Posted on 11/09/2010 4:31:20 PM PST by Gamecock
He is taking what Irenaeus out of context to try to prove a point. Irenaeus was very adamant about the fact that all of what the Church should teach has been written down in Scripture. The Catholics have a problem with that because they claim Irenaeus as a Church leader but still want to have us believe things like the ascension of Mary and other things which are not in Scripture. Irenaeus would have considered that Gnostic.
Yes, that portion does. Irenaeus would however have had a problem with teachings of the Catholic Church such as the ascension of Mary for instance. He would have considered that Gnostic because it can not be found in Scripture.
I believe that is out of context. Due to the 2nd posting I put up. IMHO He really is pointing out that only certain People(apostolic tradition) can interpret it. But I see why you believe it as such. This view started with James White I believe. Thank you for discourse.
In other words, because it is not consistent with what you believe to accept that he actually wrote these words.
“Protestants, diss Mary at your own peril”
This is a silly premise that I notice many Catholics cling to; the notion that Protestants do not like Mary. Of course, this is an absurdity since Bible reading Protestants understand that Mary was blessed among women and accord her that honor. What Protestants do not approve of is the Roman Catholic and Orthodox adulation of Mary that is akin to worship, if not actually so in some cases. Worship is to be given to Christ alone, of course. Mary, the mother of Jesus is an example of piety and love in the Bible and Protestants are taught that. So perhaps once and for all, Catholics will not make the assumption that just because Protestants do not kneel before statues of Mary in the sanctuary does not mean we do not recognize the “humble bondservant of God.”
Great post. And yes, the Catholic church is definitely going the way of Gnostic false doctrine. Catholics have never correctly responded to my post about Colossians 1:18 which clearly states that Christ Jesus is the HEAD of the body and Christian Church, not the Pope, who is practicing Jewish works of the law for righteousness, which is incorrect for today’s Grace of God; in which all our sins have been forgiven from the completed work of Christ on the cross. Praise Christ Jesus for forgiving ALL sins 2,000 years ago. No need to pray to dead saints for removing someone from purgatory (Hell) and then Lake of Fire.
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.as you can see he quite contrarily to your deduction, actually supports Apostolic Succession and the right of The Church to be the sole repository of interpretation of scripture since this is what The Apostles from Peter, John, Paul etc. did and handed down to their successor bishops.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peaceand we have +Irenaeus in his book Against Heresies saying
“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures."Note that The Church is the treasurehold, the Body of Christ in which the Apostles safeguarded the Holy Tradition that birthed Holy Scripture. Scripture is closed. Holy Tradition does not contradict it. The Church as the people of Christ is the custodian of This Faith. As Cardinal Newman also said in his essay, "To be deep into history is to cease to be Protestant."
Actually, Ireneus DID write that supporting apostolic sucession, The Church, the bishop of Rome’s primacy and Holy Tradition. Only folks 1600 or 1800 years after the event seem to think they know better about what Ireneus did or did not write. Which is quite strange, but not so strange when you think that these editors also edit out the facts of the Didache that prove that The Early Church’s practises and believes are continued in orthodoxy, not in the evangelical sects or in the pent-e-coastals or baptists.
Actually, the only pagan drivel is held by groups such as Mormons, Unitarians, your group, etc. who believe in worshipping multiple gods, nothing and Melek-Taus (respectively) and are not Christian. Why would your group consider Melek-Taus to worship and relegate God to an uncaring robot creator?
What a silly premise that we WORSHIP Mary....we don’t...we revere her and honor her. We can pray before any statue of any saint, we don’t adore them either. Silly.
When my children say their prayers at night, I have them pray for “those who have nobody to pray for them”, since that was how Mary described the beings that they could see in the fire...
You taught them well...:)
Thanks, but I think one of them is overly terrified (and he’s not yet 10).
When a person kneels before a statue of anything be it a saint or a king , that person is practicing a form of adoration. In my post I said that the kind of veneration the Catholic church accords to Mary, the mother of Jesus, is AKIN to worship which means that it is like worship. However, that being said, you cannot tell me that thousands of old Italian ladies as well as my Greek grandmother did not worship her. They did! They prayed specifically to her for intercession which is unbiblical and kept statues and icons of her surrounded by candles in private family altars. I am sorry but whether you admit it or not, these are the hallmarks of worship. Protestants ought to love those clouds of witnesses that have come before including Mary who was indeed blessed by being chosen by God to be the mother of Christ, but we do not kneel down to them
>>Apostolic Succession and the right of The Church to be the sole repository of interpretation of scripture<<
Here again, in the quote below. You have only proven my supposition. Irenaeus himself explained what “derived from the apostles meant when he said that the apostles had written everything down in the scriptures and it was not to be added to as the Gnostics had.
>>by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles<<
Irenaeus’ whole disagreement with the Gnostics was that their teaching could not be proven from written scripture.
It is clear that what Irenaeus meant by proof was documentation from Scripture. This lack of it proved to him that Gnostic teaching was not apostolic. In fact, Irenaeus goes on to say that if a doctrine cannot be proven from Scripture it is purely speculative and cannot be known. He made it clear that revelation comes only through Scripture, so if Scripture is silent on a subject one cannot pretend to know what it does not reveal. He rejected the legitimacy of speculation on any matter not revealed in Scripture.
The importance of this principle is apparent when applied to the subject of tradition. Irenaeus believed that true apostolic tradition cannot be purely oral in nature—it must be verified from the writings of the apostles. This was the point of contention between Irenaeus and his Gnostic opponents. The Gnostics claimed to possess an oral tradition from the apostles which was supplemental to Scripture and immune to the Scriptural proofs demanded by Irenaeus. According to Irenaeus, in order for tradition to be demonstrated as truly apostolic it must be documented from Scripture.
The Gnostics claimed to possess an oral tradition not documented in scripture and by claiming that the Church leadership today does also you are agreeing with Irenaeus that today’s Church leadership is also Gnostic.
There again in your post 30 you go on and on but end up only claiming succession of Church leadership. Your trying to insert that it’s all right for the Church leadership to claim knowledge somehow not included in written scripture.
That is precisely what Irenaeus had against the Gnostics. He very specifically says:
“They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...” (Irenaeus)
and
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” (Irenaeus)
Once again, you are trying to claim that Church leadership of today somehow has knowledge not contained in written scripture. That is exactly what Irenaeus would have called Gnostic teaching.
Then we hear from Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, who Speaks on Mary...
My dear friend, you are confusing apples and oranges. On the one hand, this "no screen name" is discussing apparitions, possibly demonic. OTOH, you are discussing the historical BVM, a real-life historical woman who bore Jesus and lived with Joseph.
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