Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
To that I will agree...too bad catholics need Romes permission on what they should or not believe His word says though. And that is where we differ. I don't need Rome or the Pope and neither does anyone else IF they have Christ Jesus. He alone IS the truth...not a church or it's leadership...the church is and remains the body of believers and they attend various churches....Christ alone is the head.
No, the original five are all trumped by the Sixth Sola that haunts Protestantism; "That which I alone choose to believe is sufficient".
There is nothing in the bible that indicates Sola Scriptura.
2 Thessalonians 2:15:
Quote:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 3:6:
Quote:
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
1 Corinthians 11:2:
Quote:
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
John 21:25:
Quote:
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
The Catholic Church doesn’t claim the false Sola Scriptura. Tradition and Scripture comprise Christianity handed down through 2000+ years.
Indeed, and often reflect more local taste than theology.
Did any of them belie she was completely sinless worthy of prayer?
Yes indeed it does oppose what Christ teaches. He is the only mediater and clearly stated so...catholics use many others than Him....They confess to a man Priest...when we are to confess to Christ...they pray to departed people...we are to make petitions to Christ alone...they see Mary as co-equal to Christ...He said He is the way, and the truth and no one can come to the father but by Him. So yes indeed they oppose Christ's teachings.
The root problem is the loss of the Communion of Saints for some outside the Church. Many still "believe" it by saying the creed, however what Communion of Saints means in the creeds has been lost. And with it full knowledge of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Until this is returned, intercessory prayer by the Saints in Heaven is incomprehensible.
Some, however, try to reduce the Word to words. Sola scriptura and bibliolatry.
Would it be fair to say then, that when making an act of submission regarding doubtful propositions, the one to whom you submit is...you?
"Infallibility means more than exemption from actual error; it means exemption from the possibility of error," P. J. Toner, Infallibility
And when RC apologists hedge and say the pope is "only infallible in matters of faith and religion," our response is "who cares what a pope believes about the weather in Australia or how badly the Bears played last week?" The only reason to listen to a religious leader is for his opinions on...religion.
So it is the height of arrogance and deceit to believe any man but Christ is "infallible" in anything, but ESPECIALLY in "matters of religion and faith."
This idiotic "infallibility" is what compels Rome to heap error upon error by believing its priestcraft to be an "alter Christus," - "another Christ."
The wedding at Cana:
“”Do whatever he tells you.” Jesus orders the six water jars used for rites of purification to be filled with water. This He changes into wine and then directs that the wine be drawn out and taken to the chief steward. The latter, not knowing whence the wine came, regards it of superior quality, remarking that, contrary to custom, the bridegroom has not served the good wine first but reserved it till the last.”
Mary’s words are. “Do whatever HE tells you.” She isn’t commanding anything. Mary follows and points to Christ.
Her request was granted not as the simple request of a mother, but granted on the basis of faith in the Divine Son.
It’s a simple and very humble prayer and confidence. A prayer which contains FAITH, SIMPLICITY, HUMILITY and CONFIDENCE which is what a prayer should contain. She didn’t ask him to turn the water into wine. She simply asked the attendants to DO whatever HE SAYS.
Doing whatever God says is the answer to our prayers. Asking is one thing, receiving the answer from God even when it is not what we expect, and having the confidence and faith to accept His answer is what Mary is doing and what we must do in prayer.
“The evangelist concludes the narrative with the words: “This first of his signs Jesus worked at Cana of Galilee; and he manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.”
Mary always in everything points to her Son, Christ.
No, the height of arrogance and conceit is the belief that the sacred Calvinist trinity of me, myself, and I are uniquely infallible and sola dufus for judging the meaning and entirety of the Revealed Word and the legitimacy of the dogma of Christians.
It gets so old, Catholics praying to Mary, Catholics idol worship to Mary, to the Saints. Old old old. As Catholics we DO NOT worship Mary as does any rite in the Catholic church. I love Saint John the Baptist and Jesus had wonderful things to say about him, his moral courage in standing up against the sinfulness of a particular politician even to the point of death was because John was courageous because he was NOT corrupted like so many clergymen today. I wish we had more men like him. Mary is yet another to pray with and to be honored because GOD first honored her. Not everything our Lord did and said was in Holy Scriptures because as it said there would have to have been too too many books to contain all he said and did. We are blessed by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For those who do not recognize the love of Mary it is the love Christ has for all of us and we are to have for one another especially for someone like Mary, we are to love. The Sacred Liturgy is the example of the worship of our Lord that is best to show our Catholic Faith, with the power of the Holy Spirit. Mary is compared to the Ark of the new Covenant, http://vivechristusrex2000.blogspot.com/2009/06/blessed-mother-ark-of-new-covenant.html
I am also a Catholic convert and I also had a problem with Mary only because so many people told me it was wrong but we all have a personal journey with Christ to follow. I was arrogant, full of myself. If our Lord had favor with Mary then so shall I, she only makes me love him more because she raised him, loved him and grieved him. It’s just not a story in the Bible it’s a real family of our Lord’s, it’s personal,it’s who we belong to, she was the mother of our Lord. How many times should we thank her? For some of us we understand her grieving losing Jesus to a torturous death because we too lost someone we love. I love her not over our Lord but because he loved her. I think it’s hard to understand Divine Love, the way Christ loved because too much of the time Holy Scriptures is used for debating and we forget how much it’s all about the Divine Love of God, teaching us how to love as he did, which can be too difficult for so many of us. So I love Mary just as our Lord did first.
"That God's word damns your ceremonies it is evident; for the plain and straight commandment of God is, 'Not that thing which appears good in thy eyes shalt thou do to the Lord thy God, but what the Lord thy God has commanded thee; that do thou; add nothing to it; diminish nothing from it.' Now unless you are able to prove that God has commanded your ceremonies, this his former commandment will damn both you and them." -- John Knox (Knox, Works, 1:199. Cf. Calvin, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, in Tracts, 1:128-29.)
Nothing's stopping you from praying to Mary. It just seems a little redundant (at least to me).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're praying, you've got a direct connection via the Holy Spirit to God the Father and the Son. When you pray, you're talking to the big guy himself.
So, when we confess at the beginning of mass, and "ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, to pray for me to the Lord our God", we're basically asking God to tap Mary on the shoulder and tell her to talk to God. Why ask God to ask Mary to ask God? Why not just ask God, directly?
This one bugs me. Can somebody explain it to me? Thanks.
P.S. This one is right up there with not being able to understand people when they "speak in tongues". It's basically indicates to me that the Holy Spirit is not in the room.
How Christ accomplishes the mediation is His choice.
“Jesus then breathed on the apostles.” The only other time God did this was to give life to Adam. Breathing on the Apostles was an extraordinary occurance and only happened twice in history.
John 20 :22-23 “ And when he had said this, he breathed on them [the apostles], and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
“”Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” —Matthew 16:17-19
The Apostalic succession is very real and there is definitely a hierarchy that is established in this passage.
See, unlike Rome, the OPC and other Protestant denominations actually DO know what the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ means.
And that Good News is spoken of in John 3:16 and hundreds of other Scriptural passages and is reiterated in the "Five Solas of the Reformation."
It's not surprising that Roman Catholics would have a difficult time recognizing this fact since so many of them cannot tell us what the Gospel is.
You may have (finally) pointed us to John 3:16 as your answer to the question of what is the Gospel of Christ, but you have yet to tell us why you believe this.
What does John 3:16 mean to a Roman Catholic?
Really?
Luther had the following to say:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Well?
I asked your tag team partner the same question but he appears to have bailed on me, so I'll repeat it to you; are you happy to sign off on Luther's statement?
All those blasphemies were heaped on Mary by the papacy. They belong to Rome alone.
Like calling Mary "The Mother of God" as Luther did?
Did you miss that part?
Would that be a "blasphemy", too?
Luther the blasphemer?
Really?
Luther had a lot of learning to undo.
ROFL............poor Luther!!
Uh.........maybe many of the current miasma of "churches" have now gone so far off the rails as to be unrecognizable to a man like Luther, thus necessitating condescending drivel such as yours. Maybe the "reform" has progressed to such a point as to have completely lost touch with its original intent and now espouses every heresy imaginable, including many never even dreamed of by Luther!
Who cares what Albert Mohler (who?) thinks??
I'll be posting plenty of articles in the coming days and weeks which show clearly what the Church Fathers thought of Mary and the world will be to clearly see how far removed tripe like yours is from the thoughts of those who studied at the feet of the Apostles and who helped to build the early Church.
Enjoy!
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