Posted on 11/26/2010 5:25:45 AM PST by jafojeffsurf
“Catholic Caucus”
I am stating to learn some Catholic Apologetics and wanted to get some thoughts on a point I have not seen made so far in my learning’s. I know there are some very learned Catholics out there and wanted to get your perspectives on this.
To Minister can have several meanings: A servant; a subordinate; an officer or assistant of inferior rank; hence, an agent, an instrument. Definition source: http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/minister
Matthew 4:11 “Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.” The very next verse 4:12 “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;”
Cannot an assumption be made that the Angles informed Jesus of Johns predicament? Would this not be intersession? As I understand our faith angles / saints have specific areas of responsibility (patron saints) and their prayers of intercessions do not go unheard by the Lord. Would not then this text be further proof of that belief?
I know in past discussion on this forum other faiths have issues of the dead praying for intersession, yet I find this a good example of how heavenly hosts can intercede on our behalf.
I’d like to get some other Catholic perspective on this scripture interpretation.
Yep your right “angels here and not angles” angels.
Yes moral support makes some sense and fits into the traditional understanding that they fall into this meaning “A servant; a subordinate; an officer or assistant of inferior rank; hence, an agent, an instrument.”
So, would this not then be point to intersession. After all the argument from others is God/Jesus knows it all and is all powerful, yet this supports the point he lends his ear to others. In this case to strengthen him for the ordeal and the fact he was in flesh form. Or as just another open example he did to Abraham and is capable to changes his intent due to others.
Now the case could be made that in the verse with the angels they were saying supporting things vice asking for help, but it does address one concern often brought up by other denominations in that the heavenly host / the dead do not have any say with the Lord. They obvious do and to believe this interaction from the ones the Lord loves and would not support requests from them is week and blindsided when you consider the love the Lord our God has for us and them.
Intercessory prayer asks for help. I believe the angels came too Jesus of their own accord. After all, he was the Son of Man, the Son of God.
Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
How do you pray?
How (and Why) of Daily Prayer
Passionate Prayer – Part Two
Passionate Prayer – Part One
Prayer the Great Means of Salvation: Ch.1: The Necessity of Prayer, Sect. 3 Invocation of the Saints
Pray Always
The Mystery and Power of Personal Prayer
The Three Ways of Attention and Prayer; Orthodox/Catholic Caucus
Lesson One in Prayer
Prayer and Suffering
Prayer, Charity and the Joy of Forgiveness (some spiritual catechesis from Cardinal Sean)
Does Prayer Work?--Research and ‘Unanswered’ Prayer
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
The Power of Prayer
Prayer Study: Humans Fail to Manipulate God
Study fails to show healing power of prayer
Explanation of the Prayer of Saint Michael [Father Robert J. Altier]
24-7 prayer movement spreads on college campuses
Confession for RCIA Candidates And More on the Prayer of the Faithful
That has nothing to do with it...You are trying to push the idea that angels interceded for, apparently John, to pass along to Jesus something from John...And that, obviously, to bolster your false notion that Mary and dead Saints intercede between us and Jesus...
There's no connection between the angels ministering to Jesus and Jesus hearing about John's trouble...No connection whatsoever...
Correction: The Catholic Church compiled the books that make up what we ALL accept as the Bible.
But then you immediately jump to 1 Timothy 2:5. You neglected to post what Paul says prior to this passage:
Before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why? Paul addresses this in 1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
You also do not want to look deeper into the question which was posed. Knowing you alread disagree with this is not new for we already discussed this issue in the past indirectly:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2558613/posts
So if you wish to dig deeper what are some of the common arguments to intersession from other denominations? Like why pray to a dead people they are dead. Pray to the Lord, Our savior, and no one else for that is idol worship? No man dead or alive has any power of the Lord… and so on. With these mindsets in mind are there scriptural references to support the Catholic faith. The answer is yes and learning them is my objective. What many forget is we are far from the first people to discuss these thoughts and concepts. There is 2000 years of history where these things have been discuss and much of that time was when there was one church.
The question in this post is rooted in the meaning of minister, but one of the side points has to do with saints(dead) and angels (also some saints, Michel, Gabriel…) do have the lords ear one way or another thus addressing those root comments from other denomination. Not that this one scripture (Matthew 4:11) tells all, but rather is just another point in the line to conclusion. See post #21
Our goals as Christians is and should be to seek the truth, yet look around and there are over 80,000 denominations. Does God’s standards change? Yet how many denominations have changed their core values over the years? God’s core values do not change and it is not suppose to be a cake walk, but the truth is out there we only need to seek it.
Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, humility is the inverse of pride and something Christ has taught us. Maybe a refresher in this lesson could serve many well.
Very true. My response was to an insinuation that we are not a “bible-believing” church, but you said it better than I did. Thanks!!!
Over 80,000 now, eh??? You guys are a trip...
Does God’s standards change? Yet how many denominations have changed their core values over the years? God’s core values do not change and it is not suppose to be a cake walk, but the truth is out there we only need to seek it.
Yes it is a cakewalk...All you have to do is turn to Jesus and make Him your Savior...
The question in this post is rooted in the meaning of minister, but one of the side points has to do with saints(dead) and angels (also some saints, Michel, Gabriel…)
Michael and Gabriel are not Saints, or saints...They are Angels...Your religion made that up and you decided to push the fallacy as some sort of truth...What's the source for that idea...It certainly didn't come from scripture...
Not that this one scripture (Matthew 4:11) tells all, but rather is just another point in the line to conclusion.
That one scripture doesn't tell anything that you want it to tell...
With these mindsets in mind are there scriptural references to support the Catholic faith. The answer is yes and learning them is my objective.
Sure...And the earth is square...And as as soon as I get the details, I'll let you know...
Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, humility is the inverse of pride and something Christ has taught us. Maybe a refresher in this lesson could serve many well.
Including yourself...You are trying to teach us that your religion is true and you haven't even studied any material to find out if that's so...
All Catholics, that is...Millions of Protestants do not accept your Catholic bible(s)...
Catholic Bibles contain—and have always contained—all of the books of the Bible that have been traditionally accepted by Christians dating back to the time of Jesus. These accepted books total 46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. Protestant Bibles, however, have seven fewer books in their Old Testament. These seven books excluded in the Protestant Bible are Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel. These books were rejected by Protestant Reformers in the 1500s because elements in these books did not support certain Protestant theology and doctrines. Prior to the sixteenth century, however, all Christians used Bibles containing all 46 books of the Old Testament.
During the first century, there was much debate among the early Christians as to what made up the canon of Scripture. The Church, having been given authority by Jesus Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (see The Church and the Papacy), compiled the Bible in the form that it exists today.
Purely conjecture...There is no evidence that the Catholic version of the scriptures existed at this time...
The Church, having been given authority by Jesus Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (see The Church and the Papacy), compiled the Bible in the form that it exists today.
The Apostles and Disciples were not the Catholic religion regardless of what your religion claims...In fact, they warned us to reject religions that resemble yours...
And when the scriptures were mass produced into the languages of the people, your religion was and is still rejected by millions upon millions of Christians who are able to read...
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