Posted on 12/26/2010 7:51:12 AM PST by Gamecock
Genesis 4 is scripture, and it shows God saying Cain had a choice - NOT that Cain was predestined, or ‘dead’ and unable to respond to God’s call.
Rev 3 has this: “ 15”’I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.”
Now, unless you are saying Jesus will spit Christians out of his mouth, rejecting them, then one has to conclude that what follows involves a choice by men, to accept or reject, to open or leave closed.
Nor do I torture Romans 8 & 9, or Ephesians 1.
Romans 8: “28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Those whom he foreknew he also predestined.
Romans 9 talks about the Jews as a group - although individual Jews will be saved, as a group they are set on the back burner for a time. Calvinists like to quote: “13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - but they forget that quote comes from Malachi, not Genesis, and applies to their tribes, not the individuals.
The passage of Romans 9-11 deals with the question raised in John 1: “11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.” Why? Why did the Chosen People reject Jesus?
Not as individuals, for many individual Jews were and are saved, but as a group.
You might want to take a close look in Ephesians 1 at the phrase “in him”. For it is in Christ, untied to him by thru faith, that we receive everything else:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us [in Christ] with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us [in him] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us [in the Beloved]. 7 [In him] we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth [in Christ] 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things [in him], things in heaven and things on earth.
11[In him] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope [in Christ] might be to the praise of his glory. 13[In him] you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
The order of salvation? “when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”.
The Holy Spirit does not irresistibly cause us to be born again, and then we believe. We receive the Holy Spirit by believing, as Peter preached: “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
Oh, and lest I forget, here is what Jesus proclaimed:
14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
If man could fulfill the law there would be no need for Christ, now would there?
repent and believe in the gospel.
And just who believes in the Gospel? Those who God causes to be born again, the elect.
You seem to have a problem with the term predestination. Predestination is found in Scripture. Free will, in the context of salvation, isn't.
Predestination, in scripture, describes what God has willed for those who believe.
Here are the 6 - SIX! - verses where it appears:
Act 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1Cr 2:7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Neither Acts nor 1 Cor is referring to the doctrine you proclaim, leaving 4 verses in 2 chapters.
“And just who believes in the Gospel? Those who God causes to be born again, the elect.”
Except that denies what scripture says, doesn’t it.
John 20: “and that by believing you may have life in his name.” Believing results in life, not life resulting in irresistible belief.
John 1: “12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Those who believe receive the right to become children of God, born by God’s will. Belief precedes birth.
“Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.”
Why rebuke them if belief is given and faith a gift from God? Who rebukes someone for not having enough of what he must first give them?
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Believes may have life, not whoever is given life will believe.
Jhn 7:38-39 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Belief first.
Jhn 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Is God a liar? For if Calvin is correct, and honest God would say, “Unless I chose you, you will continue to be dead in your sins.”
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
To those who believe, not to those I chose.
1Pe 2:6-7 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
Whosoever means whosoever, not some special people...
Do what?
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
We were adopted according to His will. Not ours.
Take off your Arminian glasses, it’s about God choosing, not us.
Do what?
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
We were adopted according to His will. Not ours.
Take off your Arminian glasses, it’s about God choosing, not us.
Ralph Waldo Emerson looks at it this way:
We grant that human life is mean; but how did we find out that it was mean? What is the ground of this uneasiness of ours; of this old discontent? What is the universal sense of want and ignorance, but the fine inuendo by which the soul makes its enormous claim?
Those in Christ are predestined.
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
If it is all about God choosing us, why did Jesus proclaim:
Mat 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mat 11:20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent.
Mar 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Mar 6:12 So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent.
Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
None of that is honest, if what God REALLY does is check to see if we're on the saved or unsaved list, and then irresistibly saves those on the first, and irresistibly damns those on the second.
"46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles." - Acts 13
Does it say God rejected them, or that THEY rejected the gospel?
Try Proverbs 1 & 2:
20 Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice; 21at the head of the noisy streets she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: 22"How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? 23If you turn at my reproof,behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you. 24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Find a passage that says we need to be born again so that we can believe, or that we were given life to believe. Find the passage that says we are saved by grace thru election, rather than grace thru faith.
Paul wrote, " 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." - Romans 5
Faith is what opens the door and allows us inside.
We ARE saved by the will of God. Man wants to win God's approval on his own, but he cannot. God has set the terms: repent and believe. Those who accept are predestined by God's will to become like Christ. But whosoever means just that. Whosoever believes is placed in Christ, and in Him, part of His body the church, we are given everything else.
No man can dictate the terms of his acceptance by God. No man can find God, unless God first reveals Himself. But God HAS revealed himself, and does, and we are responsible for our response to his revelation. The call to believe is real. Jesus wasn't mocking our inability. And refusal to believe will be judged, justly.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags........
Romans 3:10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Those who believe are given the right to become children of God. This is God's will, not man's. If you believe, then God gives you the right to be his child. It is God's plan of salvation, not man's.
Through His will, not their own.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Acts 13:48 - please note this is the only time that phrasing appears, and what else is noteworthy?
This is the first time the gospel is preached to the Gentiles. Peter went to the house of Cornelius in chapter 10: “1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.”
Note that this was before the conversion of Cornelius and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In chapter 11, Peter defends what he did. In chapter 12, the disciples are scattered.
In chapter 13, verses 13-47 are directed at the Jews in Antioch. But for the most part, the Jews reject the gospel, and in verses 46-47 we find:
“It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“’I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
THEN, in verse 48, the Gentiles rejoice, and for the first time in history, the gospel is preached openly to the Gentiles - and the Gentiles respond:
” 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
For the Gospel was not meant only for the Jews, but also had to go to the Gentiles - to all who were appointed to salvation.
If there were other passages saying that those appointed to eternal life believed, you would have a much stronger case. However, the ONLY time that I know of comes with the first proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the other sheep of Jesus.
Yes. Thru the will of God, whosoever believes shall be saved. "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God..."
God's doing and his plan, not man's.
On Romans 3 we agree. "For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin..." We are all sinners, and none of us deserve any good thing from God.
And Romans goes on:
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
Romans 9 has a particular subject:
1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. 6But it is not as though the word of God has failed.
Paul addresses a subject of great pain to him - the rejection of Jesus by the Jews. Not as individuals, for Paul is a Jew and he believes, but as a nation...or more accurately, as a tribe, the children of Abraham and Isaac.
Just as God chose the children of Jacob to be his chosen people, rather than the children of Esau (although individual descendants of Esau could join them, as could Gentiles even), God is now choosing to give life to the Gentiles.
“1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
But it will not last forever:
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Chapter 11)
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27”and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Again, this is speaking in generalities, for individual Jews will and are saved, and most Gentiles are still destined to hell.
But as individuals, Paul continues to affirm:
1For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Chapter 10)
That is too funny!
Amen - yes, we have free will, free will to choose evil or good. The PCA is now freeling choosing to ordain women deacons and also free will debates on Federal Vision.
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