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Michael Ash: Ventilators and illuminators in Noah's Ark and Jaredite barges [Mormon, LDS open]
The Mormon Times ^ | 18 Oct 2010 | Michael Ash

Posted on 10/18/2010 10:45:49 AM PDT by T Minus Four

When the Lord told the Jaredites he would lead them to a new land (Ether 2:7), he also instructed them to build eight barges to traverse the waters to their new destination (v. 16).

According to Ether, these barges, which were patterned after Noah's Ark (6:7), were "tight like unto a dish," peaked at both ends and had holes that could be unplugged to allow ventilation (2:17, 20).

The story of Noah, or some equivalent figure, is found in a wide array of ancient non-biblical literature and could easily have been known to the ancient Jaredites. Some of these traditions about the Ark — or "deluge boat" — contain details and oddities not found in the Bible.

Dr. Hugh Nibley has shown that several of these non-biblical details and oddities are also found in the Jaredite account.

Some of these ancient sources, for example, claim that the shape of the deluge boat resembled a crescent moon when viewed from the profile. Like the Jaredite barges, it would have been peaked on both ends. Artwork of actual sea-going vessels from the Tyrians and Sidonians show that some boats really had such a shape.

Although the book of Ether never says that the Jaredite barges had sails, we are told (as noted in a last week's installment) that the barges were driven by furious winds (Ether 6:5-9). While the Bible never mentions that wind was a factor in propelling the Ark, the deluge boat was supposedly sail-less but driven by ferocious winds.

Just as the Jaredite barges were "tight like unto a dish," the deluge boat had a portal that could be shut during the storm flood. The word "ark," in fact, originally meant a "box" — such as a chest or coffin — that was covered with a lid. And just as the barges had ventilation holes, the Ark had not only a door that could be shut but at least one nappashu, which is translated as "air-hole" or "window" but means "breather" or "ventilator" and was not an ordinary window. The Jaredite barges and the deluge boat both took on almost submarine-like natures, often being submerged in violent waves during their voyage.

Concerned about the lack of light in the barges, the brother of Jared asked the Lord for some means of illumination. Glass would break, the Lord replied, and they couldn't light fires, so the Lord turned the problem back over to the brother of Jared. Having complete faith in the Lord's abilities, the brother of Jared climbed a mountain, "did molten out of rock" 16 small transparent stones and asked the Lord to touch the stones so they would shine in their vessels.

While the tale of "shining stones" has elicited the laughs of critics, we find that the story is perfectly at home in ancient lore. According to the ancient Palestine Talmud, for example, the Ark was illuminated with a miraculous light-giving stone. This precious stone supposedly glowed for 12 months inside the Ark and would dim during the day so that Noah knew if it was day or night outside.

Such information was likely unavailable to Joseph Smith. As Dr. Nibley explains, of the four copies of the Palestine Talmud that mention the Ark's shining stones, two appeared 30 years after Joseph had already translated the Book of Mormon. When the Book of Mormon was published, there was not a single translation of the Palestine Talmud available in any modern language.

As noted above, it was the brother of Jared, not the Lord, who suggested the idea of the shining stones. It seems reasonable to surmise that the brother of Jared was familiar with an ancient tradition of Noah and his illuminated stones. One of those ancient sources (unknown in 1830) relates the tradition of a gem that could be produced by subjecting certain stones to intense heat. The resulting gem would be a perfectly transparent crystal which shined as brightly as the sun (see the same elements in Ether 3:2, 4).

The common name for this gem was "Moonfriend," or Jalakanta, which interprets, "that which causes the waters to part." Thus the peculiar power of this shining gem enabled its possessor to pass through the depths of water unharmed.

The Ark was also called a "bright house" or moon-boat, not only "because it was crescent-shaped and wandered through space for 12 months, but also because it was illuminated by a miraculous light." While ancient Babylonian texts tell us that the deluge-boat had a "window" or nappashu, the "window" in Genesis comes from the Hebrew tsohar, which also translates as "shiner" or "illuminator."

The Book of Mormon version, which is a fuller account than any other, contains both ideas — that the barges had a ventilator as well as an illuminator.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Humor; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; christianity; fantasy; flyinginmans; judaism; lds; mormon
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Michael R. Ash is on the management team for FAIR (the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research — FAIRLDS.org) and is the author of "Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony In the Face of Criticism and Doubt" (ShakenFaithSyndrome.com) and "Of Faith and Reason: 80 Evidences Supporting the Prophet Joseph Smith" (OfFaithandReason.com). Michael's column, "Challenging Issues, Keeping the Faith," appears Mondays on MormonTimes.com.
1 posted on 10/18/2010 10:45:58 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: magritte

Unnecessary but allowed vitriol ping


2 posted on 10/18/2010 10:49:22 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...
jaredite barge
3 posted on 10/18/2010 10:54:17 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: T Minus Four
Michael R. Ash is on the management team for FAIR (the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research — FAIRLDS.org)

That explains everything!

4 posted on 10/18/2010 11:03:21 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy
Especially in combination with this:

Dr. Hugh Nibley

‘nuf said...

5 posted on 10/18/2010 11:06:47 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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While the tale of "shining stones" has elicited the laughs of critics, we find that the story is perfectly at home in ancient lore

...along with lepreachans, cyclops [cyclopsez?], goblins, dwarfs, unicorns, spinning straw to gold, magic beans and fairies.

It should start with "Once upon a time..."

6 posted on 10/18/2010 11:12:16 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: T Minus Four; ejonesie22; Godzilla

Glass would break, the lord replied,
______________________________________________

GLASS ???

Hundreds of years before it was invented ???

and the mormon lord could not make a glass that wouldnt break ???


7 posted on 10/18/2010 11:25:08 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

they couldn’t light fires
___________________________________________

Why not ???

EPA would fine them ???

How were Noah and his family able to have fires on their ASrk but Joey Smith kept his ficticious characters freezing and without cooked food

and in the dark without light from oil lamps ???


8 posted on 10/18/2010 11:28:52 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

the brother of Jared was familiar with an ancient tradition of Noah and his illuminated stones. One of those ancient sources (unknown in 1830)
___________________________________________

What illuminated stones ???

And how come Joey Smiths characters back 2,000 years ago knew something that was not known in 1830 ???

Was the knowledge forgotten, lost ???

Still in need of ‘restoring’ ???

If it was an ancient source then why was it unknown in 1830 and yet Joey Smith who was writingt in 1830 seemed to know it ???

DFUH DUH and again I say DUH

Plus if Joey Smith had ever picked up a Bible that was an ancient source also containing the story of Noah and how God told him to build the Ark, he would have found out for hiomself how stupid he really was...


9 posted on 10/18/2010 11:36:21 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

When the Book of Mormon was published, there was not a single translation of the Palestine Talmud available in any modern language.
__________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Did Hugh convenintly forget that Joey Smith was learning Hebrew at one time ???

Or did the mormon god not about to read Hebrew ???

Or is he just admitting that Joey Smith wrote his book of mormon without doing any research or proper sourcing of its contents ???


10 posted on 10/18/2010 11:42:20 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

When the Book of Mormon was published, there was not a single translation of the Palestine Talmud available in any modern language.
__________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Did Hugh convenintly forget that Joey Smith was learning Hebrew at one time ???

Or was the mormon god not able to read Hebrew ???

Or is he just admitting that Joey Smith wrote his book of mormon without doing any research or proper sourcing of its contents ???


11 posted on 10/18/2010 11:43:03 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

it is like a sci-fi novel


12 posted on 10/18/2010 11:47:53 AM PDT by Veritas01 (Veritas)
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To: T Minus Four

so the lord turned the problem back over to the brother of Jared.

it was the brother of Jared, not the lord, who suggested the idea of the shining stones.
___________________________________________

So the mormon lord was helpless and needed the help of mere mortals...

well after all he was just a man himself at one time...

Thats why its best to believe in and worship the LORD Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible...

God always knows how to do things...


13 posted on 10/18/2010 11:49:05 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Veritas01

A bad one...

Stargate it is not...


14 posted on 10/18/2010 11:50:02 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four
"Unnecessary but allowed vitriol ping"

T, you owe me a keyboard....thanks for the ping...this is the first article I've read about Mormon submarines...lots of Mormon mythology tries to tie back into the Torah, although it seems odd that "Jared" would be familiar with the old Talmud stories about Noah's tsohar...fun article...magritte
15 posted on 10/18/2010 11:55:45 AM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: greyfoxx39

Years ago a Mormon member of my National Guard unit (he was nicknamed `Tailgate’ for his one piece holy underwear) kept pushing the equalness of the BoM with the Bible. In one book with a funny name (Alma, Mosiah, Ether, Nephi, I forget) there was constant mention of “the brother of Jared”, just over and over again.

When I asked if this brother of Jared dude had a real name of his own, ol’ Tailgate piped up that the twelve Apostles in Salt Lake City had just received a divine revelation that BoJ’s actual name was.....(drumroll).....

“Moroni Moriancumr”

Anyway, I thought these Nephite cruise arks were also capable of traveling submerged (to avoid storms on the surface, you see).

;^)


16 posted on 10/18/2010 11:58:29 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("O Muslim! My bullets are dipped in pig grease!")
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To: Tennessee Nana
and the mormon lord could not make a glass that wouldnt break ???

Well he is only human...

17 posted on 10/18/2010 12:03:00 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: T Minus Four; Godzilla; All
And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the mannerof barges which ye have hiterto built...And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me. And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish. And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hold and receive air." (Ether 2:16, 18-20)

Hmmm...just a "few" original obvous-as-day design problems...like...
access to air;
lack of light;
steering

Of course, Ash, citing the Book of Mormon, says the light problem was taken care of...the problem is that the Mormon god gives the original design for this thing with his own personal instructions. And then had to hear a complaint from the builders about "hey, what about light?"

These were all things clearly NOT addressed from the get-go; and weren't addressed by the builders as they went along despite the obviousness of these problems. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith & his Book of Mormon presents his god as a forgetful or neglectful designer -- a bumbling, afterthought Mormon god who was fortunate he had a "consultant" like Jared to catch the divine designer's fatal flaws.

(And, as if Jared was some "brilliant" ship planner, material gathered, 8-vessel constructor in the first place. I mean, how could one work on something for months-on-end, & not notice its superb suffocation & dark-as-night internal features? As one Ph.D author asked: Is it sensible that all of these shipbuilders... waited until the end to realize, Oh, wait! We forgot that our animals will need to breathe in here.) Source: Jaredite Ship-Building Technology

BTW, I highly encourage people to go to the above link and look at the 40 questions this author raises...particularly given all the animals that were taken with them.

And I didn't include Ether 2:17, which says all of the sides (including top & bottom) were "tight like a dish" -- meaning like a ball just rolling on the ocean at the total mercy of winds, waves, currents, etc!...and then presents the Mormon god as "solving" the air/light problem by opening up a hole in the bottom of the barge!

So let's summarize the "problems" with this craft that were not addressed in the original divine "ark-"itectural plan:
1. Its overall poor original "God-breathed" design (2:15-19) [Would a god really give such poor, 'can't-help-but-miss' personal instructions for such a fatally-flawed craft from a design perspective?]
2. Its poor original "God-breathed" design still left unaddressed before departing
3. Its poor original light design problem
4. Lack of steering...at total mercy of waves & wind (Ether 2:17)
5. Its designed upside-down ventures (Ether 2:24-25; 6:5-7)
6. Its poor animal-care features and "gameplan" of how to deal with animal poop and animal smells (ventilation issue) and even how much food would be required for such animals. See Jaredite Ship-Building Technology for a complete run-down of questions dealing with this aspect.

18 posted on 10/18/2010 12:12:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: T Minus Four; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Ping to the inmans!


19 posted on 10/18/2010 12:21:14 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: T Minus Four

Does this have anything to do with Obama going on the MythBuster’s show?


20 posted on 10/18/2010 12:29:30 PM PDT by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: All

Undecided readers,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the “quotation” the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no delemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn’t been addressed a hundred times before.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever “issue” they seem to be “revealing” or “exposing”. I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the “ahah” moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there’s nothing new here. It’s all been addressed many times before.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the “issues” brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here’s more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/


21 posted on 10/18/2010 12:51:51 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: All

Undecided readers,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the “quotation” the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no delemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn’t been addressed a hundred times before.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever “issue” they seem to be “revealing” or “exposing”. I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the “ahah” moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there’s nothing new here. It’s all been addressed many times before.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the “issues” brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here’s more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/


22 posted on 10/18/2010 12:53:55 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

Yep, I guess posting these links again and again and again is a “misguided obsession”.

Links for people to find the truth of particular matters.

http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html

http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/

http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php

http://www.exmormon.org/

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/


23 posted on 10/18/2010 12:57:09 PM PDT by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

haha beam me up scotty


24 posted on 10/18/2010 1:22:51 PM PDT by Veritas01 (Veritas)
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To: Paragon Defender

Thanks PD. I was expecting you :-)


25 posted on 10/18/2010 1:24:29 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: magritte

I think they spelled “moonbat” wrong too :-)


26 posted on 10/18/2010 1:25:25 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: SZonian; reaganaut; colorcountry

As rescued folks, had you ever heard this stuff before?


27 posted on 10/18/2010 1:27:10 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: Paragon Defender
In fact, people should start right at the beginning when investigating mormonism.

Here is a lesson plan for the very smallest children's Sunday School. It is STRAIGHT off of the official mormon website, www.lds.org.

28 posted on 10/18/2010 1:38:20 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: T Minus Four

Oh yes, it is pretty common knowledge. Mormons can and do believe in all sorts of fantasy.


29 posted on 10/18/2010 1:49:40 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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To: T Minus Four

In fact, people should start right at the beginning when investigating mormonism.

Here is a lesson plan for the very smallest children’s Sunday School. It is STRAIGHT off of the official mormon website, www.lds.org.


Cool thanks! Sometimes you are so nice. =-)


30 posted on 10/18/2010 2:18:17 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: T Minus Four

Oh yeah, I heard about it and discussed it even as LDS.


31 posted on 10/18/2010 2:36:30 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: T Minus Four

Wow, those are some disturbing lesson titles...


32 posted on 10/18/2010 2:40:18 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: greyfoxx39
Jaredites

I thought those were people that ate at Subway to lose weight?....

33 posted on 10/18/2010 2:50:26 PM PDT by dragonblustar ("... and if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler!" - Greg Gutfeld)
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To: Paragon Defender; reaganaut
The two most interesting to me are "I have a body like Heavenly Father's" and "Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ".

They even have finger puppets the primary teacher can print out so the little ones can act out the vision.

34 posted on 10/18/2010 2:51:58 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: dragonblustar

LOL!


35 posted on 10/18/2010 2:52:44 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: reaganaut

Just like AWANA .....NOT!

36 posted on 10/18/2010 2:54:56 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: T Minus Four

As an adult convert, I had heard some of it after I became a member. Didn’t have much time to really learn or study about it though as I was constantly busy doing my “callings”.

Now that I peruse it in more detail, it’s so fantastic that I seriously doubt I would have converted had I heard this story before or during the lessons.


37 posted on 10/18/2010 2:58:07 PM PDT by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: SZonian

I have lived here in Utah for 15 years and never even suspected this stuff. They sure don’t advertise it.


38 posted on 10/18/2010 3:01:22 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: reaganaut
For those of you that didn't click the link to see the "disturbing" lesson titles, here they are:

Lesson 1: I Am a Child of God
Lesson 2: Heavenly Father Has a Plan for Me
Lesson 3: I Can Pray to Heavenly Father
Lesson 4: Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ Love Me
Lesson 5: Jesus Christ Showed Us How to Love Others
Lesson 6: The Holy Ghost Helps Me
Lesson 7: Jesus Christ Created the World for Me
Lesson 8: Sunday Is a Day to Remember Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ
Lesson 9: I Have a Body like Heavenly Father's
Lesson 10: I Will Take Care of My Body
Lesson 11: I Love My Family
Lesson 12: I Can Pray with My Family
Lesson 13: My Family Can Be Together Forever
Lesson 14: I Will Obey
Lesson 15: I Will Be Thankful
Lesson 16: I Will Say "I'm Sorry"
Lesson 17: I Will Share
Lesson 18: I Will Love Others
Lesson 19: I Can Be Happy
Lesson 20: I Will Be Reverent
Lesson 21: Joseph Smith Saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ
Lesson 22: The Book of Mormon Teaches Me about Jesus Christ
Lesson 23: I Love the Scriptures
Lesson 24: I Will Follow the Prophet
Lesson 25: I Belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Lesson 26: I Will Be Baptized and Confirmed
Lesson 27: The Sacrament Helps Me Think about Jesus Christ
Lesson 28: Heavenly Father Blesses Me through the Priesthood
Lesson 29: Jesus Christ Was Resurrected (Easter)
Lesson 30: Jesus Christ Is the Son of Heavenly Father (Christmas)

Admitedly, #9 and #13 are unique Mormon teachings (at least in today's world), as are #21, 22, and 24. Disturbing? I guess there is a scale of "disturbing" that I don't understand.

Or maybe I am looking at the wrong ones. #17 is kind of disturbing, I guess. Or maybe it was #11. #5?

39 posted on 10/18/2010 3:11:38 PM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: T Minus Four
Ya just gotta LOVE that HOLE in the BOTTOM of the boat, too!


http://packham.n4m.org/ships.htm

40 posted on 10/18/2010 3:26:48 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender
If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern.

Can you direct me to the Department of Redundancy Department?

41 posted on 10/18/2010 3:29:56 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: T Minus Four
Here is a lesson plan for the very smallest children's Sunday School. It is STRAIGHT off of the official mormon website, www.lds.org

_______________________________________________

Sunday Is a Day to Remember Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ ???

Only Sunday ??? and only in remembrance ???

I have a body like heavenly father's

Well right there is further proof that the mormon god "heavenly father" (father divine) is not God of the Christian Bible

"God is Spirit" (the LORD Jesus Christ, John 4:24)

So unless all those mormon primary children are invisible, Houston we have a problem...

42 posted on 10/18/2010 3:30:54 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

LOL. My thoughts exactly.


43 posted on 10/18/2010 4:05:44 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: T. P. Pole; T Minus Four; Tennessee Nana

Let’s see....what did I find disturbing...well, the brainwashing for one...and the heresy for another.

LDS lesson titles followed by Christian comments

Lesson 5: Jesus Christ Showed Us How to Love Others (no, Christ died for our Sins)
Lesson 3: I Can Pray to Heavenly Father (you can pray to Jesus too)

Lesson 1: I Am a Child of God (we are NOT BORN Children of God, we are adopted by our faith).

Lesson 8: Sunday Is a Day to Remember Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (every day is that Day, Sunday is a day of rest).

Lesson 9: I Have a Body like Heavenly Father’s (EPIC FAIL)

Lesson 14: I Will Obey (brainwashing)

Lesson 21: Joseph Smith Saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ ((EPIC FAIL #2)

Lesson 22: The Book of Mormon Teaches Me about Jesus Christ (EPIC FAIL #3)

Lesson 24: I Will Follow the Prophet (blind obedience)
Lesson 25: I Belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (identity consolidation)
Lesson 26: I Will Be Baptized and Confirmed (more brainwashing)

Lesson 27: The Sacrament Helps Me Think about Jesus Christ (Communion is about remembering Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross).

Lesson 28: Heavenly Father Blesses Me through the Priesthood (EPIC FAIL #4).


44 posted on 10/18/2010 4:29:53 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Lesson 28: heavenly father blesses me through the priesthood
________________________________________________

The veil of the Temple has been torn in 2...

So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most. Hebrews 4:16

There is no need for priests any more...

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! Hebrews 9:12-14

And God never used mere men to bless us...

What can a man or woman do for me that God cannot ???

He blesses us Himself..

I go to0 God, not man when I have a need...

SAnd when I dont have a need, I go to God anyway...

Just to worship Him and thank Him for all He does to bless me...

I worship my LORD Jesus Chrsit for shedding His precious Blood on the Cross and dying on the Cross to save me...

For taking stripes on His back to heal me...

I worship the sweet Holy Spirit, who is God, and thank Him for being my help and my guide and for bringing to my remembrance all the scriptures I need in my life and to post here for the edification of others..

Mostly I sing my praise from a heart full of love for Him for He first loved Me and died for me so that I could go to Heaven when I die and worship Him, the Lamb of God, befire the throne of God the Father.....

And have a relationship with Him during my lifetime..

Jesus loves me this I know
For my Jesus told me so..


45 posted on 10/18/2010 5:09:24 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

Where is that “2 feet” graphic from?


46 posted on 10/18/2010 5:13:29 PM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: elcid1970; T Minus Four
Anyway, I thought these Nephite cruise arks were also capable of traveling submerged (to avoid storms on the surface, you see).

Re storms @ surface & being forced under the waves:

I recall when Greyfoxx39 posted a link last year to the Jaredite Barge Contest Winners from New Era, Jul 1975, 13.

The New Era contest: The New Era proudly announces the winners of the Design-a-Jaredite-Barge Contest. There were many interesting and beautiful entries from many parts of the United States and from other countries. Although the three winning models shown here do not pretend to show what the Jaredite barges actually looked like, they do show thought and care in design and a firm understanding and reading of the Book of Mormon scriptures that describe the Jaredite barges.

The first place winner from this contest came to the conclusion upon reading the obvious unfine print in the BoM: “No doubt about it, there were holes in the top and the bottom." [Gee, really? The text plainly says that?]

His next assessment? Some people suggest two holes were called for because the barges sometimes turned over. In my opinion this would have been catastrophic, especially when you consider that the barge was full of people, food, water, and animals.

OK, let me get this straight. He's just read in the BoM that holes were to placed in the top & bottom of 8 vessels. So who are the lame-brain "let's read something completely different into the text" folks? (Other than Mormon apologists like Ash)...But certainly, I could see the motivation for these lame-brainers to want to change the text...I mean, after all, what an amateur shipbuilder's dream! Build vessels with stoppable holes in the bottom!

So, this kid didn't seem to stop & think. I mean, what's the only purpose a vessel could have for a hole in its bottom? Answer? The "bottom" wasn't always "bottom" -- sometimes it pitched & rolled & remained upside down underwater.

It was almost as if he didn't read Ether 2:24-25 and 6:5-7 which describes waves crashing upon the vessels; the vessels acting like a whale in the sea; mentions three times being driven to "the depths" of the sea...all of these are wave actions upon a "tight as a dish" barge & thereby is actually consistent then with a possible motivation for wanting a hole in the bottom. It's almost like a rolling vessel.

But, I had to give the kid credit for one thing many Lds adults have flunked on: He realized something obvious applicable to such a vessel no matter what (even tho he thought it'd only apply to a 2-hole-in-the-top vessel). And so the kid came up with the following observation re: "turned-over barges": ...the barges sometimes turned over. In my opinion this would have been catastrophic, especially when you consider that the barge was full of people, food, water, and animals.

Indeed! Yes, sir, exactly, right!

(Sometimes, Lds youth will back up into an obvious conclusion that's escaped so many older generation Mormons. Lds can't have it both ways: They can't on the one hand, try to make the case for a hole in the bottom of such a vessel -- and then pretend the turned "catastrophic" effects upon people, food, water & animals inside didn't play out -- if in fact, that purposeful design came about -- as Ether 2:24-25 & 6:5-7 says it did).

47 posted on 10/18/2010 5:28:00 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Elsie

Can you direct me to the Department of Redundancy Department?


Sure it’s just down the hall past the constantly bash and insult the Mormons office.


48 posted on 10/18/2010 5:39:21 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: Colofornian

Dear Dorothy Dix

Gee muy bathtub only has one hole at the bottom...

and everytime I try to have anice bubbly bath I turn on the taps and the water just runs out the hole in the bottom...

Do I need to holes in the bottom ???

Very Dirty


49 posted on 10/18/2010 6:02:54 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

to=two


50 posted on 10/18/2010 6:03:52 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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