Posted on 01/17/2011 3:20:20 AM PST by markomalley
Do you really think you will get into heaven with sins on your soul?
The point, dear sir or ma’am, is that the punctuation is CONSISTENT in all, ALL, the instances of Jesus saying “Verily, I say unto thee...”
Yet, in THIS instance you wish to claim there is an error, to fit your man-made ‘idea’. Sorry, it does not hold water.
You may choose to believe that the blood that Jesus shed is insufficient to provide all the cleansing your soul needs, but, I for one know that it is exceedingly sufficient.
There is no forgiveness, if punishment is applied. Purgatory is pure fiction that arises out of the hearts of men that value punishment, not forgiveness. It's a fiction contrived for the purpose of making punishmnet an acceptable Christian value and practice, in every way contrary to God's expressed values and Word.
"Our prayers, actions etc. cannot ... wipe away our sins — only Christ’s blood does that."
God disagrees. First He teaches us to forgive.
John 13:14,15, "Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
Then He points out what one must do in order for Him to extend forgiveness. Matt 6:14,15, "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Not good enough to meet Christ is what purgatory says, also that you are still condemed for your sins...that flies in the face of the Savior and all which he has says and which He has done for us...... It's a lie that keeps people from the assurance He has given us that we are complete in Him....that His task was complete.."It is finished"..... "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Therefore someone is lieing....and I will accept and believe what Christ has stated and which He is the source of all truth....anything which opposes His words is a lie. Purgatory is a lie...and we know who the Father of lies is.
Yes, I find these scriptures also denounce purgatory. How can one believe in that as when we die we are immediately with the Lord. They have to deny what is written then.
2 Cor. 5:1-8. ..................”We are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord. and he goes on to say ...............”to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”................. When all our earthly tent is dissolved, we can be assured that we will be in the presence of the One we serve and we love here on earth
Jn.5:24........................... “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,.................. and shall not come into condemnation;................. but is passed from death unto life
Rom.4:8 ...........................“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.” ......................In our forgiven position God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us otherwise no one would be able to stand before him.
Jude 24 ..........................“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and............... to present you faultless...... before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”
“Do you really think you will get into heaven with sins on your soul?”
No... that’s why Christ shed his blood on the cross; that’s why I’ve been justified; that’s why my sins are blotted out and held against me no more.
Do you really think you need anything else? It’s already been done. If there is a “final” purification, then the implication is that the purifying blood of Christ... well.. isn’t. It isn’t enough. And, if that’s what Rome teaches, then it’s teaching a false gospel.
Hoss
“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?” (Matthew 21:42)
“And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27)
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.” (Luke 24:44)
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39)
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:38)
“Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?” (John 7:42)
“Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.” (Acts 1:16)
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)
“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,” (Acts 17:2)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.” (Acts 17:11-12)
“For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.” (Acts 18:28)
“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.” (Acts 28:23)
“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)” (Romans 1:1-2)
“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:” (Romans 16:26)
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)
“For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” (Romans 10:11)
“For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” (1 Corinthians 15:3)
“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:22)
“For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” (1 Timothy 5:18)
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)
There was far more extensive and continuous use of Scriptures in the public service of the early Church than there is among us. - [Addis and Arnold, Catholic Dictionary, The Catholic Publication Society, 1887, page 509]
Our present convenient compendiums — the Missal, Breviary, and so on were formed only at the end of a long evolution. In the first period (lasting perhaps till about the fourth century) there were no books except the Bible, from which lessons were read and Psalms were sung. Nothing was written, because nothing was fixed. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 9, page 296]
Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]
On the other hand up to the end of the fourth century, there were practically no infallible definitions available.
[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]
The Bible was not intended to be a textbook of the Christian religion. - [John Francis Knoll, Catholic Facts, Our Sunday Visitor Press, Huntington, Indiana, 1927, page 50]
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29)
...though Catholic families generally have a Bible, it is more venerated than read.- [George M. Searle, Plain Facts, Paulist Press, New York, page 154]
For Catholics, therefore, as far as obligations are concerned there is no practical difference between God’s law and the law of the Church. - [John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Benziger Brothers, New York, Cincinnati, Chicago, 1904, page 26]
Of course if one is to take nothing as belonging to the Christian faith but what is plainly or unquestionably stated in the Bible, on will not believe or accept it [the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception]. -[George M. Searle, Plain Facts, Paulist Press, New York, page 85]
By what right do you teach doctrines not found in the Bible?
Because the origin of our faith is not in the Bible alone, but the Church which gives us both the written and the unwritten word. - [Question Box, 1913 edition, page 75]
The unshrinking defense of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. - [Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, page 295]
Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good, the matter is in this respect left to the judgment of the bishop or inquisitor, who may with the advice of the pastor or confessor permit the reading of the Sacred Books translated into the vernacular by Catholic authors to those who they know will derive from such reading no harm but rather an increase of faith and piety, which permission they must have in writing. Those, however, who presume to read or possess them without such permission may not receive absolution from their sins till they have handed them over to the ordinary. - [Fourth rule on prohibited books, Council of Trent, 1583]
As it has been clearly shown by experience that, if the Holy Bible in the vernacular is generally permitted without any distinction, more harm than utility is thereby caused, owing to human temerity: all versions in the vernacular, even by Catholics, are altogether prohibited unless approved by the Holy See, or published, under the vigilant care of the bishops, with annotations taken from the Fathers of the Church and learned Catholic writers. -[Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, pages 412-413]
An enraged Pope Paul V, in 1606, told the Venetian ambassador, “Do you not know that so much reading of Scripture ruins the Catholic religion?” - [The Reformation: A History by Diarmaid MacCulloch, 1972]
More than this, parts of the Bible are evidently unsuited to the very young or to the ignorant, and hence Clement XI condemned the proposition that the reading of the Scriptures is for all. These principles are fixed and invariable but the discipline of the Church with regard to the reading of the Bible in the vulgar tongue has varied with varying circumstances. In early times the Bible was read freely by the lay people ... New dangers came in during the Middle Ages ... To meet these evils, the Council of Toulouse (1229 ) and Terragona (1234) forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible. Pius IV required bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read even Catholic versions of Scriptures unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such reading was likely to prove beneficial. - [Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1887, page 82]
More here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2637924/posts?page=809#809 on this aspect
The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question.” - (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter xxiii. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York)
“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”
“He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-——questions of religion-——to an authority located in Rome.”
“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God’s Church on matters of faith and morals-——this is what all must give..”
“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”
“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God.” — Henry G. Graham, “What Faith Really Means”, (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914
Thus, the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith by corrupting it, such as heretics, or by renouncing it, such as apostates. St. Thomas Aquinas
Is it permitted for Christians to be present at, or to take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement everyone who, in any way, lays claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! - Pope Pius XI
We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: -http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2009/12/lay-roman-catholic-and-eastern-orthodox.html (This is now considered defunct)
Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind. Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)
..if counterfeiters and other evil-doers are immediately condemned to death by the secular authorities, there is much more reason for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, not only to be excommunicated but even put to death. - St. Thomas Aquinas
That it is against the will of the Spirit to burn heretics at the stake is condemned as false. Pope Leo X
Oh dear....talk about slamming the door Jesus opened in peoples faces! Just as He accused the Pharasees of doing.
These are astounding statements made by religious leaders. Helps one to understand why when speaking with catholics, once they know you are not catholic, they often shut down or walk away changing the subject. It does seem these statments are STILL believed today.
Interesting is this never happens when I speak with non-catholics, no matter their denomination.
That was an interesting link Danaiel...the comment section especially revealing that even catholics can’t seem to agree in what the Vatican Popes issue are for today or not. Much confussion, and understandably so. Once again no clarification to the laity who abide by the old edits and such... and no not those which are null and void now, changed or altered to make more palatible. Seems they are always having to explain themselves.
It seems the RCC today is not the RCC of the first century.
There was far more extensive and continuous use of Scriptures in the public service of the early Church than there is among us. - [Addis and Arnold, Catholic Dictionary, The Catholic Publication Society, 1887, page 509]
Our present convenient compendiums — the Missal, Breviary, and so on were formed only at the end of a long evolution. In the first period (lasting perhaps till about the fourth century) there were no books except the Bible, from which lessons were read and Psalms were sung. Nothing was written, because nothing was fixed. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 9, page 296]
Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. -[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]
On the other hand up to the end of the fourth century, there were practically no infallible definitions available.
[Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2]
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Do tell.......
It is largely an official paper unity no greater than cults who rely upon the same means, that of implicit trust in an office that is effectively superior to Scripture, while what is effectually conveyed and fostered is liberalism with the primary concern that you die in the arms of Rome, whom it is supposed will take care of the rest.
I was reading the code of canon today....and the heirarchy...additionally when and who established the Pope’s authority,..(which that in itself changed with the tide).... I was trying to find an answer if catholics see their church as law. Only to find, as with everything else, varying degrees of law to who oversees these etc. It’s all bundled up into a huge mish mash of “stuff”...and they differ along the way...not to mention certain things are on and off again like a lightbulb.
So yes...very much like the cults....and basically the laity pledges their minds and will to obeying, but I think few take that pledge seriously, for that matter those in leadership.
Verily I say unto you.
THERE WAS NO PUNCTUATION IN THE ORIGINALS.
And just because the punctuation is consistent doesn’t mean a thing.
Jesus died for our sins. Period. And I am so thankful for that.
It most certainly does not mean that I have never sinned.
“Protestants deny the existence of purgatory because they say that the only cleansing needed for salvation is the cleansing in the precious Blood of Jesus, poured out on the Cross for sinners. Catholics agree. The holy souls in purgatory are not experiencing a different or additional cleansing, but only the final effects of the one cleansing in the blood of Christ, since nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). Those who are being purified beyond death are not the unbelieving and the impenitent, who will go to hell; the souls in purgatory are those who have already been justified by grace and are at peace with God at their life’s end.
Protestants protest against purgatory, yet they have no objection to the idea that for their sins God sometimes allows Christians to endure both temporal judgments and deprivation of spiritual consolations. For example, the Presbyterian Westminster Confession (1646) says that true Christian believers may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (from John H. Leith, ed., Creeds of the Churches: A Reader in Christian Doctrine in the Bible to the Present (Richmond, Virginia: John Knox Press, 1973), p. 212). The Baptist Abstract of Principles (1859) says in a similar vein that believers may “fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves . . . “ (Leith, p. 342).”
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp
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