End Time: How Christians Lose

youtube ^ | Feb. 3, 2011 | "Molotov" Mitchell

[Rashputin]

Christ left us one Church.

The Catholic Church is that Church.

I will fellowship in and participate in that Church.

The odds of every saying, “Lord, Lord,” and hearing, “depart from me I never knew you” just seem smaller to me that way and I'm one of those silly people who actually has fear and trembling when I think about my salvation.

You don't think it makes any difference whether you go to the Church Christ himself left us. OK. Good. I hope that works out for you and I can see there are reasons you would think that it can work out just fine for you. I'm just a coward when I look into hell and you're not. Go fearlessly whichever way you like, but it's absurd on the face of it to accuse others of putting their faith in the wrong place because they think going to the Church Christ himself left is important.

Dat’s fine with me.

[carcraft]

Rasputin- The office of Bishop has changed since Christ left. A Celebrate priest hood is different than when Christ left. The idea of indulgences was a nice extra touch since Christ left. The idea that any one man was infallible is new since Christ left. Beatification of Saints is somewhat new. The whole hierarchy of the Church is new. I don't think Paul or Peter really had the idea of Pope in mind. So no it isn't the Church Christ left us.. I really feel that the Church Christ left us is to in communion with our Brothers and sisters in the truth of the Gospel as lead by the Holy Spirit. I really don't think that it is institutional. I don't think the destruction of the City by Hawkwood with the looting raping and pillaging is the idea Christ left us with. soldiers were paid by the spoils they could grab, and yes raping looting and killing of the Innocent were part and parcel of it. So fine you can be Catholic if that is where God leads you. I am Episcopalian now in a Church that preaches the Gospel and is involved in World Wide out reach. I hope I am am not judged because I am Episcopalian. Every institution of man is corrupt because power is involved and power corrupts. The Catholic Church had Hugh amounts of power and was highly corrupted.

[Rashputin]

Marcion herasy.

Read, pray, repeat.

have a nice day

[cinciella]

So this “Israel wins some major conflict at great and disproportionate cost in lives” bothers you more than if Israel were destroyed? And it would bother you because it would boost the confidence of the “prophecy pundits”?

You don’t see the possibility that God would be glorified by miraculously intervening in a war against Israel? I do, and His glory is far more important than how the “public face of the church is perceived by the world...”

[cinciella]

“Maybe, maybe not. The Church has been in as bad a shape before.”

Well, true. I was thinking of the current “emergent” church movement, to name one current apostasy that is growing within the church. I don’t see a “falling away” of dispensationalists as a group because of some end-time “failer”.

[Rashputin]

I haven't read much about the “emergent” stuff, although the dispensation view has always given me shivers due to the fact that save for a few Gnostic details it's almost identical to the Marcion heresy of old. Even the fact that it doesn't outright declare itself Gnostic doesn't carry much weight when you see surveys like the one "Christianity Today" took of Evangelical Dispensationalists in 1980 that showed only 43% of them would agree that Jesus is both fully human and fully God.

In what way does the emergent church go down the road to apostasy? Like I say, I haven't paid much attention to it.

[carcraft]

Uh???? I really think you have your heresy and heretics mixed up a little. I asked you about Isaiah in end time prophecy. No response from you. No I don't deny the old Testament Scripture and believe that the Jews are God's chosen people. When God Said “I will bless those that bless and curse those that curse my people” I think God probably meant it! I think that the Hebrew Scripture gives us an understanding of the God of Israel whom we worship. Why do you think I am of the Marcion Heresy..Good day to you to!

[carcraft]

Gnostic's believed in hidden knowledge. I think most of the dispensationalist publish who they came to their understanding of scripture and really don't feel like they are part of a chosen few who have special revelation etc. No we are not gnostics in any sense. Marcion Heresy isn't really will understood because most of the tests are lost except for criticism of it. My understanding is that they denied the God of Abraham. Isac and Jacob and the relevance of the Old Testament Scripture. Most of the dispenstionists also use Old Testament Scripture as I did to validate my beliefs. I think calling a belief a heresy with out really understanding the heresy is a little strange!

[carcraft]

meant to say how they came into their understanding of end time prophecy..sorry

[Lee N. Field]

I don’t see a “falling away” of dispensationalists as a group because of some end-time “failer”.

When prophecy fails, some leave. Others adjust their model. We've seen this before.

[Rashputin]

Dispensationalism isn't intrinsic to Rapture doctrine?

There is no difference, then, between the people who suffered for Christ for the past two thousand years and who would so suffer during the tribulation?

The tribulation itself isn't Christ removing his Church and dealing with the Jews alone as he did in an earlier dispensation and that isn't part of the doctrine supporting the Rapture?

You've never heard and agreed with Protestant pastors and others saying a specific parable from Christ himself really didn't apply to the Church Age?

You've never heard from Protestant pastors and others that some Scripture that quotes Christ doesn't apply to Christians in the Church Age because we are under grace and then they were under the law?

You've never learned or heard of the approaches to sharing your faith that never stray from Pauline texts?

You use the same books of the Bible that Christ did which are the books that were in the Septauagint?

Marcion didn't discard the OT and keep only the Pauline texts of the NT?

Since you're not a dispensationalist, then, you can't really agree with a great deal of the doctrine and usage of scripture that supports the Rapture. So, good, I'm glad to know we shed that Rapture business.

Have a nice day

[Rashputin]

I don't think you're a heretic. I think you're smart enough and well read enough to start digging when and if you realize how close dispensationalist doctrine is to that specific heresy. I also think that among all the dispensationalist and Rapture focused folks I know as well as the majority of Protestants I've ever known, it's actually interesting how much they're all focused on Paul, just as that particular heresy was.

I know it's dispensationalism isn't Gnostic although the entire marketing of it and the Rapture focus on engaging the mind the way Gnostics say is the only way to Salvation and knowledge. Rapture folks are just doing it out of some coincidence, not because they're Gnostic.

I'm pretty sure you're not Gnostic. I don't know that dispensationalist doctrine and the rapture that flows in part from that doctrine are much different in the way they approach Scripture. If fact I think it's a very bad indicator that they are so close to it in their approach to and use of Scripture. Like Luther adding “alone” to a verse to support his own theology. I get very worried when something begins by tampering with Scripture since that's how all cults and heresies start.

[carcraft]

Well Mr Rashputin- you avoid shell fish then? Stone people for adultery? And I am sure that you have two separate refriges in your house and keep a Kosher kitchen eh? I don't think you really know what Marcion heresy was because all manuscripts of it are lost. But what is your point? Yes we are under grace- The amazing grace that lead to my salvation! I told you earlier that I am a pan tribulationist-it all pans out in the end! I do believe in the possibility of the rapture because I believe that as the salt of the earth we preserve and need to be taken away to a better defensive position, so Satan and his followers can enter the killing ground of Armageddon.

[carcraft]

By the way, I don't deny any of the teachings of Christ or parables and have never heard a Pastor say this doesn't apply except for some of the dietary laws and corporal punishment laws like stoning. I know I am a sinner and fail all the time and need God's forgiveness-goes with out saying. But again what does Isaiah have to do with end times? Still haven't answered that one!

[Rashputin]

"Well Mr Rashputin you avoid shell fish then? Stone people for adultery? " It that's honestly the sort of thing you think I'm talking about, then there isn't anything else to say.

[Rashputin]

I thought you were talking about 46 which is sometimes tied to Danial and Revelation.

43 is a part of the prophecy that Babylon will take the Jews into captivity, specifically it includes the promise that they will be brought back to the promised land after they have been punished for the years they did not set aside as they were told to. From that exile you get the “Danials 70 years”, etc., and so on, as I'm sure you well know.

Now I really have to go stone a neighbor to death so just think whatever you like about whatever you like. You are, after all, your own final authority in all things.

[Faith-Hope]

I have a question: I have always been taught that when we die we either go to heaven or hell at the time of our deaths. This summer we were at a visiting church and the pastor preached on the second coming. This is where most Christains believe that all believers will rise up from the dead and meet Jesus in the sky. If we have already departed this earth and been with the Lord why would we rise from the dead and meet Jesus? Some believe that when Christ returns he will stay for a thousand years.

[The Unknown Republican]

When believers die, most Protestants believers understand that our souls go to heaven immediately; only our physical bodies perish.

The rising you speak of (1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 20) describes how we will be reunited with our perfected physical bodies during the resurrection to live in the new heaven and new earth at the end. So the “rising” is merely the act of resurrection of the perfected body that will happen when we rise up to meet Christ in the air.

There is debate over when that will happen, but agreement that it will at some point. Non-believers will also be resurrected before facing final judgment.

[Friendofgeorge]

Let me give it a go. The next event other than our own deaths, is the Rapture, this could happen at any moment.

Jesus will appear in the sky and the dead in Christ shall rise first, followed by those of us that have accepted Christ but not yet tasted physical death (the lucky ones that never experience the physical death, wouldn`t that be something!)

The next thing is the judgment seat of Christ, this is only for people that have already accepted Christ,Salvation is not at issue here, only answering for our lives. The judgment Seat of Christ is only for believers.

Next is the Rise of Anti Christ, it will not be known to anybody his identity until after the rapture, he will have already been in the world, but not known to anybody.

Unparalleled trouble

Jesus returns to the Earth for 1000 year reign

Final judgment, this is only for those that rejected Christ

The New world

As for going to heaven the moment we physically die, or hell the moment we die.

We know that Jesus said to the man on the cross beside him, Today you will be with me in Paradise. Apostle St Paul said he would sooner die and go be with the Lord right away, many other scriptures support that.

Others believe as it says..the dead in Christ will rise first. meaning it might not be instantly.

I personally believe that it`s right away we are in the presence of the Lord.

Many Evangelical theologians believe both ways.

According to Radio Bible Class study (Daily Bread) nobody is currently in hell, and will not be until the final judgment.

Theologians think both ways on this to a degree.

No I am not a Theologian, just sharing what I have been studying over time.

Pat Robertson, David Mainse and a whole bunch of Christian pastors from various Christian denominations discussed this very issue.

When you die with Christ you have nothing to fear or worry about.