Posted on 02/27/2011 8:08:19 PM PST by Natural Law
Faith Without Works? Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible? Is anyone as mystified as I am at this contradictory and unbiblical Calvinist “Sola Fide” idea that faith without works is sufficient for salvation? How can Calvinists reject James Chapter 2 which states that; “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14) and "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). To do so is antithetical to Scripture.
The Calvinist rejection of James is at best substitutional, permitting Calvinists to conclude that works naturally follow from and are only a result of true faith thus requiring no conscious commitment or consideration. The result is a negation of the call to Beatitude and a rejection of the obligations of the Second Greatest Commandment issued by Jesus Himself.
Borrowing from Hinduism many fringe Calvinists actually practice a form of the Brahiminst caste system in which they profess that their own Salvation was secure from the beginning of time and no obligation exists toward the less fortunate and needy because God rejected their election from the beginning of time.
The substitution of actual, contextual Scripture for the more flattering personal interpretations is a return to the Gnostic heresies that the Church successfully rejected more than a thousand years earlier. They attempt to seek truth through Scripture on their own despite the admonition of Peter who stated; “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).
Faith alone is insufficient. Adam and Eve had faith yet fell. They spoke directly with God yet succumbed to sin. What about Paul, whom many Calvinists give greater credence than Jesus, when he says; "And if I should have prophesy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13: 2).
Perhaps the citations some will more closely identify with; the demons whom Jesus expelled.
"And behold they [the demons] cried out saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8: 29).
The demons had faith certainly equal to that of the Calvinists. Not only do they profess that Jesus is the Son of God, but they also have a profound knowledge of Scripture and profess belief in the final judgment. Peter didn’t profess that Christ is the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-- eight chapters later. Why didn’t Jesus didn't make the demons the rock on which He built His Church? He required Works to build His Church.
1John8" If WE(Christians) claim to be without sin, WE(Christians) deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us(CHRISTIANS). 9 If WE(Christians) confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive US(Christians) our sins and purify US(Christians) from all unrighteousness. 10 If WE(Ditto) claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
We and Us are Christians in the above for you to say otherwise is wrong.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.Do you believe that the 1st day was not a 24-hour day and that the subsequent days were 24-hour days?
I have given you the exact words from the exact writings of +Augustine.
He was not a sola fide proponent. +Augustine taught what the Church teaches -- that we are saved by grace. There is no "only faith" in his beliefs.
Here are the key points of what I posted above and what Augustine wrote:
"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penanceAugustine says that Baptism was instituted for all sins, meaning that
Now, if the wicked man were to be saved by fire on account of his faith only, and if this is the way the statement of the blessed Paul should be understood--"But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire"--then faith without works would be sufficient to salvation. But then what the apostle James said would be false. And also false would be another statement of the same Paul himself: "Do not err," he says; "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the unmanly, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."This is clearly against the error of sola fide
Now, If you say "only faith", then you say that James was wrong, that means you say that the Bible is wrong -- and THAT :) is wrong +Augustine quotes +Paul saying Paul himself: "Do not err," he says; "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the unmanly, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God." --> so even if these have faith and do not show the works of faith, they will not be saved
| Dear circlecity, It is not saved by faith alone -- we are saved by grace alone. it is the grace of God that has saved us through Christ's one-time sacrifice on the Cross. Scripture emphasises that it is not a "Lord, Lord, I believe" and zoom, but an actual change, a "work" of acceptance and repentence that is needed. We are told in Phil 2:12 to 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. and beyond this in many Biblical passages we're told that we must do something beyond just saying I believe. Jesus Himself said inMatt. 7:21
Matt 10:22
we must "endure" in our Faith to the end, not reject our God-given salvation We are asked to confess, to repent in Rom. 10:9
AND, we are told that Baptism is also critical in 1 Pet. 3:21
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I'm sorry, but that is a non-sequitor. The Bible clearly says in Ezekiel 33:12-16 that we can lose our salvation in this life.
God has promised us eternal life
These are not contradictions as the Bible does not contradict itself. Our eternal life "if we endureth to the end" is eternal, as God has promised. Yet Matt 10:22
| 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. |
Cvengr: Who would then qualify? Not the sinner, because a sinner doesn’t follow the path of God’s Plan, he has missed the target. Is it the sinner who returns to God after having lost his salvation? --> I'm sorry, cv, but you are mistakenly believing that your works can save you, they can't -- if you work and do not believe, do not have faith, you can't be saved. If you have faith and do not display this in your deeds and works, then, well, demons too have faith, yet they have not good works.
A sinner who returns to God after having lost his salvation can regain this -- remember he does not win his own salvation, he only gets it by believing in Christ who has provided the salvation.
An analogy is a parent freely giving, well, candy to a 2 year old. The 2 year old does not do anything to deserve this, yet gets it from the loving parent. If the 2 year old loses it and does not ask for this again, they have none. If the 2 year old asks for it, he/she gets it again. Our God is a loving God
Cvengr: because that would require the perfect sacrifice to be offered again -- sorry, again a non-sequitor, the perfect one-time sacrifice is done, finished. It's out there, the salvation, the grace, just waiting for us to accept it. If we accept it and later reject it (like the righteous man in Eze 33), God is gracious enough to allow us to come back and re-accept it.
Cvengr: So if it is possible for anybody to lose salvation, nobody will have it because 1) we are all sinners, and 2) since God knew this from eternity past, and if this is what He really meant, then He has been a liar to man all along, making any promise he has given to not be trustworthy.
Yes, we are all sinners and yes, God foreknows all. He knows those who will accept and those who will not, he knows those who will accept and then reject and those who accept-reject and then accept again. This takes away nothing from His omnipotence or omnipresence. This takes away nothing from His freely offered grace of salvation.
God's promise is in Mark 16:16
| 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. |
| 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” |
Cvengr: So who follows and accepts salvation may be lost? Those who lack faith in Christ and His work on the Cross. Not "lack faith", but loses faith --> and remember that faith can be regained, just as the 2 year old can pluck up the courage to ask for more of the freely offered salvation
you disbelieve this? Go read the OPC website where it says According to the OPC OrthoPresbyterianC: "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. "
Enjoy arguing with them
The Calvinists have made their deity a deity that creates evil.
By saying this you have made God into a monster who DECIDES on creating evil.
Since they do that, they hence believe their deity has evil in Him.
If God created evil than evil is part of the essence of God.Thus,by this belief Christ has evil in Him as part of His essence since the second person of the Trinity is God incarnate.
Horrific! Don't you even see the error in all this?
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’Do you want to say that Ezekiel is wrong?
13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.
16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
Are you saying that you believe James to be uninspired? Or what do you mean by this?
Check it again. These aren't Ezekiel's words.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2653570/posts?page=164
| 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[c] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” |
Asking them to believe in eating the literal body and blood of Christ!
[41] Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.+James has clearly stated and +Paul agreed sayind "But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" and "Do not err," he says; "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the unmanly, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."[42] And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
[43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
[44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
[45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
[46] It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
so do you think that both Paul and James were written only to Jews?
Do you accept the Tanakh instead of the Septuagint?
They asked Him for a sign, saying that Moses gave them manna in the desert. If Jesus (according to them) was aspiring to the level of Moses, He should do something as big as that.
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
And now the crowd is openly rebellious saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Note -- Jesus doesn't clear up the Metaphor, like he did in Matt. 16:5–12
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.
5 When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread.So, Jesus DOES indicate when it is a metaphor and when it isn't.
6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?
9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
You cannot say that this was just bread and wine of that this is a metphor for coming and having faith in the Lord or some kind of metphor for believing in Christ because of the reaction of the Jews and the very language -- to eat one's flesh and drink the blood means to do violence on some one. You see it even in Hindi where a threat is "Mein tera Khoon pie jaongaa" or "I will drink your blood" -- and this is among vegetarians! To drink a persons blood means a serious threat of injury.So, if you believe that this was just a metphor, you mean to say that Christ is rewarding people for crucifying Him?!! That's nonsensical, sorry.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”...
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Jesus repeats the rebuke against just thinking in terms of human logic (Calvin's main problem) by saying
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
Just using human logic as Calvinist thought does, without God's blessings behind it fails in grace.John 6:63 does not refer to Jesus's statement of his own flesh, if you read in context but refers to using human logic instead of dwelling on God's words.
John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
and also 1 Cor 11:27-29
6 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
How clear can Paul get? "The bread IS a participation in the body of Christ" and "who eats the bread... will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" This is not just mere bread and wine anymore. This is the body and blood of Christ.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
The first printing press in Europe was by a devout Catholic, Gutenburg -- no opposition to the printing press at all. Where do you dig up your history? From the Big book of David Koresh?
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