those facts, you should be ashamed of yourself."
............Just the facts........
Posted on 10/25/2010 9:27:38 AM PDT by GonzoII
The Bible attests that baptism is the way a person becomes part of the “Body of Christ”, the Church. At the end of his speech at Pentecost, Peter told his hearers what they had to do to be saved: “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Note that Peter said “everyone”, not just adults. In Catholic belief, the Latin term “ex opere operato”, which literally means “from the work performed”, expresses the essentially objective mode of operation of grace imparted in the seven sacraments, by God’s Spirit, (of which baptism is the first) and its independence of the subjective attitude of either the minister or the recipient. Thus, even though infants are too young to understand and accept baptism, they can nevertheless be baptized.
Without baptism you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven
Through baptism, converts to Jesus Christ first received forgiveness of their sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and became members of the community of Christians, the Church. Does baptism have anything to do with salvation? Jesus said: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk 16:16). He told Nicodemus that “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (Jn 3:5). The Church of New Testament times responded to this teaching by immediately baptizing all new converts (See Acts 2:38, 41; 18, 8; 19:5; 22:16). Paul explained that baptism unites believers to Jesus in his death so that they will also share in his resurrection (Rom 6:35). Baptism then is also a “means” to salvation.
Baptism starts the process of salvation
From the earliest Christian centuries, the Church has baptized either by immersing or by “pouring” the water over the head of the person while praying the Trinitarian formula (Mt 28:19). Nowhere does the Bible say how much water is to be used (see Acts 9:36:37), otherwise we would be seeking salvation “by works”, and not by the grace imparted in the sacrament of Baptism. “The Church does not know of any means other than baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are „reborn of water and the Spirit'. God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (Catechism of the Church §1257)
The evidence that water Baptism starts the process of salvation is overwhelming in the Bible. However, a common evangelical bias, or prejudice, can be stated like this “Nothing we do with our bodies in the physical realm has anything whatever to do with God’s dealings with our eternal souls in the spiritual realm”. This bias has its roots in an ancient Gnostic heresy called Manichaeism, which the Catholic Church dealt with centuries ago. This evangelical notion that we should worship like angels, without the aid of our bodies, leads evangelicals to reject not only the Eucharist and Baptism, which they style “ordinances”. These are Sacraments of the New and eternal Covenant.
Living in a personal relationship with God
Evangelicals and fundamentalists are under the erroneous impression that Catholics do not believe in “having a personal relationship with the Lord”. The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states: “The mystery of the faith requires that the faithful live in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God” (§2558). Most Catholics pray to this effect when receiving their First Communion, at Confirmation or on a daily basis or whenever they receive the Body and Blood of Christ in Communion during the Catholic worship service, the Mass. The expression, however, is not found in the Bible. It is a product of our present cultural way of thinking. A more Biblical expression is: “following Christ”.
INFANT BAPTISM
Circumcision and Baptism are both rites by which people come into a special Covenant (not “ordinance”) relationship with God (see Exodus 12:48). “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you ….. This promise is for you and your children and for all those …..” Peter tells us in Acts 2:38-39. Jesus also said that no-one can enter heaven unless born again of water and the Holy Spirit (Baptism) (Jn 3:5). In Mt 19:14, Jesus urged: “Let the children be, do not keep them back from me, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these”. The fundamentalists’ argument that this does not apply to infants since the children referred to are able to approach Christ on their own, is incorrect, since the parallel texts (Lk 18:15) and the original Greek texts use the word for “infants in arms” (little children who are unable to approach Christ on their own).
More importantly, Paul likens baptism to circumcision, and it was mainly infants who were circumcised under the Old Law (see Col 2:11-12). Circumcision of adults in Judaism was rare, there being few converts. If Paul, in making this parallel, meant to exclude infants from Baptism, it is strange that he did not say so. In everyday life people use water for cleanliness and hygiene as a precaution against dirt and disease. Water in one form or another is also an absolute necessity if a person is to stay alive Among the Jews of Palestine ritual cleansing with water was a common practice. It was this ritual cleansing to which Jesus gave a deeper spiritual meaning. He did this by connecting the Holy Spirit’s working in the believer’s life in a particular way with water. It is by the Holy Spirit’s working in the water of baptism that the spiritual corruption of sin is washed away and a new life with God is begun (Jn 3:5, Titus 3:5, Jn 7:37-38). Naturally enough, the people we read about being baptized in Scripture, are adults because they were converted as adults. This makes sense because Christianity was just starting out and there were no “cradle Christians”, no people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.
Infant baptism in the New Testament
Does the Bible say that infants and young people can be baptized? There are some good indications. Lydia was converted with all her household (Acts 16:15). The expression “with all one's household” in Jewish usage meant the inclusion, not only of children but of servants. The jailer of Paul and Silas was converted by them. We are told that “without delay, he and all his household were baptized” (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, “Yes, and I did baptize the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor 1:16). In the case of the jailer, “He and all his” must refer to himself and at least two others. If it were just the jailer and his wife it would read “he and his wife”, but it says “He and all his”, which must include children, as well. The scripture evidence here leans in favor of infant baptism. There is nothing in the Bible that says infants and young children were unsuited to Baptism. Infant baptism in the early Church.
Fundamentalists do not pay much attention to historical evidence, yet early Christian practice clearly shows that infants were baptized. Origen, for instance, in the 3rd century, wrote: “The Church received from the apostles the practice of giving baptism also to infants, though they do not have sins of their own: so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ and that they be his members”. This and other quotes from esteemed Fathers of the Church of the early centuries, such as Origen and John Chrysostom, in their writings “Commentarii in Romanos 5:9” and “Catechesis ad illuminandos”, cannot go unheeded. The Ecumenical Council of Carthage in the year 252 AD debated the fact, not that infants should not be baptized, but that it should not be withheld from them until the eighth day of birth, as with circumcision, with the Jews. There was no record in the early Church of anyone condemning infant baptism, showing that it was common practice.
Other outstanding leaders in the early Church testifying to the Church’s practice of infant baptism are Polycarp of Smyrna (167/8 AD), Justin Martyr (died 165 AD), Cyprian of Carthage (C. 249 AD), and Hippolytus of Rome (170-236 AD), Irenaeus of Lyons (120-202 AD). St Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century taught strongly of the necessity of Baptism for wiping away “original sin” – the sin of our first parents, which we all inherit. The 16th Synod of Carthage (418 AD) definitely condemned those who denied baptism to new-born babies.
The most common question about infant Baptism is: “How can a parent or guardian’s faith substitute for the faith of a child?” It is noteworthy that Jesus did not pose this question. When Jairus asked Jesus to raise his young daughter from the dead (Mk 5:22-43) or another father asked Jesus to expel a demon from his son (Mk 9:17-27), Jesus acted with power because of their faith, not the faith of their children.
How much more would Jesus desire to free children from an even worse bondage, the bondage of sin, and raise them to eternal life, in response to the faith of their parents and of the whole Christian community. But the Catholic Church also teaches that the parents of the baptized child must provide a faith environment that will prepare the child to make a personal commitment to Jesus Christ on reaching maturity.
Nothing is sadder than the sight of those little plots of ground in some cemeteries, particularly in America, where children have been buried in separate, often unconsecrated sections, simply because their parents adhered to denominations who do not believe in infant Baptism.
CONFIRMATION
Confirmation is the sacrament of the Church for the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the life of a baptized Christian. The Holy Spirit first comes into a person at baptism (Acts 2:38) but the Acts of the Apostles also speaks of the prayer for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:15-17). “When Paul laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied”. (Acts 19:6). Later on, an anointing with oil was also added to the Sacrament. Through the Sacrament, the Holy Spirit empowers God’s people to proclaim the Good News with power, to live the message and to continue Jesus’ mission and ministry in the world. Expectant faith is necessary to experience and receive the full power of the Spirit. Many today have come to know this power in a fuller way through the “baptism (or release) of the Spirit.”
Written by John Lee and Frank Bompas. Printed with ecclesiastical approval.
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Pamphlet 032
Rmember it is Baptism now Saves you, nothing about repentance, baptism alone;
1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
I was raised Methodist, and then went to Southern Baptist and now in a non-denominational evangelical church
if you were legitimately baptized anywhere, you are a Catholic....you can only be baptized into the Christian church and Catholicism is the only true Christian church on earth.....it was founded by Jesus Himself....not Martin Luther, Wesley, Zwingley, Calvin, Henry viii or joseph Smith. Now, you can be a fallen away Catholic if you like and join any one of many thousands of “what’s happening now” denominations....but that changes nothing
You mean, give your eternal future over to the hands of corrupt men who like to pull doctrines such as Mary being the co-redemptrix, Mary being sinless, Mary being perpetually a virgin, and the 7 sacraments(the Galatian error codified) out of their fannies.
Sounds like fun.
...so explain the thief on the cross - he was saved by Jesus, but not baptized, yet promised to be in paradise...
Wow! What a great debate technique; you can't answer the evidence, You can't dispute the truth so you throw out a whole bunch of red herrings.
Listen Try and find some evidence to refute the topic we are discussing and get back to me. If you really want to discuss those other issues, start a new thread, ping me and I will discuss those seperately.
Until then stick tot he topic at hand.
Hey Hodar ... when I was a young Catholic I was told the purpose of infant baptism was to “wash away” original sin to give “a fresh start” to the new young Christian...does anyone still talk about that angle or was I told wrong by those wacky nuns back in the 60s? ... magritte
............Just the facts........
There are three types of Baptism, namely, by water, by blood (martyrdom), and desire. The thief was baptised by desire.
Sorry, baptism is NOT a means to salvation. All scripture listed above as support for this claim, all also reference believing in Jesus Christ, the real and only means to salvation. (except Rom 6:35 which isn't in my bible 1-23)
(John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)
I remember being baptized (the first time), as a five year old. I remember it being a big deal, where I was the center of attention, and for once I was important. I did have it explained to me about the roll of my godparents (Ray & Dorothy), should that ever become necessary. I got a huge shiny stop watch as a gift. I got sprinkled, words were said, then it was over and I had no idea what it all meant except for some reason my parents were expecting to die prematurely.
Does a newborn have more understanding than a five year old? Baptize babies all you want, it won't save them, but it won't hurt them either. It very well may be a significant affirmation of God, and parents willingness to ask God to bless their child. All good things, but not salvation.
Are they saved by God's grace? I think so.
Age of accountability? I think so, although I don't think it is some arbitrary age, rather a specific point in ones life regardless of years of life. This is just my opinion, I will have to wait for the answer to this mystery to be shown to me.
Were those in the house of Cornelius who were speaking in tongues as Peter delivered a sermon not saved until Peter baptised them?
>>God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism<<
That is a misinterpretation of Scripture. The paragraph includes the statement “reborn of water and the Spirit”. The verse that comes from is John 3:5 (and it doesn’t say reborn but born)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That refers back to Ezek 36
Ezek 36: 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
He was not talking here about physical water but the cleansing of his word. He also calls His word “living water”.
God made this promise to Israel about a new covenant. He said, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all you idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances or my commandments.”
Now what Ezekiel is writing there is, that the day is going to come when the Lord will wash your heart, he’ll wash your life; he’ll wash your inner man. He’ll put a new heart in you and he’ll put his Spirit in you.
So when Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says, “you must be born of the water and the Spirit,” Nicodemus knows immediately that he is saying, “I am come to bring the fulfillment of the promised new covenant, promised to and through Ezekiel.” Okay? See his is a Jewish Old Testament context, and so it would be actually what the apostle Paul calls, “The washing of regeneration.” The washing, the internal washing of regeneration, and the renewing that comes by the Holy Spirit, that’s Titus 3:5 where you have both the water and the Spirit.
The whole phrase “born of water” is only referring to “born of Jesus word” not physical baptism.
If you have no understanding of right or wrong, no comprehension of cause and effect, how can you sin? A baby is born perfect, and innocent of sin, and remains so until he reaches the age of reason.
When you know right from wrong, and consciously chose to do wrong, with full understanding - then you have sinned.
A child at the age of 12 understands the basics of right and wrong, and chooses. They are held accountable for their transgressions. But a baby can neither comprehend what a sin is, promise to stop committing that sin, understand the concept of remorse nor vocalize to acknowledge either guilt or forgiveness. Thus, they are the purest souls on the planet.
It’s just that simple. Because they do not understand, they are saved. This is part of Christ’s atonement.
The speaking in tongues was a sign to Peter that they should be baptised immediately.
Baptism is only an outward sign of the washing of the word of Jesus. The word is like a living stream of water. Scripture speaks often about the word of God as a stream of living water. Baptism has nothing to do with Salvation. Many people throughout the Bible were saved without being Baptized. The thief on the Cross being one of them.
My question was were they saved prior to being baptised?
NIV:
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Or in the KJV:
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Note that “....baptism that now saves you also....” is different than “...baptism, which saves you now...” The latter allowing emphasis on the now.
You will also note that the “...answer of a good conscience towards God)... requires REPENTANCE.
Note that I am not arguing AGAINST baptism. In Mark 16:16 (16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.) Jesus makes it very clear that belief + baptism = salvation. But if one does not believe then Jesus makes it very clear that person shall not be saved.
What does that belief mean or require:
1) That there is a God
2) That God is the one, only and true (perfect) God
3) That God being perfect, can not accept or tolerate sin and will judge and separate those that sin from himself
4) That God made man with the right of self awareness and self determination
5) That Man sinned against God and chose a sinful nature
6) That unless that sin is atoned for, the punishment for that sin is eternal separation from God (see#3)
7) That God in his grace and mercy created Jesus to pay for and atone for our sins so that we may be saved
8) That Jesus came and died, rose again and paid for our sins
9) That I am a sinner and my past life was lived in sin.
Now here is the tipping point, the point where belief turns to action, the “repentance point”.
10) That I no longer wish to live in sin and that I will accept Jesus and his teachings to govern my life so that I might be saved and in doing so, I will turn away from my formal sinful self and follow the Jesus. And as an act of obedience to the new Lord of my life, I will outwardly show this by being baptized in his name.
A failure to believe or faith in any of those 10 foundational items seriously jeopardizes the “believe” part of Mark 16:16. As to my prior point, children that do not yet believe, or anyone for that matter, are not in alignment with Jesus teachings.
Dedicating a child to God is a good idea. Parents do this all the time and it is a great way for the parents to publicly commit to raising a child in Christ.
“If you have no understanding of right or wrong, no comprehension of cause and effect, how can you sin?” Paul addresses that in Romans Chptr 2. He even goes so far as to contrast with the Jew who has knowledghe of the law being judged by the law and the ignorant being judged by the same law since the essence of right and wrong are written on the heart ... of man. Absent the law, one is innocnet of the law of transgression.
Babies are born innocent, but not perfect. They are born with Original Sin on their souls, thanks to the sin of Adam. Through baptism, they are washed clean, due to the sacrifice of the New Adam, Who is Christ.
Babies are born innocent, but not perfect. They are born with Original Sin on their souls, thanks to the sin of Adam. Through baptism, they are washed clean, due to the sacrifice of the New Adam, Who is Christ.
Do you have this verse in your Bible?
1 Peter 3:20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
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