive amount of hispanic immigration balanances out the numbers that are leaving the RCC for one reason or the other.

In 2000-17.3 million Catholics attended mass on any given weekend. By 2005...that was 15.7 million.

In 2000...6.1% of the American public attended mass on any weekend...in 2005 that number was 5.3%. That is a 14% DECLINE in just 5 years. So please...someone tell me how a 14% decline is better than the evangelical "PROBLEM" number of 9.1% for both 2000 and 2005?

B/W 2000-2005...the total number of churches b/w the RCC and mainline denoms declined by 2500...while there were 4500 additional evangelical churches.

So...bottom line is everyone has a problem. Yes...I think there is shallowness in the megachurches...but as a church consultant, I go to a lot of churches...and I see shallowness EVERYWHERE I go.

This is the era of Laodicea. Most churches are cold. Bill Hybels recently came out and said he thinks they have made mistakes at Willow Creek. But...this is a mistake being made across denominational lines.

46 posted on 08/22/2010 4:08:36 PM PDT by NELSON111
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To: NELSON111

Very good and interesting post.


47 posted on 08/22/2010 4:33:55 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: NELSON111

You wrote:

“First of all, most Catholics do not understand Latin.”

So what? The Latin Mass is easily learned. Also, missals are easily avaiable. Anyone who wants to learn the Latin Mass can do so. I have a friend - a former Evangelical minister - who converted 18 months ago. He now sings Latin hymns (yes, he knows what the words mean) and he understands the Mass just fine.

“Period. Don’t assume because you do...others do as well.”

I don’t assume anything in this regard - I just see it happen all the time. Anyone who wants to learn the Latin Mass can do so. I have seen many converts learn the Mass in a brief amount of time. If they can do it, anyone can. Many of them, after all, are starting off in a real hole education wise. They were raised as Protestants and went to public schools. Yet, some how, they still learn Latin well enough to understand the Mass, understand their missals, sing in Latin and even homeschool their kids in Latin! It just takes some effort.

“I have numerous Catholic friends and when I speak Latin (I am clergy)...they haven’t a clue as to what I am saying.”

That is probably for one or more of the following reasons:
1) Your pronunciation was bad.
2) They never studied Latin so why would you expect them to know it?
3) They have never attended the Latin Mass on a regular basis.

“I have seen several articles on FR lately about how people are deserting evangelical churches and “coming home” to the Catholic church. What these always fail to point out, of course, is the massive amount of people who are deserting the Catholic churches and either 1) Leaving religion all-together or 2) becoming protestant.”

I don’t believe they fail to point that out. I think they are just writing a different kind of article. The real point is this: most of the articles you’re talking about are about the EDUCATED Evangelicals - many ministers in fact - are becoming Catholics even after decades of being told Catholicism is evil, a work of the devil, unbiblical or some other sort of Protestant rubbish. The fact that common Catholics who were not being well catechezied since the 1960s are leaving the Church only tells us they never knew what they had in the first place. Those Evangelicals coming, however, are discovering - through prayer and study - what those Catholics who left never knew.

“But the NUMBERS do not show that that is the rule...they show that is the exception.”

Again, you’re missing the point. We are losing people who were never devout Christians. We are gaining people who were already devout Christians. Those who left the truth never knew they left it in the first place. Those Protestants discovering the truth are becoming Catholics.

Your statistics are meaningless in this regard. I am most interested in truth and not the actions of people who do not know what that is. Evangelicals are discovering the truth - and becoming Catholic.


48 posted on 08/22/2010 4:41:38 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Grunthor
Very good and interesting post.

Thanks. I just find it funny...and HIGHLY hypocritical to read an article entitled "Evangelical Exodus" by a Catholic.

When 10%+ more people are leaving your denomination than are coming from another denomination does it really make sense to talk about the exodus of a group that has a 5% gain? Especially when that gain is at your expense?

Does it make sense to write an article entitled evangelical exodus when that group is growing in 28 states...and yours is shrinking in 46? Does it make sense to write it when the only thing that is keeping your membership numbers steady are illegals?

Oh...and a point to that (since I work with several inner city "white flight...2nd/3rd generation Hispanic churches)...Hispanics don't stay catholic forever...at least their children don't. The numbers or 2nd/3rd/4th generation Hispanics in the US that leave the Catholic church is large. They, by and large, stay more loyal than whites...but you can't count on them to remain Catholic.

So...the Catholic church needs to write more articles about "How can we fix this" instead of handpicking a few bad examples.

And this is understood by the Clergy in the RCC. I was active in the Emmaeus community and the priests understand the depths of despair they are in. Some of the people on this board need to have their sense of urgency....'cause THEY are worried about the future. I think Voris might ought to go behind closed doors and talk to a few of them.

And for the records...I am Southern Baptist...and we are worried too...at least those I work with in ministry. We realize we could lose an entire generation if we don't get it together quick.

49 posted on 08/22/2010 4:56:31 PM PDT by NELSON111
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To: vladimir998
Your statistics are meaningless in this regard. I am most interested in truth and not the actions of people who do not know what that is. Evangelicals are discovering the truth - and becoming Catholic.

If you really want to sit there and insult me by saying that I don't have the truth...then we really have nothing to talk about.

I will point out simply that if there was truth in what you speak...you would not be losing members in droves. You would not have LOST them in the first place.

Oh...and I do know of people who have become Catholic after being XYZ. I know of a Baptist. He is "an evangelical who is coming..."

But contrary to your assertion that he discovered the truth through prayer...etc...he is coming because his wife is Catholic. He thought it was hard to leave the Baptist church but then he got excited because he could 1) DRINK!!!! and 2) Make it home before kick-off. Those are his words...not mine.

Keep your eyes shut to the problem...that always helps.

50 posted on 08/22/2010 5:04:54 PM PDT by NELSON111
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