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Aeiparthenos (An Anglo-Catholic Priest on Mary's Perpetual Virginity)
Fr. Hunwicke's Liturgical Notes ^ | 12/31/10 | Fr John Hunwicke SSC

Posted on 12/31/2010 8:33:04 AM PST by marshmallow

EVERVIRGIN has been a title of our Lady from the earliest days; it appears, albeit obiter, in the documents of councils from Chalcedon onwards. It still appears (confiteor; Communicantes) in the Novus Ordo Mass; was rather more frequent in the Classical Roman Rite; and comes very often in the Byzantine Rite. It is part of the Church's Marian dogma, and was treated respectfully, if rather evasively, by the ARCIC document on Mary. Non-Catholics sneer at it. The great Tom Wright is dismissive. Let us consider the question in the form of a Socratic Dialogue.

The Gospels make it quite clear that Jesus had brothers.

They don't. Adelphoi can mean kinsmen. It doesn't have to mean uterine (that is, born-of-the-same-womb) brothers.

So you say. But that's the obvious meaning if anyone talks about "Jesus' brothers" in any language, isn't it?

Not at all. Mark's and Matthew's Gospels, in their accounts of the Crucifixion, both talk about "Mary the mother of James and Joses [or Joseph]". If this Mary had been the same as Christ's own mother, it would have been very odd for them not to refer to her as the Mother of Jesus. The "obvious" and natural inference is that the "Mother of James and Joses" was a different Mary from "Mary the Mother of Jesus".

So what?

Well, in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55, the places where those "brothers of Jesus" are mentioned, the full text reads: " Jesus the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses [or Joseph] and Judas and Simon". We've just seen that this James and this Joses are apparently the sons of some Mary who was not the same as Mary the Mother of Jesus. And they're the first two on the list here. The list is thus clearly not itemising individuals who were uterine brothers of Jesus.

Well, I still think it's obvious that ...

If it's so "obvious", you've got some explaining to do. Throughout the second century the Gospels were increasingly regarded as 'canonical' and authoritative. If it is so "obvious" that James and the rest of those listed in the Gospels were uterine brothers of Jesus, then the tradition that Jesus was Mary's only child must have arisen well before those Gospels came to be regarded as authorities. Otherwise, when somebody started saying "she never had any more children", somebody who had read the Gospels would have said "Aha, you're wrong: here's a list of his brothers". So, if you're right about it being so "obvious", you're going to have to admit that Mary's perpetual virginity is so early a tradition as to predate the acquisition of authority by our Four Gospels; which modern scholarship dates to the beginning of the second century at the latest. I've got you either way.

That's all gobbledegook. It's obvious ...

That's the problem with you Prods and you Liberals. You're impervious to evidence and to reason.

Of course we are. "Reason is the Devil's Whore". Martin Luther said so. It's obvious.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
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1 posted on 12/31/2010 8:33:05 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

“That’s the problem with you Prods and you Liberals”

This is a trolling thread.


2 posted on 12/31/2010 8:37:21 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: marshmallow
The way I look at it is quite straightforward ~ and maybe even the correct way ~ the fundamental argument for "eternal virginity" is simply that Mary and Joseph were simply very, very, very serious people who were made moreso through Heavenly machination.

On the other hand, I take it they weren't as serious as some make them out to be, and had as much free will as any of us.

Presumably God could turn them into eternal virgins after they passed on to the great bye and bye!

3 posted on 12/31/2010 8:38:31 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

“That’s the problem with you Prods and you Liberals”

That’s the problem with Mary worshippers. Always trolling.


4 posted on 12/31/2010 8:38:34 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: marshmallow

Why is some perv so concerned about Mary’s perpetual virginity?


5 posted on 12/31/2010 8:38:57 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: marshmallow

Anyone care to articulate why I must believe Mary was forever virginal in order to believe in Jesus Christ? Why would Mary’s perpetual virginity or lack thereof have any bearing on whether someone is saved? Seriously, if it turns out Mary had a couple kids, would that actually shake your faith in Jesus Christ?


6 posted on 12/31/2010 8:41:38 AM PST by TexasAg
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
But you forgot the second half of the sentence! **You're impervious to evidence and to reason.**
7 posted on 12/31/2010 8:44:57 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: TexasAg

Do you believe Luther? Zwingli? Calvin? And many other Protestants?


8 posted on 12/31/2010 8:46:07 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: TexasAg
Aeiparthenos (An Anglo-Catholic Priest on Mary's Perpetual Virginity)
[Why I Am Catholic]: Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
The Protestant Reformers on the Virgin Mary
Zwingli’s’ Mariology: On Mary “Full of Grace”
9 posted on 12/31/2010 8:48:04 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Do you believe Luther? Zwingli? Calvin? And many other Protestants?

I believe the Bible. Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. Did she have other kids - I don't care. It affects my faith in Jesus not one bit.

So now answer my questions, please:
Must someone believe in Mary's perpetual virginity to be saved (in your opinion)?
If Mary wasn't forever virginal and had other kids, would that shake your faith in Jesus Christ?
10 posted on 12/31/2010 8:57:58 AM PST by TexasAg
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

> This is a trolling thread.

OK, it’s not just me, then.

It appears that Catholics are making a lot of posts in this forum looking for a fight, using demeaning language and disdain for any whose beliefs are not congruent to theirs.

Whyn’t y’all take your Catholic dogma to a Catholic website and have at it there? I’m sure there are plenty of them. Maybe you just like stirring the pot a bit, eh?

I was baptized, raised, catechised, and confirmed a Catholic.

Attended a Catholic high school. Was even member of a Marian club while there.

Was in the Newman club in college.

Studied Catholic dogma, was subject to all its indoctrination and rituals.

Jesus set me free from all that.

PRAISE THE LORD!!

(1st John 2:27, 2nd Cor 3:17, Gal 4:9-11, Gal 2:11, Eph 2:8-10, etc, etc, etc ...)


11 posted on 12/31/2010 8:59:31 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: TexasAg; goodwithagun
Anyone care to articulate why I must believe Mary was forever virginal in order to believe in Jesus Christ?

HERE is a good place to start.

13 posted on 12/31/2010 9:01:28 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Westbrook
Well aren't YOU just super-duper special!!!!
14 posted on 12/31/2010 9:08:39 AM PST by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: marshmallow

There was an article in the WSJ, yesterday about another Catholic hospital closing and the influence of Sister Keehan. This one was in Phoenix, AZ. Why don’t you do some posting on that?

I’ve been wondering if Sister Keehan is part of the Catholic liberation theology movement?


15 posted on 12/31/2010 9:14:33 AM PST by Eva
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To: starlifter

> Well aren’t YOU just super-duper special!!!

No moreso than you.

The Lord paid for my sins by his agony on the cross, just as He did for you.

Unless you come as a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Little children cannot parse all the arcane and byzantine minutiae of volumes doctrine. Such things appeal to the pride of man.
(Matt 18:3-14, Matt 23:11-12)


16 posted on 12/31/2010 9:16:11 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
This is a trolling thread.

The writer's viewpoint is expressed in the title. If you disagree, then don't click on the thread. Every church has a viewpoint that is different, no one gets to censor someone else. The Religion Forum rules can be found by clicking on the Religion Moderator's profile.

17 posted on 12/31/2010 9:31:09 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

The comments I referenced had nothing to do with the title, or “what different churches believe”. They are intentionally inflammatory, and highly offensive. This thread is for the sole purpose of trolling.


18 posted on 12/31/2010 9:33:44 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: marshmallow
The following is from the Gospel of Matthew, an Apostle who knew Jesus and His family background intimately, even without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: “Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas. And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? (Matt 13:55, 56) These comments were made by people who knew Joseph and Mary and their family, for the Scripture tells us in the preceding verse: “And when he (Jesus) was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? (Matt 13:54) It bears repeating that these comments were made by people who most certainly knew the difference between blood brothers and sisters and mere cousins or kinfolk. We find a second report of this incident in the Gospel of Mark.

“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.” (Mark 6:3) As additional assurance that those who were making these comments were very well acquainted with our Lord’s earthly family, we read: “But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but inhis own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.” (Mark 6:4, 5)

In Greek, the language of the New Testament, the word for brother/ brethren is adelphos {ad-el-fos'}; for sisters, it’s adelphe {ad-el-fay'}. The word for cousin/kinfolk is suggenes {soong-ghen-ace'}. To think or believe that the inspired writers of Scripture were unfamiliar with these terms and therefore subject to misusing them, is to question the very integrity of the Holy Spirit who directed their efforts. And that is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church does in the following entry from the 1994 Catechism.

Against this doctrine (Mary’s lifetime virginity) the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression. (500, Page 126, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994)

What the Roman Catholic Church has “always understood,” and what the Scriptures clearly say are as far apart in this case as Rome is from the South Pole. When the word adelphos is used in the Gospels in reference to a specific name or names, it always means blood brother(s). There are no exceptions. That is how we know that Simon Peter was Andrew’s brother; (Matt 4:18) that John was the brother of James; (Matt 4:21) that Herod had a brother, Philip; (Matt 14:3) that Judas (not Iscariot) was the brother of another James; (Luke 6:16) that Lazarus was the brother of Mary and Martha; (John 11:2) that Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters. (Matt 13:55; Mark 6:3) For the Vatican to suggest that two of Christ’s named brothers were the sons of another Mary without accounting for the other two named sons is absurd. To imply that the Holy Spirit didn’t “get it right” is blasphemy, and Jesus had some choice words regarding those who blaspheme His Holy Spirit. (Cf. Matthew 12:32; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10)

The Word of God could not have made it any clearer that Mary had four sons besides Jesus, and that Jesus had both brothers and sisters. Following is a list of New Testament verses that simply cannot be misconstrued no matter how loudly the Roman Catholic apologists protest.

Matthew 12:46-49; Matthew 13:55; Mark 3:31-34; Mark 6:3 Luke 8:19-21; John 2:12; John 7:3-10; Acts 1:14; 1Corinthians 9:5; Galatians 1:19; Jude 1:1 (probable).

In the Galatians reference cited above, Paul identifies James as the Lord’s adelphos, (brother) not as His suggenes, (cousin or kinfolk). It is out of the question to think or believe that Paul didn’t know the difference between a brother and a cousin. Moreover, the great historians of the patristic age – Josephus of Judaism, and Eusebius of Christianity – made reference to brothers of the Lord in their respective histories.

In his Antiquities XX, 200, Josephus reported that, “James, the brother of Jesus called the Christ” had been put to death. And Eusebius, in his Book 2, Chapter 1:3, refers to “James the Lord’s brother.” Then, in Book 3, Chapter 20:1, this appears: “Jude…the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.” His meaning could not be clearer. The Jude he refers to was a blood brother of Jesus, not a brother by faith.

But the doctrine of Mary’s lifetime virginity, the denial that she and Joseph enjoyed a normal marriage as commanded by God in 1st Corinthians 7:4, 5, actually was obviated about 800 years before the births of Mary, Joseph or Jesus. In Psalm 69 is contained the following clearly Messianic prophecy: “I am become a stranger unto

my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.” (Psa 69:8, 9)

How do we know that these verses are a Messianic prophecy? Because we read in the Gospel of John: “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.” (John 2:15-17)

And in Romans, we read: “For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.” (Romans 15:3)

The Roman Catholic doctrine stating that Mary the mother of Jesus retained her virginity after Christ’s birth and for the rest of her life is just plain heresy. Worse, it is a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, author of the Scriptures, because it in effect accuses the Word of God of lying to us.

19 posted on 12/31/2010 9:34:32 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Christian Engineer Mass; marshmallow

Strong viewpoints are routinely expressed on the RF. The comment was not directed to any particular person, and so, if someone takes it personally, the question becomes, why?

Stating that “This thread is for the sole purpose of trolling” is a statement that presumes to know what is in the original poster’s mind.

A close look at marshmallow’s history shows a number of threads on both sides of the Catholic/Protestant debate. Religion forum threads are often very contentious.

If someone is offended, then perhaps it would be better to stay off the Religion Forum, or to stick to ecumenic or caucus threads. For a discussion of Open, Ecumenic, and Caucus threads, please see the Religion Moderator’s profile page.


20 posted on 12/31/2010 9:41:28 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

“Strong viewpoints” do not include pejoratives.

This thread is a trolling thread. And the catholic posters have been posting many such threads recently.


21 posted on 12/31/2010 9:44:07 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

> “Strong viewpoints” do not include pejoratives.
>
> This thread is a trolling thread. And the catholic
> posters have been posting many such threads recently.

Bears repeating.


22 posted on 12/31/2010 9:45:55 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

Strong viewpoints” do not include pejoratives.

Of course they DO. For a fuller explanation, please read the RF rules. That may help with understanding. Pejoratives are a regular part of every Catholic/Protestant thread. Again, if someone is a new poster, they will not realize that. The rule is, not to make the pejorative personal to a specific poster.

I can say, "Protestants are too thick-headed to realize that no Catholic makes an idol of Mary." I cannot say, "X Poster is too thick-headed to realize that no Catholic makes an idol of Mary." See? The pejorative cannot be personal.

You may feel free to disagree with me; in that case, please go to the Religion Moderator, and ask him/her.

23 posted on 12/31/2010 9:51:46 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Westbrook
Bears repeating.

If you think so, why fall for the bait?

24 posted on 12/31/2010 9:53:03 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

It is bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian.

Whether it is within or without of some ruleset is not at issue.

If Catholics wish to have bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with others, it is of no surprise to me, and simply reinforces a history of bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with the world.


25 posted on 12/31/2010 9:55:58 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

Beautiful! See? It is clear that you know perfectly well how to post insulting remarks against Catholics on the Religion Forum.

Now, I will be vastly impressed to see any protestant poster, say the same thing to any other protestant poster who makes posts in bad manners, poor taste and unchristian toward Catholics.


26 posted on 12/31/2010 10:05:39 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

> If you think so, why fall for the bait?

The same question could be asked of you.


27 posted on 12/31/2010 10:07:27 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Westbrook

To me, the thread is not “bait.”


28 posted on 12/31/2010 10:09:47 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

“Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.”
1st Cor 8:11

1st Cor 13:1-8
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


29 posted on 12/31/2010 10:11:10 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Westbrook

Thank you, sincerely, for posting one of my favorite passages of scripture.


30 posted on 12/31/2010 10:12:48 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne; Westbrook; marshmallow; Salvation

I engaged in strong, and truthfully held opinion. I did NOT engage in pejorative, bad manners, or unchristian behavior, which is basis of the entire point.

And yes I do EXACTLY the same thing to protestants. I have had lengthy “debates” with the supposed protestants on FR who post this same kind of thread that has been posted here (though actually NOT as bad - they do NOT include pejoratives that I have seen) against Mormons.

My personal opinion is what Jesus said (paraphrasing “he who does a miracle in my name cannot lightly speak evil of me - forbid him not” - and I believe that applies to Catholics and Mormons.

I believe we have much more important enemies than each other today, and these TROLLING THREADS do NOT serve Christ in ANY way, and if Jesus were to come back today, he would not be happy with those who have posted them, CONTRARY to their belief.

Those who engaged in this kind of thing have wasted their time, and hidden their talent under a rock.


31 posted on 12/31/2010 10:14:47 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass; Judith Anne
It is bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian.

Whether it is within or without of some ruleset is not at issue.

If protestants wish to have bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with others, it is of no surprise to me, and simply reinforces a history of bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with the world.

32 posted on 12/31/2010 10:19:41 AM PST by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
And yes I do EXACTLY the same thing to protestants. I have had lengthy “debates” with the supposed protestants on FR who post this same kind of thread that has been posted here (though actually NOT as bad - they do NOT include pejoratives that I have seen) against Mormons.

As you have only been a FReeper for two months, would you please provide a link to such a lengthy debate with the supposed protestants on FR who post this same kind of thread?

I agree, we have much more important enemies than each other.

33 posted on 12/31/2010 10:20:01 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: starlifter

;-D


34 posted on 12/31/2010 10:22:25 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

> To me, the thread is not “bait.”

Neither is it to me, but rather another vehicle for disdainful speech and “doubtful disputations” (Rom 14:1) which must be exposed.

Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

2nd Tim 2:23-26
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

1st Tim 6:3-9
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:17
These things I command you, that ye love one another.


35 posted on 12/31/2010 10:23:18 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Judith Anne

> Thank you, sincerely, for posting one of my favorite
> passages of scripture.

Amen, sister.

Let us seek common ground, rather than reasons to dispute one another.

Disagreements should be left as that. Disagreements. End.


36 posted on 12/31/2010 10:26:05 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Westbrook

Seems as though you really know how to be a good follower of Christ, and how to back that up with Scripture.

Congratulations! I am certain such a person would never say anything rude to a Catholic about Catholic beliefs, practices, traditions, dogma, etc.

Thanks.


37 posted on 12/31/2010 10:27:37 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: marshmallow
The reason that Catholics insist Mary was Forever Virginal, is they need this to support the Doctrine that she was Sinless. They need the Doctrine of Sinlesslessness to support the Doctrine that ALL SALVATION is obtained through Mary (Not the Lord Jesus Christ).

The issue then is not her Virginity after Christ was born, but whether ALL SALVATION is Obtained through Mary as Pope Pius IX said in the UBI PRIMAM of 1854 and the Dogma in 1854:

"For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."

We Protestants maintain that the Lord Jesus Christ IS our ONLY Salvation. His death on the Cross, paid the price of Sin on behalf of folks like us. The Scriptures say there "IS NO SALVATION IN ANY OTHER".

It is the Insertion of the Traditions of Man to give away Salvation to Mary and is a result of the low view of Scripture held.

We Protestants also maintain that Matthew is correct in Verse 1:25 "But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born."

Joseph, a Righteous Man, bided his time until the right time to consummate his marriage to his betrothed Mary.

38 posted on 12/31/2010 10:29:28 AM PST by sr4402
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To: Westbrook

Praise God! I am not joking. My dear protestant relatives and I gain a lot of comfort and strength from praying with one another through family trials; we never seem to have any need to disagree.


39 posted on 12/31/2010 10:31:21 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Westbrook
It appears that Catholics are making a lot of posts in this forum looking for a fight,

I've noticed that too. What's with that?

When you debate a Catholic on FR, many of them end up saying how persecuted they are when they encounter another opinion.

Yet they are starting all these threads lately just looking for a fight.

Weird.

40 posted on 12/31/2010 10:33:50 AM PST by what's up
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To: Judith Anne

> I am certain such a person would never say anything rude
> to a Catholic about Catholic beliefs, practices,
> traditions, dogma, etc.

I also am merely a sinner saved by Grace, “of like passions with you” (Acts 14:15).

So, please forgive me if, at times, I express a lack of the meekness and charity commanded by Scripture.


41 posted on 12/31/2010 10:38:49 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Judith Anne

I reference it on my about me page. I don’t have the htread link though


42 posted on 12/31/2010 10:41:48 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (Capitol Hill operator 866-727-4894 toll free. Just say which Representative/Senator you want to spea)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

Thanks for telling me about that. In many areas, we are in agreement. May God protect us from the treason within!


43 posted on 12/31/2010 10:44:51 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: what's up; Westbrook
It appears that protestants are making a lot of posts in this forum looking for a fight,
I've noticed that too. What's with that?

When you debate a protestant on FR, many of them end up saying how persecuted they are when they encounter another opinion.

Yet they are starting all these threads lately just looking for a fight.

Weird.

44 posted on 12/31/2010 11:02:29 AM PST by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: marshmallow

Mary is set aside by God for himself. She’s a holy object.

Things that were set aside for God in the Temple were never used for anything else. King Belshazzar profaned the sacred vessels from the Temple and was condemned.

How much more is the Mother of the Lord, she who carried him under her heart than all the vessels in the Temple?


45 posted on 12/31/2010 11:03:26 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
This thread is for the sole purpose of trolling.

Wrong.

The good Father explains very clearly why the "brothers" of Jesus spoken of in the Gospels are not siblings of Jesus. Rather well, in my opinion.

That is the point of the article.

You've taken exception to the word "Proddy". I'm sorry about that. As a frequent reader of Fr. Hunwicke's blog, I can tell you that he is not "trolling". He's English and the word "Proddy" is a colloquialism in the UK, albeit a somewhat disparaging one.

The words "Romish", "Romanist" etc., are used frequently on this forum to refer to Catholics. Too frequently, in my opinion but that's just something we have to deal with.

46 posted on 12/31/2010 11:04:45 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: starlifter

> Yet they are starting all these threads lately just looking for a fight.

I’m sorry, but I don’t remember any recent threads started by non-Catholics posting articles that contain disdainful language towards Catholics.

I see Joel Olsteen’s thing posted daily, I see the LDS stuff from time-to-time, and the wonderfully uplifting Days of Praise every day. I don’t remember any of them presenting any direct challenges to Catholics or employing disdainful language concerning Catholic dogma.

If you can give us examples, then the posters thereof should be willing to explain the same in light of the Scriptures I posted in this thread.


47 posted on 12/31/2010 11:10:30 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Westbrook

Westbrook, no offense is intended to you. But a lot of open RF threads that are started on Catholic topics are quickly derailed into the usual anti-Catholic arguments, very well known, that mushroom into thousands of posts nitpicking every single Catholic/protestant conflict that has ever taken place on FR.

If you haven’t participated, then you are blessed indeed!


48 posted on 12/31/2010 11:14:11 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: sr4402

” They need the Doctrine of Sinlesslessness to support the Doctrine that ALL SALVATION is obtained through Mary (Not the Lord Jesus Christ).”

Wrong.

Mary’s personal salvation came through Christ. You don’t think he could give her the same salvation offered mankind, but do it in HIS time?

Salvation come through the savific redemption of humanity by Christ alone. THAT is Catholic Dogma. ~Not what you posted.

“For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation.”

She bore Christ. If you have a foundation in the Incarnation, you’d understand her role.

“We Protestants also maintain that Matthew is correct in Verse 1:25 “But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born.”

You are translating “until” as used by current meanings.

Michal, the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death (2 Samuel 6:23). Are we to assume that she had children after hear death? How about the raven that Noah released from the ark? The bird “went forth and did not return until the waters were dried up upon the earth” (Genesis 8:7). Actually, the raven NEVER returned at all. Then there’s the burial of Moses. About the location of his grave it was said that no man knows “until this present day” (Dt. 34:6). Well, we know that no one has known since that day either.


49 posted on 12/31/2010 11:23:42 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: what's up; Judith Anne; starlifter; marshmallow; Christian Engineer Mass; sr4402

I have no problem understanding the Catholic sense of persecution. They have always been a minority in this country and were often treated very harshly in the 19th and 20th centuries.

There is a Catholic Community near to us with whom I am very friendly. They have been punished by the town because of their strong anti-abortion and anti-homosexual letters to the editors in local papers in in their preaching. I agree with them four-square on these matters.

When they appllied for a building permit to expand their school and their chapel, the town imposed absurd requirements upon them that nobody else has to meet. Even the town doesn’t meet such requirements on its own property!

The Catholic community sued, and eventually prevailed in court, but during the controversy, a Boston TV station came up to interview the clergy of the community and people in the town. I was away on business that week and was unable to participate. We don’t have a TV, so we did not see the news segment, but one of the clergy from the community called me almost in tears. They had butchered his interview.

FOr example, the TV interviewer asked him if he believed that Jews will go to hell. Antagonistic townsfolk have been trying to paint the community as anti-semitic for years. The brother pointed-out that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were all Jews, and that almost all the first Christians were Jews, but he added, “Without Faith in Jesus Christ, anybody, including the Jews, will go to hell.”

They excerpted his response so that the only thing aired was, “Jews will go to hell.” There were other edits made to paint him as an anti-semitic, raving bigot. At the end of our call, choking up, he asked us to pray for them.

Another time, the Catholic school was having a music recital of their students. They rented an auditorium at a local State college. When I arrived to attend, there were goons outside singing, “We Shall Overcome” and passing out literature decrying the “CULTure of Hate”, with CULT capitalized and boldfaced.

I am NOT making this up!

Inside the auditorium, the children, dressed in their modest and tidy school uniforms, were singing, playing fiddles, guitars, mandolins, and piano, step-dancing, and reciting prose and poetry.

I asked one of the brothers what was going on with the demonstrators outside, and he said it was a reaction to the TV “special”. I learned later that it was organized by one of the pro-abort, pro-homo, global warming goons here in town.

When I exited with five of my 11 children (I only brought the ones who could attend), I saw the same goonery outside. I was so incensed I said sarcastically, “Thank you for your expression of love.” Whereupon one of them said, “Thank you for teaching your children to hate.”

I told them that I teach my children the words of Jesus to love our enemies and pray for them who hurt us, and asked my children to verify, which they gladly did. At that point, one of the policemen approached me and said, “They’re not worth it, sir.” To which I heartily agreed and started to leave.

I heard shouts of, “Sir! Sir!” behind me, so I turned to see two young women running towards me. They said they were journalists and asked if they could get my name and interview me. I told them, “I don’t trust journalists,” and walked away with my children.


50 posted on 12/31/2010 11:35:12 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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