Posted on 03/20/2011 12:54:27 AM PDT by count-your-change
Was Mary, Jesus' mother and wife of Joseph, immaculately conceived, i.e., free of original sin from conception? If we accept the teaching of the Scriptures we must answer, "No". The Bible is not ambiguous on this subject as the inspired writer, the apostle of Christ, Paul, wrote at Romans 5:12: "Well then, sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned".(JB)
Mary was part of the human race and grew old and died just as Paul wrote.
As The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the topic, "Immaculate Conception" says, "Genesis 3:15 No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically."
Thus, while admitting an "immaculate conception" for Mary is not Scriptural an attempt is made to connect it with Genesis 3:15, an interpretation that "cannot be defended critically". "the woman" of Gen. 3:15 was not Mary, yet further along in the article Mary is termed the "second Eve" and 1 Cor. 15:22 is referred to, which reads:
"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive".
Mary explains how God would be her savior and that of Israel by fulfilling His promise to Abraham. (Luke 1:54).
Amen & Amen!
I agree, Mary was to be honored and highly favored among women, but she also needed a Saviour. And the child she conceived by the Holy Spirit was her Saviour.
It’s obvious from Scripture, eh? We have a rahter impressive collection of works by ll sorts of Christian writers from about 50 A.D. to 500 A.D.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
Find me a SINGLE one of those writers—most of whom read the Scriptures *in the original*—who makes the point made here: that Mary was NOT immaculately conceived.
Good luck. You’ll need it.
By the way, no one is arguing she didn’t need a savior. She said so herself that she did.
The question is how was she saved. I can save you by a pulling you out of a ditch. I can also save you by preventing you from falling into it in the first place.
Prove to me that there are not little green men on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri.
Because an Englishman has not traversed there and named them.
If Mary was immaculately concieved, it would have been by the Holy Spirit, which would have made her God as Jesus is God.
The question is how was she saved."
You've answered your own question.
If she needed a Savior, then she was saved by Christ's death for our sins, burial, and resurrection.
Find a single WRITER of those originals that make the point that Mary WAS immaculately conceived.
p.s., I don’t believe in luck.
Cute. Except I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative. Then I would have said "prove that NONE of the Church Fathers believed this."
I asked someone to prove that ONE of the Church Fathers believed this.
Exactly. And that's precisely what the solemn definition of the dogma said:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
Wrong.
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
Read what you just wrote, again.
When and where is Mary removed from the curse of Adam?
"And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of (the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: My wounds stank, and were corrupt, because of my foolishness. But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold." Hippolytus, Fragments from the Scriptural Commentaries of Hippolytus, [A.D. 235]"
"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one" (Origen, Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (St. Ambrose, Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).
"Now with the exception of the holy Virgin Mary in regard to whom, out of respect for the Lord, I do not propose to have a single question raised on the subject of sin -- after all, how do we know what greater degree of grace for a complete victory over sin was conferred on her who merited to conceive and bring forth Him who all admit was without sin -- to repeat then: with the exception of this Virgin, if we could bring together into one place all those holy men and women, while they lived here, and ask them whether they were without sin, what are we to suppose that they would have replied?" (St. Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
There are others as well.
I read it quite carefully. What does *in view of" the merits of Jesus Christ mean, if not before it?
She was "removed" from the curse of Adam at conception. Although removed is a bad word..."prevented from assuming" the curse of Adam would be better.
God is not bound by time as well you know.
Well said Claud.
Mary did need a Saviour. And she got one: her Son.
None of your evidence is from the Word of God. You seem to put more faith in men than in God’s Word.
That is a mistake, brother. :-)
Mary never doubted God?
Well, let's see the Biblical proof?
Her father, and his father and so on, must have been better than the rest of us.
No, wait a minute...that would lead us back to Adam.
Silly me, what am I thinking.
Got a Greek New Testament handy? Open up to Luke 1:28. The Angel says to Mary “Kaire (Hail), kecharitomene”. Look up kecharitomene. It’s a perfect passive participle based on the word charitoo, “to bestow grace”. It literally means “she-who-has-been-completely-graced”. The perfect tense in Greek is used for completed actions. Actions that are finished.
Now think about the implication of that. The bestowing of grace of Mary was complete. Finished. if she had sin in her, how is that possible?
The idea of an immaculate conception for Mary is not found in the Scriptures. period.
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