Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Agreed. Luther and Calvin like the Pope are humans and are known to error, which is precisely why we hold the Bible as truth.
That’s a trick question. :-)
There is a difference between praying for someone and praying to Mary (who is in Heaven) to intercede for you. The first one is clearly biblical but the later is not.
Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
I've heard the phrase "more Catholic than the Pope".
Would this be an example of "more Protestant than Luther"?
“The whole issue of purgatory”
What’s your take on 1 Cor 3:13 which states that on the day of judgment our works will be tested by fire? And those who’s works perish will escape, but only as one escaping through the flames?
“confession of sins to a Priest”
Christ says to Peter in Matthew 16:19
“Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound on heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed to heaven.”
Christ clearly gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins. This is why priests, as the successors of the Apostles can do the same.
“One true faith” gets a little old at times.
Do you believe that Christ would abandon his faithful for 1500 years?
Oh boy.....here comes the Mary Defamers and the Catholic haters.....and so near Christmas!!
“Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brethren, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Does this mean the same thing?
These Protestant Reformers do not agree with you at all -- they believed in the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Also -- one Catholic viewpoint.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
The Protestant Reformers on the Virgin Mary
Zwingli’s’ Mariology: On Mary “Full of Grace”
You said intercession. We are commanded to pray for one another, and we can ask Mary, who is in heaven, to pray for us, just as I can pray for you, or you can pray for me. This is all that is meant by intercession.
You are very right that we are not to pray TO Mary, but we can ask her to pray for us sinners, which is exactly what Catholics do when they pray the Rosary.
“Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death, Amen.”
Where does one go after they fall away from even being a Methodist?
Your tagline is inspirational. Thanks for the reminder.
Show me in the Bible, where we can ask people *in* Heaven to pray for us and I will concede the point.
* Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”
* Matthew 12:46-47 - “While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
* Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
* Mark 6:2-3 - “And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
* John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
* Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
* 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
* Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother.”
Show me in the Scripture where there is a perpetual penalty box, where one must sit until an outside force determines you may either ascend to Heaven or descend to Hell. (Unless of course, your friends and family contribute enough money for you to catch the express train out)
I’ll see you Matthew and raise you a Timothy.
1 Tim. 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Christ never abandoned his faithful, the RCC chose to go with its own version of events rather than the Scripture.
Thanks...Have a Blessed Christmas!!
Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
Matthew 17:4
I have certainly been in the boat you’re floating, for several decades, so I do get it. It is a mystery isn’t it, who succombs and who will not, and who is drawn and who is not? I agree that the Catholic Church is not the broad road, one of near entire and unaccountable spiritual ease, comfort, and assurance, but Jesus never encouraged such a path so different from his own.
You are a gem for wishing me a blessed Christmas, and being a sport about your loss and my gain.
I catch the lip curling sneer in your question, Ann, but don’t have an answer at the moment.
The implication here is that somehow the perverted view of Mary held by the RCC is shared by those in the Reformation. Dream on, folks. And, once again, the believers in Jesus Christ, alone, dismiss, repudiate, disavow and expose this dangerous cult-like worship of Mary for what it is...heresy from Rome.
“Show me in the Scripture where there is a perpetual penalty box, where one must sit until an outside force determines you may either ascend to Heaven or descend to Hell.”
Isn’t that what it means when it says that our works will be tested by fire? Isn’t that sort of like a penalty box? You sit there until the works have been tested, and if you fail, you suffer and are cleansed by the fire.
“Unless of course, your friends and family contribute enough money for you to catch the express train out”
That’s a different issue, indulgences, not purgatory. You are quite right, that family and friends do not need to contribute anything for souls in purgatory in order for them to pass through. Which is what the Church teaches.
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.”
Is ‘mediator’ the same as ‘intercessor’? No. You are quite right that there is only one ‘mediator’, and that is Christ who gave Himself as a ransom.
Christ never abandoned his faithful, the RCC chose to go with its own version of events rather than the Scripture.
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