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How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ
Pure Mormonism ^ | October 31, 2010 | Alan Rock Waterman

Posted on 11/30/2010 9:14:06 AM PST by greyfoxx39

 

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The Vanishing LDS Church
Alan Rock Waterman

Without a doubt the most startling discovery in Daymon Smith's book is his revelation that the church that Joseph Smith established in 1830 no longer even exists. At all.
 
http://www.amazon.com/Book-Mammon-About-Corporation-Mormons/product-reviews/1451553706/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

What we think of as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, says Smith, operates today as a mere trademark of the corporation that owns the name to it. The actual church that used to go by that name, and which claims Jesus Christ as its head, does not exist today in any legally recognized form.

I realize that sounds impossible for some people to grasp. Well, I'm here to help.

As it so happens, I know something about corporate law as it applies to churches, so allow me to back up a bit here and give you a quick crash course so you can understand how a government chartered corporation can own a church that no longer even exists. I promise to make it easy to understand.


Corpus Descriptum  
(See, it's getting easier already!)

A corporation is an organization chartered by the state and given many legal rights separate from its owners. You with me so far? Didn't think so.

Okay, think of Frankenstein's monster. No, scratch that. Too evil.

Think of a robot that you and your friends control. It has no brain and no soul, but it can walk around and pick things up; it can do stuff for you. That's a corporation. It can do stuff for you.

Except unlike a robot, a corporation has no actual form. No body. No robot hands or robot feet. So if you can visualize a robot that has no mechanical parts, you're close to mastering the concept. A corporation is an entity. What is an entity? It's a thing. What is a thing? It's an entity.

Welcome to the world of law.

A corporation is an entity that you cannot touch. It is neither inherently good nor inherently evil, but it has a life of its own, and if the batteries are good, that robot can live on after you and your friends are dead and gone. Sometimes that can be a problem. Originally corporations in America were not meant to outlive their creators. Today they do.

One of the biggest problems with a corporation is that under the law, a corporation is actually considered a “person.” That's why it is often defined as a legal fiction. That is, this “person” is legal, but he isn't real. It's a fictional person. It isn't flesh and blood. It has no soul.

And that's the rub. Although it is treated like one, a corporation is not a human being, and usually no real live person within a corporation can be legally held responsible for the harm a corporation might do. The corporation can be fined, but that fine is usually absorbed by the stockholders. The board member's salaries remain sacrosanct.

Indeed, the directors of a corporation can, in a way, transfer their sins to the corporation, which will absorb them without much consequence. In the words of the British Baron Edward Thurlow, the problem with corporations is “they have no soul to save, nor body to incarcerate.”

Most tellingly, a corporation is not something that can stand accountable before God. So if you believe in the doctrine of personal accountability, you can see the crack in the plan right there.

The American colonists were particularly leery of corporations because England's East India Company had in many ways become more powerful than England herself, and was a prime instigator behind England's imperialist ambitions.

When our country was young, there were very few corporations in existence here; when one did appear, it was for the purpose of accomplishing something monumental. Charters were granted for a specific purpose and always for a limited time. The construction of the Erie Canal is one example of the granting of an early American corporation. When the canal was finished being built, the founding corporation expired, as all corporations were meant to.

Corporations certainly weren't the common mode of doing business that they are now. And as far as churches went, incorporation was simply not done, as a corporation derives its existence and all of its power from the state.

Since Jesus Christ is the head of the church, it would be incompatible for a church to petition the government for permission to exist. The church, as Paul taught, is the body of Christ. His laws, principles, and directions. It is not subject to man's laws. No Christian pastor in colonial times would have thought to place his church under political control.
 
As the Supreme Court explained in the case of Hale v. Hinkle:

"A corporation is a creature of the state...It receives certain special privileges and franchises and holds them subject to the laws of the state and the limitation of its charter. Its powers are limited by law. It can make no contract not authorized by its charter. Its rights to act as a corporation are only preserved to it so long as it obeys the laws of its creation. There is a reserved right in the legislature to investigate its contracts and ascertain if it has exceeded its powers" (Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43)

"Corporate existence,” according to Roberson's Business Law, “is a privilege granted by the sovereign upon compliance with specified conditions."

So that's a problem for any church that gets a hankering to incorporate, because in the church, Jesus Christ is supposed to be the sovereign. When application is made to incorporate a church, the will of Jesus Christ becomes subordinate to the will of the state. "For a church to become a corporation,” goes the maxim, “in effect divorces the church from Christ.”

All of this incorporating of churches is unnecessary in America anyway, because churches automatically operate in a sphere separate from the state. Governments have no jurisdiction in the church whatsoever. There is no tax advantage for a church to incorporate, as some mistakenly believe. But there is if that “Church” actually wants to operate as a business. Then it can trade its sovereignty in exchange for special privileges granted by the government.

Which is what the President of what used to be the LDS church did in 1923. 
 
How We Waived Our Sovereignty

Back in 1887, the church found itself in a famous staring contest with the federal government, and our side blinked. The United States Congress punished us by dissolving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and seizing all of its assets, including the Salt Lake temple and all of temple square.

Whether the government actually had the authority to do all this is a question for another time, but in 1890 the Supreme Court upheld the dissolution, and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as a legal entity, simply ceased to exist. We had to do a lot of serious butt-kissing just to get our stuff back, but there was no question that the church itself was not returning any time soon. At least not in any form Joseph Smith would have recognized. Or Jesus Christ, for that matter.

Serving God And Mammon

Although a corporation is a person without a soul, corporations do retain at least one characteristic of a real person. Just like you and me, they tend to want to continue to exist. For most corporations, staying alive means bringing in money. Continually.

Which brings us back to Dr. Daymon Smith. For as Smith points out, it wasn't so much polygamy that brought the ire of the nation down upon the heads of the Mormons. That was just the cover story fed to the masses back east to stir up the public, much as the government today keeps the populace in fear of cave-dwelling boogie men in order to justify its adventures overseas and its abrogations here at home.  

Did you really think that President Buchanan would send the United States Army half-way across the desert to stop a handful of hick farmers from sleeping with extra women?

No, the problem with the Mormons, as Daymon Smith reminds us, was “their theocratic control over politics, economics, and resources in the west.” This uppity Mormon empire was becoming a viable threat to the Eastern banking establishment, railroad tycoons, and ambitious politicians.

But you can't send out the army because the Eastern money men don't like competition. So you get the press to stir up the American people against those scary-bad polygamists and before long you have America demanding the army go and put a stop to this barbarism. Let's show those desert-dwelling rubes they can't thumb their noses at Uncle Sam!

The fact is, the Mormon church by the 1880's was becoming an economic force to be reckoned with. Not only was it threatening the Eastern money men, it was also threatening the peace within the church, as members of the Twelve argued constantly among themselves about -you guessed it- money.

The Twelve Apostles were now much too busy to to go forth throughout the world and spread the good news of Christ. They had to stay home and spend all their time managing literally hundreds of church owned businesses. It was virtually impossible by this time to find where the division lay between ecclesiastical and monetary interests. Apparently God himself couldn't help getting in on the action, as He kept coming up with hot investment tips to pass on to his servants. According to historian Michael Quinn:

"In1870 Brigham Young publicly announced a revelation for Mormons to invest in a railroad. In 1881 John Taylor privately dictated a revelation to organize an iron company, and in 1883 another revelation to invest tithing funds in a gold mine. In the 1890's the hierarchy gave certain men the religious 'calling' or obligation to invest thousands of dollars each in a sugar company.”
This focus on the financial over the spiritual was starting to take its toll on the Church. Brigham Young, Jr. felt it had all gone too far. “There is too much time given to Corporations, stocks, bonds, policies, etc. by our leaders to please me,” he wrote in his diary, “We are in all kinds of business interests. Even the members of the Twelve represent businesses which are jealous of each other and almost ready to fight each other.”

How I Love Ya, How I Love Ya, My Dear Old Mammon

After the bust-up of 1890, and after bowing and scraping to their government masters so that they could retain some of their assets, the Church hierarchy eventually made peace with Babylon. As the saying goes, “If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.”

With only a hint of exaggeration, Daymon Smith cheekily summarizes the situation:
"No longer members of any legally recognized religion, Mormons organized a focus group to re-brand their identity. So they called around to some California railroad lobbyists, New York ad-men, and brainstormed and out-paradigm-shifted a totally innovational re-branding of Mormonism.”
"The Trustee thus offered bonds to Eastern bankers with the promised collateral being the Mormons themselves."
The Mormon people, you see, had untapped value: a sense of community, a uniquely productive work ethic, and best of all, a built-in propensity to be obedient to authorities.
These Mormons were made to order. The Mormon leaders offered up the future tithes of the Mormon people as guarantees against their investments. The members of what used to be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be unwitting cash cows for the benefit of their leaders. And the leaders of what used to be that church were now climbing into bed with the whore of Babylon.

Catholic Pope, Meet The Mormon Pope

Some time around 1900, the office of Trustee-in-Trust was reformed, then a few years later the financial interests of the "Church" were protected under the “Corporation of the Presiding Bishop.” Finally in 1923, church lawyers found The Holy Grail: a rare, little known, and hardly ever used mode of incorporation known as The Corporation Sole.

Virtually unknown in America, and tracing its origins to ancient Roman law, the corporation sole was the way the vast riches of the Holy Catholic Church had been protected under Emperor Constantine. All financial power was vested in one man -in their case the pope, in our case, the prophet.

Or, as he was named in the corporate charter, “the President.” The word “Prophet” doesn't appear in the charter. This wasn't a real church, after all. It was just a way for the leadership of the, ahem, "Church” (wink, wink) to control the member's money.

In the original LDS church from the time of Joseph Smith, all members were considered of equal worth. They were called “members” because in the ancient church the scriptures called them “members of the body of Christ.” All parts were of equal importance to the Lord. You know the words of Paul in 1st Corinthians 12: “The head cannot say to the feet, I have no need of you.”

Likewise church property bought with member's tithing was considered held in common by all the members of the church, with common consent required for the purchase or disbursement of that common property.

But not anymore. Under the corporation sole, the head could tell the feet to go take a hike. The president of the church could do whatever the hell he wanted with the member's money without asking permission from the members whatsoever. It's spelled out right there in the charter. The president of the corporation needs no authorization from any mere member of the Lord's church. No show of hands, no vote, no “all in favor please manifest.” Like the Pope, his power is absolute. He is the Sole Brother.

Also written into the charter of the Corporation of the President as amended was how the line of succession was to operate within the Church. In order for there to be no question as to who held the purse strings following the death of the president (the “Sole” in a ”Sole Corporation”), the Senior Apostle automatically becomes the next president of the Corporation.

You thought somehow God maneuvered certain chosen men into these callings over the years so that they would one day be at the head of the line at the exact moment when God was ready to call them as the next prophet? You are so naïve.

The line of succession is outlined in the state approved charter. God's will isn't mentioned anywhere in it.

Systemic Within The Body

Now, I don't want to leave you with the impression that I see the general authorities of the Church as a group of sinister businessmen gleefully rubbing their hands together plotting their next takeover.

Far from it. I believe those men take very seriously their commitment to doing good works. They try very hard to be worthy of their responsibilities, and I'm positive they pray for guidance daily. With the obvious exception of Boyd K. Packer, none of these men is inherently evil. On the contrary, most of them are exceptionally good and fine men.

As Paul James Toscano has said, individually the general authorities of the Church are fine and wonderful people. “The problem,” he says, “is that when they get together, they act like a corporation.”

Exactly. It's not so much the people within the system, it is the system itself. This Church is a corporation. It is chartered as a corporation, and it behaves like a corporation. Before they were called to their positions of leadership within the Church, most of these men made their livings as lawyers and businessmen in the corporate world. Not in the last hundred years can I think of an actual theologian who has been invited to join their ranks. They are in these positions because the talents and skills they developed on the outside are needed on the inside.

When each of them came aboard to serve in this corporation, even though they believe it is ecclesiastical in nature, they soon learned that things are run here very much the way things were run in the corporate world they left.

Thus, the areas that the corporate Church tends to focus on are, by and large, the same things any corporation lends its attention to: Growth, Image, and Control.

Especially damage control to its image. Notice that in the early LDS church, the spokesman for the church was called a Prophet. Today the press is continually quoting a “church spokesman” who turns out to be someone from the Public Relations Department.

That is how a corporation works. It is not what we expect from a church that claims Jesus Christ as its head. If Jesus Christ was still the head of this church, He would have his spokesman speak for His church, not some flunky from the PR department whose job it is to act as a buffer to protect the prophet from embarrassment. 
 
You can hear several hours of interviews with Daymon Smith over at Mormon Stories Podcasts where he discusses the history of correlation, how the corporate ChurchTM struggles to serve both God and Mammon, and more on the transformation from church of Christ to corporate hybrid.

You can find his doctoral dissertation here, and over at By Common Consent there is a nine part discussion with Smith on the history of correlation that starts here.

I can't stress the importance of these materials strongly enough. If you lack a knowledge of the changes wrought in the church through correlation and corporate influence, your understanding of Mormon history in the twentieth century is woefully incomplete and innacurate. It's as simple as that.
 
PostScript

I wanted to include the following information in the essay above, but the piece was already so long I didn't have the heart to put you readers through a longer stretch.

But I did not want to leave unanswered the question some may have of how a church ostensibly guided by Jesus Christ himself could have been dissolved by a government entity. What possible claim of jurisdiction could the government have over any independent church?

Where it may be argued that the federal government might have had the right to seize church property since that property was situated on federal lands (until Utah became a state, it did not have autonomy separate from federal authority), that theory of law certainly does not extend to the dissolution of a sovereign church of Christ.

The answer is that the church hadn't been sovereign since 1829. Although the restored church existed prior to April 6th, 1830 (There were three branches and over seventy baptized members prior to that time), it was on that date that Joseph Smith unwittingly petitioned the state of New York for permission to form a church under the laws of New York State. Clearly he did not understand what he was doing; it's likely that he saw this action as akin to an announcement that a new denomination was hereby established. But what the government giveth, the government taketh away, and any act of incorporation takes a church out of the jurisdiction of God and places it smack dab into the backyard of Babylon. And Babylon does what it wishes.

Here is an excerpt from David Whitmer's account at the inception:
In this month (June 1829) I was baptized, confirmed, and ordained an Elder in the Church of Christ by Bro. Joseph Smith. Previous to this, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had baptized, confirmed and ordained each other to the office of an Elder in the Church of Christ. I was the third person baptized into the church. In August, 1829, we began to preach the gospel of Christ. The following six Elders had then been ordained: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, Samuel H. Smith, Hyrum Smith and myself. The Book of Mormon was still in the hands of the printer, but my brother, Christian Whitmer, had copied from the manuscript the teachings and doctrine of Christ, being the things which we were commanded to preach. We preached, baptized and confirmed members into the Church of Christ, from August, 1829, until April 6th, 1830, being eight months in which time we had proceeded rightly; the offices in the church being Elders, Priests and Teachers.
Now, when April 6, 1830, had come, we had then established three branches of the “Church of Christ,” in which three branches were about seventy members: One branch was at Fayette, N. Y.; one at Manchester, N. Y., and one at Colesville, Pa. It is all a mistake about the church being organized on April 6, 1830, as I will show. We were as fully organized–spiritually–before April 6th as we were on that day. The reason why we met on that day was this; the world had been telling us that we were not a regularly organized church, and we had no right to officiate in the ordinance of marriage, hold church property, etc., and that we should organize according to the laws of the land. On this account we met at my father’s house in Fayette, N. Y., on April 6, 1830, to attend to this matter of organizing according to the laws of the land; you can see this from Sec. 17 Doctrine and Convenants: the church was organized on April 6th “agreeable to the laws of our country.” (An Address to All Believers in Christ, pg 32-34)
 Indeed, the Lord defined His church in D&C 10:67, showing that it was already in existence at least since 1828. There was no need to “organize” something that was already extant. Joseph's act of registering with the state was a slow poison that proved fatal to his creation sixty years later.

And if you haven't already figured it out, no government actually has the power to dissolve the Church of Christ. All they did was kill a corporate version of it. The true Church of Christ is present “where two or three are are gathered together” in his name (Matt 18:20), and “whosoever repenteth and come unto me, the same is my church.” (D&C 10:67)

 



TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon
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To: mrreaganaut

Legal ping. Input?


41 posted on 12/02/2010 1:39:35 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Normandy
"I see a bright future."

Apparently, so did your Corporate President; the thing is, though, that only those on the upper levels of the Multi-Level Marketing scheme make the big bucks. Downline shmucks have blind faith in making it big, but there's a big difference between seeing a bright future and having one.

42 posted on 12/02/2010 3:00:07 PM PST by mrreaganaut (ThereÂ’s only one solution to the problem of government incompetence, and thatÂ’s more government. /)
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To: reaganaut

It is an interesting perspective. I assume that the author belongs to one of the “fundamentalist” Mormon sects. Legally, he seems to be claiming that churches ought not be recognized by the state as legal entities; however, it’s more of a theological claim than a legal one. Church buildings and graveyards must belong to someone or something for property tax purposes, for example. I suppose that individual members could keep title rather than gifting land to an under-the-radar church, but most people in America like the stability of the Congregational/corporate model. Whether those people are theologically correct is not a legal question.


43 posted on 12/02/2010 3:49:40 PM PST by mrreaganaut (See the wild curelom herds at Zion National Park!)
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To: mrreaganaut

“I assume that the author belongs to one of the ‘fundamentalist’ Mormon sects.”

Sheesh! Doesn’t anybody click on the original post anymore?

I’m the writer of the piece under discussion, and aligned with mainstream LDS. You’ll find, however, that I am not in thrall to the Brethren nor their constant bleating for obeisance.

Webheart, I emphasize with your frustration regarding all the italicizing, bolding, and increasing of the font size of my article. Although I understand Greyfox’s motivation for emphasizing certain points (and I appreciate him for reposting it!), those emphases are his, not mine. So Elsie, no need to put my words back into a word processor and straighten them all out again. You’ll find my post in it’s original form quite readable here, complete with a snappy portrait of Jesus as the Corporate Man:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-corporatism-has-undermined-and.html

Also, note that Greyfox did not post the entire article; in fact, my piece wasn’t called “The Vanishing LDS Church.” That was just a subtitle of one section. The full piece is titled “How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ.”

In there I have already addressed Mr. Reaganaut’s concerns about how a church can function absent corporation.

The very question is evidence of how thoroughly Americans have come to accept the premise that no business can function without being incorporated. Prior to the 20th century romance for such status, people did just fine as regular businesses, sole proprietors, partnerships, or simply companies.

Many churches today have come to the realization that they have been conned into thinking incorporation was necessary, and there is a rush now to dis-incorporate. You might want to ask those churches how they manage to pay their employees and engage in commerce with suppliers. They are able to do so because they operate as a church, an independent entity that does not seek permission from the State for its existence. They seem to be functioning just fine, as churches always did before America went corporate crazy a hundred years ago.

I would remind Mr. Reaganaut by the way, that churches don’t pay property taxes. At least those not subject to Caesar.

You can’t claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.


44 posted on 01/15/2011 10:57:32 AM PST by Rockwaterman
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To: Rockwaterman; Elsie; webheart; greyfoxx39

Courtesy ping to FReepers mentioned in your reply, that weren’t pinged.

Btw, thanks for bumping the thread...


45 posted on 01/15/2011 11:06:00 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Rockwaterman

I’m sorry, I clicked on the link to the book at Amazon. I apologize for assuming by the harshness of your (apparently excerpted) article that you were not mainstream LDS. I do agree that incorporation is immaterial to the purposes of the Church.


46 posted on 01/15/2011 3:27:00 PM PST by mrreaganaut (See the Gadianton Robbers' Hideout at Zion National Park!)
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To: Rockwaterman; SZonian; mrreaganaut
Welcome to FR, Mr. Waterman.

As you stated in your article, "I wanted to include the following information in the essay above, but the piece was already so long I didn't have the heart to put you readers through a longer stretch."......the excerpt I DID post is quite long, thus the emphasis on certain points. As I explained, a lot of readers are inclined to see a long post and rather than wade through it, will move on. I feel that the information you have made available is of interest to the readers of the mormon threads.

As to the "meat" of the article, I pull this quote from you...You can’t claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.

I'm sure I am speaking for many when I change it just a little.."You can’t claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist answer to a leadership consisting of businessmen and attorneys and a "prophet" who requires a "sustaining vote".

Council on the Disposition of the Tithes

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Council on the Disposition of the Tithes (also known as the Council on the Disposition of Tithing) is a leadership body in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, composed of the First Presidency, the Presiding Bishopric, and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The Council determines how the tithing funds of the church will be spent. The Council oversees revenue, investments and expenditures valued at billions of dollars per year.

While the Church employs an independent auditing department which provides an annual report to the Church[1], it has not published full financial reports since 1959.

The Council was established by church founder Joseph Smith, Jr. on 8 July 1838.[2] As of April 2009, the members of the Council are:

I invite you to stick around and join in the discussion here. We welcome new voices to the debate.

47 posted on 01/15/2011 5:20:36 PM PST by greyfoxx39 ("Journalists" see no problem with fueling a mass panic over our "political discourse.")
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To: greyfoxx39

48 posted on 01/15/2011 7:25:10 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
For a different take on church incorporation, I recommend Baptist Legal Update: Should Churches Be Incorporated?

It ain't vanishing as much as it is fragmenting...


 
 

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.


49 posted on 01/15/2011 7:27:47 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Normandy
I see a lot of strength, unity, conviction and love.

Yup; I'll go along with that conviction thing.

We see them being CONVICTED and sent to jail for white collar crime at a rate that is disporportionate for their numbers.

50 posted on 01/15/2011 7:29:34 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Saundra Duffy
 

The anti Mormons can go on their merry way spreading these horrible threads but it mattereth not.




Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.


They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

51 posted on 01/15/2011 7:31:17 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Normandy
 
 Yes, it’s a legal structure set up the laws of man, but the Church operates in the secular environment and has to deal with the laws of the lands in which it is organized. That doesn’t in my mind invalidate in any way its divine mandate.
Oh?  I'll bet the MORMON god will have something to say to those who has abandoned his Eternal Covenant of POLYGAMY found in D&C 132!
 



Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages,
which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort,
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws,
and to use my influence with the members of the Church
over which I preside to have them do likewise.
 
Wilford Woodruff

President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
September 24th, 1890

52 posted on 01/15/2011 7:33:58 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39

Oh, I don’t fault you at all for not excerpting more of my piece, Greyfox. It is most certainly very long, and as you mention, even the part you excerpted is looooong. Conciseness is not one of my better traits.

I hope nothing I said led you to think I was critical of your offering the excerpt, and I do understand your motivation for highlighting certain lines. But when I saw Elsie’s recommendation that it be put into a word processor and straightend out, I felt a mention of where it could be found would be helpful. I’m very grateful to you for plugging it.

(That piece, by the way, has had an astonishing run, getting more than 11,000 hits in its first twelve days and thousands more since, so I do believe Daymon Smith’s research has hit a chord with a lot of people.)

Thanks for the welcome. I was an early reader of FR, but parted ways during the Bush administration because I’m a traditional conservative (constitutionalist)and FR seemed to have skewed heavily toward a Neocon philosophy in those days.

I concur completely with your reworking of my quote above. And MrReaganaut, I’m not at all upset with you, either. Happy to have stumbled onto this forum and happy to be aboard with you, mates.


53 posted on 01/16/2011 1:25:44 AM PST by Rockwaterman
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To: Elsie

Just as a point of interest, Elsie, during my research on my piece about polygamy I had some conversations with the authors of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy, who are former Reorgs but refuse to affiliate with the newly formed Community of Christ.

Pamela Price told me there are thousands of former Reorgs unhappy with the change, and particularly miffed that the CofC retains the rights to the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically to prevent those dissidents from claiming affiliation with that name. There’s some real bad feelings between traditional Reorgs and the Community of Christ. Gets their blood boiling just talking about it.


54 posted on 01/16/2011 1:25:47 AM PST by Rockwaterman
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To: Rockwaterman
But when I saw Elsie’s recommendation that it be put into a word processor and straightend out, I felt a mention of where it could be found would be helpful. I’m very grateful to you for plugging it.

Actually, my suggestion was to WEBHEART, who seemed to find annoying the usage of various typographical mannerisms that make certain words and ideas standout from the REST!!

(I took it a bit PERSONAL! myself.)

55 posted on 01/16/2011 5:20:17 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: webheart
It takes away from the credibility of the author, and makes him look like a kook.

I resemble that REMARK!!

56 posted on 01/16/2011 5:22:32 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rockwaterman
Interesting info about the CoC and Reorgs.

I encourage you to post sections of "How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ" here that were not included in my thread and/or new thoughts you may have about the subject.

I left the mormon church in the sixties, so the organization I knew has changed so much that I hardly recognize it since "correlation".

57 posted on 01/16/2011 7:34:42 AM PST by greyfoxx39 ("Journalists" see no problem with fueling a mass panic over our "political discourse.")
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To: greyfoxx39

bttt


58 posted on 01/16/2011 6:57:15 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

bttt


59 posted on 01/17/2011 4:07:59 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39
I take it that some critics have not read the Book of MORMON!

I started reading a paragraph and found it both humorous and very insightful, but the sentences were likewise extremely long. The entire book reads like this. Also, I'm well educated but I needed a dictionary frequently while reading this book. There were a few words in other languages tossed in as well. While reading, I didn't feel like getting up to go use an internet translator, so I missed a bit of the meaning at times. Overall, this book will require commitment if you're going to finish it. This book begins by explaining that it has been written by the author's evil twin, who has a very verbose and irritating writing style. True to these promises, the book was overly verbose- sometimes to the point of being quite painful- and some sections were difficult to understand due to the writing style. The style for the first several pages, with the computer plot, was so difficult that this section was almost impossible to follow. After that it improved somewhat. I found myself reading like an editor and identifying on nearly every page changes that could have been made that would have preserved the quirky style while making the book much more readable. I think the author would probably say that limited readability was often his intent, however, I got the sense that there were some areas in which there was less readability than he intended.

Samuel Clemens did!

All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few, except the elect have seen it or at least taken the trouble to read it.
I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me.
It is such a pretentious affair and yet so slow, so sleepy, such an insipid mess of inspiration.
It is chloroform in print.
 
 
http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/




 
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
 
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
 
 
 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
  5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
  16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
  24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
  34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.


60 posted on 11/07/2011 3:17:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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