Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
“”All double predestination means is that God is sovereign and He chooses His children and who will be with Him in Heaven.””
Everyone is chosen to be God’s children,it’s our free decisions that send us to hell and has nothing to do with God sovereignty deciding from eternity.God can only desire goodness in creation since that is His essence.Hell is completed connected to mans decisions to do evil
“Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made” (Wisd. xi, 25)
From the words of the late blessed Pope JPII...
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.
FK-””I really may not understand what the Church teaches here as I find these two sections completely contradictory. One shares credit between God and man’s free will (meaning will that has not been under God’s control)””
Nothing contradictory,dear brother. Man moved by Grace can accept that Grace and freely follow God’s will,thus man synergistically WITH GOD does good works enlightened by the Holy Spirit being fully aware and wanting to participate with God through that synergism with God.
A few words from Church Fathers...
“When effort on our part is absent, then God’s help also stops.” Saint John Chrysostom
“God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace.” 190 AD St. Clement of Alexandria Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21
Everyone is chosen to be God’s children,it’s our free decisions that send us to hell and has nothing to do with God sovereignty deciding from eternity.God can only desire goodness in creation since that is His essence.Hell is completed connected to mans decisions to do evil
“Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made” (Wisd. xi, 25)
If one examines Scriptural inclusion of the 'reprobate', one discovers that there are only 3 instances and only in Paul. They speak of reprobate of works and of faith. Not of the pre-damned of Reformed theology.
***I don’t care what individual FRoman Catholics believe.***
Funny thing is that you Romanists interpret the Roman Catholic catechism in many different ways.
Each of you seems to be your own Pope her on FT, telling us what Rome teaches.
Exactly!
Again, I don't particularly care. The Catechism is final. I have had some Protestant friends who were at least as knowledgeable about the Catechism as I am. Unlike the children of the Reformation who have the licence to come up with whatever the hell they come up with, for whatever reason, we are not free to create our own religion. Else, we fall outside of the Faith and are, or should be, excommunicated like that nun in Pheonix, AZ., who was in the business of baby butchering.
Exactly!
Our Reformed friends are interestingly silent. And their sycophants are speechless.
Sure, but Jesus was obviously not splitting His "hypostatic union" (if I am using that correctly) and speaking in His "Divine-only" capacity. Just a few verses earlier He says: John 14:9-14 : 9...This doesn't match a stand alone "the Father is greater than I"
Of course it does. :) It implies, according to the Greek word used, that the Father is even more excellent that the Son. John 14:9-14 doesn't show otherwise. The excellence of the Father is not a stand-alone feature but an ongoing one of the New Testament.
ping
Jesus also referenced his own works as being a “greater witness than that of John” as well as the then-existing Scriptures, (Jn. 5:36,39) in substantiating His claims and teachings. And he likewise reproved the Jews for presuming that physical lineage validated their claim to be sons of Abraham, (Jn. 8:39,44) a presumption which Paul also corrected. (Rm. 2:28,29) While under the Old Testament the magisterial teaching office was perpetuated through the Levitical priesthood, which was based upon physical lineage as well as formal ordination, this did not render them assuredly infallible interpreters of the Scriptures, and presumption to teach doctrines which were contrary to Scripture was reproved by the Lord and using Scripture. (Mk. 7:6-13) And it is self-evident in the New Testament that the Law, the Psalms and writings of the prophets (Lk. 24:27,44) had come to be accepted as Scripture without an infallible magisterium, although certainly that teaching office was important to that process.
As concerns Roman Catholicism, the claim is made his that her historicity, in which she claims she uniquely is the same church as that of the first century onward (including the fourth century when the canon of Scripture was largely settled from), confers upon her a unique interpretive authority, and even being more so, an assuredly infallible magisterium. And which office in turn infallibly interprets both history Scripture to mean that she is that one true church.*
However, as pointed out before, if her historical argument was accepted as a basis for her authenticity, the logic behind this claim would require us to submit to the Jewish magisterium in interpretation of Scripture, as they alone are explicitly declared to to be the stewards of Scripture, a least those which then existed. But by whose interpretation there would be no New Testament.
But as the church exists by faith, and overcomes the gates of Hell by it, and faith comes by hearing their word of God, and the Scriptures are the only source which are assuredly wholly inspired of God, then for those who accept Scripture it should be held as the supreme judge of faith and morals. And as God could essentially raise up from stones children to Abraham, so he can raised up a church using stones like Peter, who profess the essential truth by which the faith journey begins.
Yet the church does not exist estranged from history, for faith without works is dead, and the testimony and teaching of extra-Biblical believers works to influence understanding of faith, and of the Object of it. However, if they have any valid testimony and teaching then it is a result of having believed the word of God, which again Scripture is, and which itself was essentially established as being such by its qualities and the attestation given it by God, including effects which result from believing it. But as influential as such men are, they were not assuredly infallible, and all must be subject to warrant and conformity with that which is written (we know which writings of Biblical men were inspired by their inclusion therein). That said, the more one's testimony is effectual like that of Scripture then the more power he will have with men, and with God.
Other issues related to this is the uncertainty as to how many of all the writings of Rome are infallible, its inability to fully understanding every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, and the degree of disagreement which Catholics and clergy are allowed to have and do have concerning those which are not, as well as the need to interpret both fallible and infallible teachings. Within Catholic scholarship there are two very diverse camps even as concerns interpretation of Scripture, while her laity evidence greater disagreement in basic moral issues in certain doctrines than her Evangelical counterparts.
How this relates to the doctrinal unity SS type evangelicals most universally have regards core essentials, and the unity of the Spirit as a result, and the degree they may disagree in secondary matters, is a further consideration, but this is long enough already.
EXCELLENT POINTS.
EXCELLENT POST.
THX.
I've let this observation sit for a while, hoping someone better equipped to address the matter might happen upon it, and correct such a peculiar misperception.
The Old Testament God is the New Testament God. God is eternal. He is the Great I AM. Anyone who believes it was God who changed from Old to New is deluded. If the "Latin" God is not the Old Testament God, then there is a problem with the "Latin" belief, not the Calvinist.
God is not all love and forgiveness and the New Testament does not claim that that is His sole nature. Vengeance and judgment are His and always have been.
Our Calvinist brothers and sisters are more severe in their beliefs, that much is clear to anyone who has participated here for any length of time. Their beliefs regarding predestination seem to me to be rather too harsh and mechanical, instead of accepting the fact that we do have free will to choose Him or not. That our decisions have always been known does not change that.
But, predestination does acknowledge the foreknowledge and that the ultimate fate for each of us sitting here today is known and always has been. So, I'm not going to nitpick and squabble over it. Their doctrine is theirs, and whether or not I dispute it does not affect their salvation or mine, it's a minor matter in the greater scheme of things.
Putting created beings, dead or alive, in a position of authority or even as intercessor between us and God is not a minor doctrinal matter, and so we see the apparently endless debate. Calvinists have been the most determined to point out the error in this, but it's an error that is recognized by most deemed "Protestant." Could the language be less provocative? It certainly could. But, then again, severity is a hallmark of Calvinism, in my perception at least, and so it's to be expected to some extent.
I would think it axiomatic among Christians that the Bible wasn't assembled for the whole world but for Christians only (including future Christians).
The Torah was assembled for Christians? The Gentiles are included only insofar as the Seven Noachide Laws are concerned. The Gentiles have no other role in In God's plan. The Torah is about the Jews and for the Jews, and Christians are not Jews.
The entirety of the OT points directly to Christ, so there would have been plenty to check. :) Jesus said: John 5:45-47...
This is like a Mormon "proving" the entirety of the OT points to Latter day Saints because the Book of Mormon says so. Moses did not write a single word about Jesus or anyone like him, except in convoluted Christian rationalizations and alterations, such as demonstrated here.
The author argues that Matthew misquotes and/or distorts Jewish prophets, contradicts other Gospels, and makes up stories by providing bible verses and references.
I am not posting his arguments (they have already been posted on FR on July 21, 2010 by another poster) because my intention is not to get into the polemics, but to simply remind you that things are not as clear cut as you seem to present them.
You ask for proof that Scripture tells us that salvation is by the grace of God through faith alone. I and others have repeatedly shown you the proofs from the Word of God. What you seem to not understand is that when God tells us something, dealing with the most critical subject of "what must a man do to be saved", he never minces words and that is what you seem to be doing. Why would Scripture say through faith in Christ we are purified, sanctified and justified and then omit the very thing you say is required - our works? The verses I gave never said faith plus some other thing, so we may have confidence that this is what God is speaking to. Salvation is by grace through faith, just as he says.
We are not saved by works of the law, you say you agree, but you then say it is by "works of love", "works of faith" that bring salvation. Yet, you totally leave out the impetus for those very works - the new birth. Salvation comes through faith in the saving grace of God who gave his son to be the propitiation for our sins. His blood pays for sin, completely. Our works are a by-product of the changed heart of flesh that was once stone, the new nature versus the old sin nature. It is Christ working in us to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Phil. 2:13)
So, if you choose to do your good works out of your own strength to ensure your salvation, then you are rejecting the grace of God that promises salvation to us through faith and that, by his power and grace, he works his will through us to the praise of his glory. It's the MOTIVE that he cares about. Works done to add to the grace he has already given us, nullifies his grace and will not save.
Titus 3:5-7
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
But we know that what was written was not all the same, as great many variant manuscripts show, and that there were errors and additions and omissions, and that Chirtsianity neither used the same books, nor preached the exact same faith for three centuries.
Just like today, they all preached Christ, their version of who and what he is. Sure, they all had some version of the Gospels, be it either the one where the Great Commission does not have the Triniatrian formula in it (as attested by Eusebius in the third century), which also the Book of Acts strongly supports, or be it the long or short versions of Luke's Gospel, or be it the Peshitta or the various 2nd century AD attempts to bring LXX closer to the Hebrew text (Aquila, Symmachs, etc.), etc.
All this has been erased or eliminated, or conveniently forgotten, or even destroyed or buried somewhere, so as not to cause any 'confusion'. And the myriad of other books, besides the "canonical" ones that were used by Christian apologetics were simply expunged as profane and purged from the canon, including the ones found in the oldest complete Bibles dating back to the 4th century, as if they never existed.
[FK: The Apostles taught orally with authority from Christ] [Who says?]Jesus did in His Great Commission.
And who wrote the Great Commission if not the very people who claim to teach with the authority of Christ!? This is like the Congress voting itself a pay raise.
Judaism never believed in the devil.
Moses was also an "observant Jew" (as Jesus approved of Moses' testimony about Him).
Of course he did. Written in retrospect by people vying desperately for some divine authority as they were being kicked out of synagogues as apostates and heretics by the Jewish community. Remember, this is "John" writing at the end of the first century as this was taking place. Besides, there is no Mosaic testimony of Jesus, in the minds of people capable of hyperbolic rationalizations.
If Moses testified about the correct Jesus then he testified about a Jesus who believed in the existence of satan. Therefore, the faiths of the OT righteous included knowledge of satan.
If is the operanat word here, FK. John 5:46 does not correspond to anything specific Moses wrote about Christ, unless of course one uses some pretty far out ideations. Judaism simply does not believe in satan, and never did. Apparently some heretical Jewish sects did under the influence of Zoriastrinaism.
If the works of the Law, which are from God, cannot save, what on earth makes people think that the works THEY decide on, the works which are from men, can save?
As i have pointed out before, the only kind of saving faith is one that bears fruits which correspond to repentant faith, and “things which accompany salvation, and which is overall what Reformers taught.
Thus “the doers of the law shall be justified” (Rm. 2:13) not because they merit it by works, but because it is that kind of faith which is salvific.
But as stated before, the Scriptures also warn of denying the faith, and of forfeiting what faith appropriates. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 10:25-39)
Get ready, one day you will stand before the Lord God Almighty and explain to him why you call grace through faith "drivel".
Christians are exhorted to be faithful in doing good because it is what being a Christian is about. By our lives we give testimony of the rebirth that comes when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. Good works such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness are called the "fruits of the Spirit". They indicate a person who has been born of the Spirit and it is his work within us. By our free will we choose to do these works, we assent to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit to purify and mature our faith. Any person God uses to lead his people has this calling to not only lead others to a faith in Christ as Savior but to surrender themselves to him as their Lord.
The role of the evangelist is to lead people to saving faith in Jesus Christ and then to direct them to a fellowship of believers for instructions in living the full life of a Christian. The apostles went about preaching the Gospel and the assemblies of believers formed in every area to pray, learn, share burdens with and worship the Lord in unison. The pastors, teachers, elders, even each believer had roles within the congregation. The assembly was intended to be for those believers who had been won to Christ by the preaching of the soul winners and everyone of us should be winning souls to Jesus.
Amen!
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