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Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
Chiesa ^ | 1/17/11 | Sandro Magister

Posted on 01/17/2011 3:20:20 AM PST by markomalley

ROME, January 17, 2011 – In illustrating the life of Saint Catherine of Genoa, at the general audience last Wednesday, Benedict XVI took the thought of this saint as a point of departure to explain what purgatory is.

During the second half of the 15th century, the time of Catherine, the contemporary image of purgatory was like the one depicted above. It was the mountain of purification sung of by Dante in the "Divine Comedy."

That purgatory is a physical place is a very ancient conviction, which endured until recent times.

But not for Catherine. For her, the fire of purgatory was essentially thought of as an interior fire.

And Benedict XVI has completely agreed with her.

Some in the media have covered this catechesis of pope Joseph Ratzinger, placing it among the good news. As if the pope had decreed not so much the interiority of purgatory, but its wholesome disappearance. A disappearance, moreover, that to a large extent has already taken place in the current preaching of the Church, as of several decades ago.

But the teaching of Benedict XVI says exactly the opposite. Not the disappearance of purgatory, but its true reality.

Almost no one has recalled this. But Benedict XVI has written his most powerful pages on purgatory in the encyclical "Spe Salvi," the most personal of the three encyclicals he has published so far, the only one planned and written entirely by him alone, from the first line to the last.

Below is presented the passage of the catechesis on Saint Catherine of Genoa relating to purgatory.

And immediately afterward, the paragraphs from "Spe Salvi" also dedicated to purgatory, against the background of the judgment of God, which "is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace."


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"THIS IS PURGATORY, AN INTERIOR FIRE"

by Benedict XVI


From the general audience of  January 12, 2011


[...] Catherine's thought on purgatory, for which she is particularly known, is condensed in the last two parts of the book mentioned at the beginning: "Treatise on Purgatory" and "Dialogues on the Soul and Body."

It is important to observe that, in her mystical experience, Catherine never had specific revelations on purgatory or on souls that are being purified there. However, in the writings inspired by our saint purgatory is a central element, and the way of describing it has original characteristics in relation to her era.

The first original feature refers to the "place" of the purification of souls. In her time [purgatory] was presented primarily with recourse to images connected to space: There was thought of a certain space where purgatory would be found. For Catherine, instead, purgatory is not represented as an element of the landscape of the core of the earth; it is a fire that is not exterior but interior.

This is purgatory, an interior fire. The saint speaks of the soul's journey of purification to full communion with God, based on her own experience of profound sorrow for the sins committed, in contrast to the infinite love of God. We have heard about the moment of her conversion, when Catherine suddenly felt God's goodness, the infinite distance of her life from this goodness and a burning fire within her. And this is the fire that purifies, it is the interior fire of purgatory.

Here also there is an original feature in relation to the thought of the era. She does not begin, in fact, from the beyond to narrate the torments of purgatory – as was usual at that time and perhaps also today – and then indicate the path for purification or conversion. Instead our saint begins from her own interior experience of her life on the path to eternity.

The soul, says Catherine, appears before God still bound to the desires and the sorrow that derive from sin, and this makes it impossible for it to enjoy the Beatific Vision of God. Catherine affirms that God is so pure and holy that the soul with stains of sin cannot be in the presence of the Divine Majesty. And we also realize how far we are, how full we are of so many things, so that we cannot see God. The soul is conscious of the immense love and perfect justice of God and, in consequence, suffers for not having responded correctly and perfectly to that love, and that is why the love itself of God becomes a flame. Love itself purifies it from its dross of sin.

Theological and mystical sources typical of the era can be found in Catherine's work. Particularly there is an image from Dionysius the Areopagite: that of the golden thread that unites the human heart with God himself. When God has purified man, he ties him with a very fine thread of gold, which is his love, and attracts him to himself with such strong affection that man remains as "overcome and conquered and altogether outside himself." Thus the human heart is invaded by the love of God, which becomes the only guide, the sole motor of his existence.

This situation of elevation to God and of abandonment to his will, expressed in the image of the thread, is used by Catherine to express the action of the divine light on souls in purgatory, light that purifies them and elevates them to the splendors of the shining rays of God.

Dear friends, the saints, in their experience of union with God, reach such profound "knowledge" of the divine mysteries, in which love and knowledge are fused, that they are of help to theologians themselves in their task of study, of "intelligentia fidei," of "intelligentia" of the mysteries of the faith, of real deepening in the mysteries, for example, of what purgatory is. [...]

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"HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, BUT ONLY AS THROUGH FIRE..."

by Benedict XVI


From the encyclical "Spe Salvi" of November 30, 2007


[...] I am convinced that the question of justice constitutes the essential argument, or in any case the strongest argument, in favour of faith in eternal life. The purely individual need for a fulfilment that is denied to us in this life, for an everlasting love that we await, is certainly an important motive for believing that man was made for eternity; but only in connection with the impossibility that the injustice of history should be the final word does the necessity for Christ's return and for new life become fully convincing.

44. To protest against God in the name of justice is not helpful. A world without God is a world without hope (cf. Eph 2:12). Only God can create justice. And faith gives us the certainty that he does so. The image of the Last Judgement is not primarily an image of terror, but an image of hope; for us it may even be the decisive image of hope. Is it not also a frightening image? I would say: it is an image that evokes responsibility, an image, therefore, of that fear of which Saint Hilary spoke when he said that all our fear has its place in love.

God is justice and creates justice. This is our consolation and our hope. And in his justice there is also grace. This we know by turning our gaze to the crucified and risen Christ. Both these things – justice and grace – must be seen in their correct inner relationship. Grace does not cancel out justice. It does not make wrong into right. It is not a sponge which wipes everything away, so that whatever someone has done on earth ends up being of equal value. Dostoevsky, for example, was right to protest against this kind of Heaven and this kind of grace in his novel "The Brothers Karamazov."

Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened. [...] In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found, inter alia, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.

45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God.

The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory. We do not need to examine here the complex historical paths of this development; it is enough to ask what it actually means.

With death, our life-choice becomes definitive?our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours?people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are.

46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people – we may suppose – there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil?much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul.

What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God's judgement according to each person's particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images?simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it.

Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15).

In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.

It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning?it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ.

The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice – the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all.

The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together – judgement and grace – that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).

48. A further point must be mentioned here, because it is important for the practice of Christian hope. Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example 2 Macc 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church.

The East does not recognize the purifying and expiatory suffering of souls in the afterlife, but it does acknowledge various levels of beatitude and of suffering in the intermediate state. The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death?this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon?

Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other – my prayer for him – can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God's time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain.

In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too. As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself? We should also ask: what can I do in order that others may be saved and that for them too the star of hope may rise? Then I will have done my utmost for my own personal salvation as well. [...]

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The complete text of the encyclical:

> "Spe Salvi"

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The complete text of Benedict XVI's catechesis on Saint Catherine of Genoa:

> General audience of January 12, 2011


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
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To: HossB86

Do you really think you will get into heaven with sins on your soul?


81 posted on 01/18/2011 7:07:03 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RoadGumby; markomalley
Yes, that's Church teaching. the Church catechism teaches that affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven or immediate and everlasting damnation. Purgatory has no "time" and is not a "place".

You or perhaps a worse sinner like me dies and we go to heaven or hell today. If going up to heaven we experience the final sanctification in the blood of the lamb. There is no today or tomorrow in heaven, as we are outside the boundaries of time
82 posted on 01/18/2011 7:10:38 AM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

The point, dear sir or ma’am, is that the punctuation is CONSISTENT in all, ALL, the instances of Jesus saying “Verily, I say unto thee...”

Yet, in THIS instance you wish to claim there is an error, to fit your man-made ‘idea’. Sorry, it does not hold water.

You may choose to believe that the blood that Jesus shed is insufficient to provide all the cleansing your soul needs, but, I for one know that it is exceedingly sufficient.


83 posted on 01/18/2011 8:23:22 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: Cronos
"...forgiveness even when experiencing purgatory"

There is no forgiveness, if punishment is applied. Purgatory is pure fiction that arises out of the hearts of men that value punishment, not forgiveness. It's a fiction contrived for the purpose of making punishmnet an acceptable Christian value and practice, in every way contrary to God's expressed values and Word.

"Our prayers, actions etc. cannot ... wipe away our sins — only Christ’s blood does that."

God disagrees. First He teaches us to forgive.

John 13:14,15, "Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

Then He points out what one must do in order for Him to extend forgiveness. Matt 6:14,15, "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

84 posted on 01/18/2011 9:21:34 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Cronos
if you are experiencing purgatory you’re already in the saved list, not the damned list.

Not good enough to meet Christ is what purgatory says, also that you are still condemed for your sins...that flies in the face of the Savior and all which he has says and which He has done for us...... It's a lie that keeps people from the assurance He has given us that we are complete in Him....that His task was complete.."It is finished"..... "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Therefore someone is lieing....and I will accept and believe what Christ has stated and which He is the source of all truth....anything which opposes His words is a lie. Purgatory is a lie...and we know who the Father of lies is.

85 posted on 01/18/2011 9:50:07 AM PST by caww
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To: ScubieNuc; Cronos

Yes, I find these scriptures also denounce purgatory. How can one believe in that as when we die we are immediately with the Lord. They have to deny what is written then.

2 Cor. 5:1-8. ..................”We are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord. and he goes on to say ...............”to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”................. When all our earthly tent is dissolved, we can be assured that we will be in the presence of the One we serve and we love here on earth

Jn.5:24........................... “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,.................. and shall not come into condemnation;................. but is passed from death unto life

Rom.4:8 ...........................“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.” ......................In our forgiven position God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us otherwise no one would be able to stand before him.

Jude 24 ..........................“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and............... to present you faultless...... before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”


86 posted on 01/18/2011 10:37:34 AM PST by caww
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To: Salvation

“Do you really think you will get into heaven with sins on your soul?”

No... that’s why Christ shed his blood on the cross; that’s why I’ve been justified; that’s why my sins are blotted out and held against me no more.

Do you really think you need anything else? It’s already been done. If there is a “final” purification, then the implication is that the purifying blood of Christ... well.. isn’t. It isn’t enough. And, if that’s what Rome teaches, then it’s teaching a false gospel.

Hoss


87 posted on 01/18/2011 10:54:21 AM PST by HossB86
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To: metmom; caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; count-your-change

“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?” (Matthew 21:42)

“And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27)

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.” (Luke 24:44)

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39)

“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:38)

“Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?” (John 7:42)

“Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.” (Acts 1:16)

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)

“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,” (Acts 17:2)

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.” (Acts 17:11-12)

“For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.” (Acts 18:28)

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.” (Acts 28:23)

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)” (Romans 1:1-2)

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:” (Romans 16:26)

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)

“For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” (Romans 10:11)

“For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” (1 Corinthians 15:3)

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:22)

“For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” (1 Timothy 5:18)

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)

There was far more extensive and continuous use of Scriptures in the public service of the early Church than there is among us. - [Addis and Arnold, Catholic Dictionary, The Catholic Publication Society, 1887, page 509]

Our present convenient compendiums — the Missal, Breviary, and so on were formed only at the end of a long evolution. In the first period (lasting perhaps till about the fourth century) there were no books except the Bible, from which lessons were read and Psalms were sung. Nothing was written, because nothing was fixed. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 9, page 296]

Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]

On the other hand up to the end of the fourth century, there were practically no infallible definitions available.
[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]


The very nature of the Bible ought to prove to any thinking man the impossibility of its being the one safe method to find out what the Saviour taught. - [Question Box, 1913 edition, page 67]

The Bible was not intended to be a textbook of the Christian religion. - [John Francis Knoll, Catholic Facts, Our Sunday Visitor Press, Huntington, Indiana, 1927, page 50]

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29)

...though Catholic families generally have a Bible, it is more venerated than read.- [George M. Searle, Plain Facts, Paulist Press, New York, page 154]

For Catholics, therefore, as far as obligations are concerned there is no practical difference between God’s law and the law of the Church. - [John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Benziger Brothers, New York, Cincinnati, Chicago, 1904, page 26]

Of course if one is to take nothing as belonging to the Christian faith but what is plainly or unquestionably stated in the Bible, on will not believe or accept it [the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception]. -[George M. Searle, Plain Facts, Paulist Press, New York, page 85]

By what right do you teach doctrines not found in the Bible?
Because the origin of our faith is not in the Bible alone, but the Church which gives us both the written and the unwritten word. - [Question Box, 1913 edition, page 75]

The unshrinking defense of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. - [Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, page 295]

Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good, the matter is in this respect left to the judgment of the bishop or inquisitor, who may with the advice of the pastor or confessor permit the reading of the Sacred Books translated into the vernacular by Catholic authors to those who they know will derive from such reading no harm but rather an increase of faith and piety, which permission they must have in writing. Those, however, who presume to read or possess them without such permission may not receive absolution from their sins till they have handed them over to the ordinary. - [Fourth rule on prohibited books, Council of Trent, 1583]

As it has been clearly shown by experience that, if the Holy Bible in the vernacular is generally permitted without any distinction, more harm than utility is thereby caused, owing to human temerity: all versions in the vernacular, even by Catholics, are altogether prohibited unless approved by the Holy See, or published, under the vigilant care of the bishops, with annotations taken from the Fathers of the Church and learned Catholic writers. -[Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, pages 412-413]

An enraged Pope Paul V, in 1606, told the Venetian ambassador, “Do you not know that so much reading of Scripture ruins the Catholic religion?” - [The Reformation: A History by Diarmaid MacCulloch, 1972]

More than this, parts of the Bible are evidently unsuited to the very young or to the ignorant, and hence Clement XI condemned the proposition that the reading of the Scriptures is for all. These principles are fixed and invariable but the discipline of the Church with regard to the reading of the Bible in the vulgar tongue has varied with varying circumstances. In early times the Bible was read freely by the lay people ... New dangers came in during the Middle Ages ... To meet these evils, the Council of Toulouse (1229 ) and Terragona (1234) forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible. Pius IV required bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read even Catholic versions of Scriptures unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such reading was likely to prove beneficial. - [Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1887, page 82]

More here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2637924/posts?page=809#809 on this aspect

The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question.” - (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter xxiii. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York)

“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”

“He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-——questions of religion-——to an authority located in Rome.”

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God’s Church on matters of faith and morals-——this is what all must give..”

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”

“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God.” — Henry G. Graham, “What Faith Really Means”, (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914


Thus, the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith by corrupting it, such as heretics, or by renouncing it, such as apostates. St. Thomas Aquinas

Is it permitted for Christians to be present at, or to take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement everyone who, in any way, lays claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! - Pope Pius XI

We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: -http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2009/12/lay-roman-catholic-and-eastern-orthodox.html (This is now considered defunct)

Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind. Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

..if counterfeiters and other evil-doers are immediately condemned to death by the secular authorities, there is much more reason for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, not only to be excommunicated but even put to death. - St. Thomas Aquinas

That it is against the will of the Spirit to burn heretics at the stake is condemned as false. Pope Leo X


88 posted on 01/19/2011 6:22:19 AM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: daniel1212

Oh dear....talk about slamming the door Jesus opened in peoples faces! Just as He accused the Pharasees of doing.

These are astounding statements made by religious leaders. Helps one to understand why when speaking with catholics, once they know you are not catholic, they often shut down or walk away changing the subject. It does seem these statments are STILL believed today.

Interesting is this never happens when I speak with non-catholics, no matter their denomination.


89 posted on 01/19/2011 6:52:13 AM PST by caww
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To: daniel1212

That was an interesting link Danaiel...the comment section especially revealing that even catholics can’t seem to agree in what the Vatican Popes issue are for today or not. Much confussion, and understandably so. Once again no clarification to the laity who abide by the old edits and such... and no not those which are null and void now, changed or altered to make more palatible. Seems they are always having to explain themselves.


90 posted on 01/19/2011 7:05:49 AM PST by caww
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To: daniel1212

It seems the RCC today is not the RCC of the first century.

There was far more extensive and continuous use of Scriptures in the public service of the early Church than there is among us. - [Addis and Arnold, Catholic Dictionary, The Catholic Publication Society, 1887, page 509]

Our present convenient compendiums — the Missal, Breviary, and so on were formed only at the end of a long evolution. In the first period (lasting perhaps till about the fourth century) there were no books except the Bible, from which lessons were read and Psalms were sung. Nothing was written, because nothing was fixed. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 9, page 296]

Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]

On the other hand up to the end of the fourth century, there were practically no infallible definitions available.
[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]

******************************************************************************
Do tell.......


91 posted on 01/19/2011 7:55:27 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: caww

It is largely an official paper unity no greater than cults who rely upon the same means, that of implicit trust in an office that is effectively superior to Scripture, while what is effectually conveyed and fostered is liberalism with the primary concern that you die in the arms of Rome, whom it is supposed will take care of the rest.


92 posted on 01/19/2011 3:25:18 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: daniel1212

I was reading the code of canon today....and the heirarchy...additionally when and who established the Pope’s authority,..(which that in itself changed with the tide).... I was trying to find an answer if catholics see their church as law. Only to find, as with everything else, varying degrees of law to who oversees these etc. It’s all bundled up into a huge mish mash of “stuff”...and they differ along the way...not to mention certain things are on and off again like a lightbulb.

So yes...very much like the cults....and basically the laity pledges their minds and will to obeying, but I think few take that pledge seriously, for that matter those in leadership.


93 posted on 01/19/2011 3:52:02 PM PST by caww
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To: RoadGumby

Verily I say unto you.

THERE WAS NO PUNCTUATION IN THE ORIGINALS.

And just because the punctuation is consistent doesn’t mean a thing.

Jesus died for our sins. Period. And I am so thankful for that.

It most certainly does not mean that I have never sinned.

“Protestants deny the existence of purgatory because they say that the only cleansing needed for salvation is the cleansing in the precious Blood of Jesus, poured out on the Cross for sinners. Catholics agree. The holy souls in purgatory are not experiencing a different or additional cleansing, but only the final effects of the one cleansing in the blood of Christ, since nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). Those who are being purified beyond death are not the unbelieving and the impenitent, who will go to hell; the souls in purgatory are those who have already been justified by grace and are at peace with God at their life’s end.

Protestants protest against purgatory, yet they have no objection to the idea that for their sins God sometimes allows Christians to endure both temporal judgments and deprivation of spiritual consolations. For example, the Presbyterian Westminster Confession (1646) says that true Christian believers may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (from John H. Leith, ed., Creeds of the Churches: A Reader in Christian Doctrine in the Bible to the Present (Richmond, Virginia: John Knox Press, 1973), p. 212). The Baptist Abstract of Principles (1859) says in a similar vein that believers may “fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves . . . “ (Leith, p. 342).”

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp


94 posted on 01/19/2011 7:34:58 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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