Posted on 04/16/2011 7:28:34 PM PDT by RaceBannon
okay, try post 59 or 60, there it is!
I care.
Why?
Because scripture clearly records Jesus speaking of three days and three nights in the tomb.
Can’t get that out of Friday afternoon till Sunday. No way, no how.
And it matters, because in order to accept a Friday crucifixion, we have to agree that scripture is inaccurate. We have to invent excuses to make our notions work.
It’s not necessary.
Just go read what the recorded gospels say, with new eyes. Forget tradition.
Here’s what happened, according to scripture:
The Lamb of God rode into Jerusalem on Sunday in a procession similar to that ceremony in which the ceremonial passover lamb was traditionally presented at the Temple prior to the feast. The ceremonial lamb would be on display at the Temple during Passover week, prior to the sacrifice.
The Lamb of God would spend those days teaching at the Temple, on display, so to speak.
On the afternoon of Preparation Day for the Passover, as faithful Jews and priests began to perform the sacrificial ritual of killing spotless lambs in the Temple, the true Lamb was dying nailed to a cross on the outskirts of town.
The lamb’s throat would be cut, the blood drained into bowls and passed to the altar. Singers accompanied the ritual. Smelly, nasty, necessary — and then it got dark.
It got dark like night, and it wasn’t an eclipse. The Passover full moon was on the other side of the earth. Then the ground shook, and cracked, and the tall curtain that separated the High Priest’s innermost court from the public torn from top to bottom. Not bottom to top, for men could do that. Top to bottom.
A Passover to remember, a nightmare scene. Never in the history of humanity had mankind so completely missed the boat, rejecting the Son of God to cling to their rites and roles.
The city grew quiet, the Passover Sabbath the next day on which no one could work, followed by the weekly sabbath. Three dark days, one of sacrifice, two of quiet, probably among earthquake damage that couldn’t be cleaned up, an unnerved populace unsure of what has happened.
Then Sunday morning dawns, and a new era of grace and mercy. The ultimate sacrifice has been made, those of us choosing to stand under the blood-covered doorposts passed-over forever.
Like our savior, death may claim our bodies, but we triumph in the end.
Yes you are correct. I just didn’t think that anyone was willing to argue the obvious and split hairs so to speak.
I wasn’t trying to rag on you, sorry, but what you typed opened a door to what this thread is about
limiting what is important, Just Jesus Death for us?
Which Day was He crucified?
It leads to leaving out ALL the truths God spoke, when we celebrate the wrong day, we deny what God said!
3 days in the tomb, 3 full days, no excuses, and a Friday crucifixion denies that completely, it also denies the order of days for the Passover Lamb to be presented and killed for the Passover, Christ being our final sacrifice for Sin.
I do not understand your question. How does one elevate Christ's own WORDS? Either He meant what He said or He was just passing time with empty chatter. Now personally speaking, Jonah getting swallowed up in an obviously 'special' creature created to get the attention of the peoples of Nineveh whose 'god' was a fish god called Dagon was done for and by Divine purpose. Christ made Jonah one and the same as the 'Gospel' by quoting from and likening Himself as serving the same purpose.
Christ Himself made the events of and in Jonah's purpose and life journey more than just an allegory or myth.
We are not told the exact hour in which the tomb was vacated. What we are told is that when the women came to check before the dawn on the first day of the week the tomb was empty.
But we are told by Peter that while in the tomb IPeter 3:18- chapter 4 that Christ in particular 3:19 (I am not going to type it all) 19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water... 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Now my 'guess' is that upon completion of the 72 hours is when the resurrection took place and there was no 'flesh' being around to witness the action of Christ emptying the literal tomb. After all Christ demonstrated His resurrected body by going through that wall. The wall was real but His physical body was no longer in flesh held by gravity disposition.
In Matthew 20:19 Christ specifically says that the third day is the day he will rise again.
He says the same in Mark 9:31 and 10:34. Also Luke 18:33.
So the question is: by what authority does Matthew 12:40 overrule Matthew 20:19 or Mark 10:34? Why is this one verse superior to all others?
And the other, related, question is whether there is more to Matthew 12:40 than meets the eye?
The time of death took place during the day on what we now call Wednesday. It took hours to get Him down off the cross, His body prep and the tomb closed. Two different times are being discussed. We are NOT told the exact time the tomb was closed but that He was to be in the tomb, the *three days and three nights* as described likened to the only 'sign' that had already been given like Jonah.
Now every Christian should know that when the flesh body dies, instantly the 'soul/spirit' returns to the Maker that sent it. That comes from way back to Solomon in Ecclesastiaes 12. So literally what was 'dead' was the flesh body and it was the flesh body that was placed in the tomb. The Spirit of Christ never died, only His flesh vessel that was entombed.
And we are NOT told the hour when this 3 days and 3 nights began, and we are NOT told exactly when it ended. Only that His flesh body would be entombed for that amount of time. And we are told when the women went to check on Him and He was already gone.
Two different subjects are described, death of the flesh on the cross and the time His literal body was to be sealed in the tomb.
However, every place else the chronology of the resurrection is mentioned, it is on the third day. Not the fourth.
Your timeline is based purely and solely on your personal interpretation of one verse. I ask again: why does Matthew 12:40 have more authority than Matthew 20:19?
If we are to accept your thesis that Matthew 12:40 overrules Matthew 20:19, we need to know why.
Let us set the record straight. I did NOT write Matthew 12:40 and the WORDS recorded say the following.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This is Christ speaking, not me, and there is NO need for anyone to interpret what is said. IT is a declaration, plain and simple.
Matthew 20:19 does NOT change the three days and three nights as was Jonah in the whale's belly. Day three would be on Saturday right up until the clock struck the instant of the sun setting. The NEW day (first day of the week) began AT sun set.
And given the night after the cruifixation was a 'holy' day the burial staff would have done everything they could to have Him entombed BEFORE the 'sun set'.
Yeah, we know all that. And the Romans were just tourists.
” . . . today is the third day since these things were done.” Luke 24:21, spoken by Cleopas (or his companion) on the road to Emmaus the afternoon of resurrection day.
I’m with you, wideawake. Jesus rose the the third day not the fourth. No small point as this is the GOSPEL, 1 Cor. 15 makes it part of the gospel message, verse four says,
1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The answer to the three days and nights, this was a Jewish idiom. Any part of the day standing for the whole day (and night).
Here is another point. The early church fathers, without exception, said that Jesus rose on the third day, making the first day of the week to be commemorative of Jesus’ resurrection.
They would have understood Jewish idioms a lot better than these modern day interpreters. They lived almost two thousand years closer to the resurrection event than these modern day interpreters. I’d follow them before I would these modern day Sabbatarians.
So the sun sets and then sets again on Thursday. One day. Then it sets on Friday. Two days. Then it sets on Saturday. Three days "in the heart of the earth." Then, after the sun sets on Saturday - in other words, on the fourth day - He rises.
We are left with the same problem: everywhere else in Scripture He rises on the third day, not the fourth.
Starting the timeline on Wednesday does not resolve that difficulty. If He is "in the heart of the earth" for three entire chronological days, He does not rise on the third day - He is "in the heart of the earth" that entire day.
I completely agree with your timetable, Race; and I am not a member of ANY organized religion...just seeking the Truth. Jesus crucified late on Wednesday; He rose late on Saturday.
That is probably the most important piece of evidence - the recognition of Sunday as the day of worship over Saturday (sabbath) early in the life of the Church. We can quibble in the 21st century over days, hours, Jewish idioms, etc - but the fact that Sunday became the day of worship is undeniable - centuries before it was cautified by later church councils.
Agreed... the passover was a high sabbath ..and because the day of passover changes year to year we really do not know the day..BUT we do know that the day Jesus died was the day the passover lamb was slain.. It appears that Jesus celebrated the passover meal early??
Thanks Race The days set by Rome never made sense ... This is a good piece of research...just one question..the jews have almost a perpetual calender, can we go back to check the dates?
Ignatius was one of the earliest witnesses after the apostles of worship on the first day of the week. He contrasted the seventh day, the Jewish Sabbath, with the first day of the week, the day Christ resurrected:
“Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness…But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space…let every friend of Christ keep THE LORD’S DAY as a festival, THE RESURRECTION-DAY, the queen and chief of all the days.”
He wrote: “If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but LIVING IN OBSERVANCE OF THE LORD’S DAY...”
Ignatius was referring to the old covenant when he said, “brought up in the ancient order of things” He was arguing that since the early Jewish church kept “the Lord’s day,” meaning the first day of the week when Christ was resurrected, we should do likewise.
These quotes indicate personal knowledge by Ignatius that the early church came to see the day of Jesus’ resurrection as a special day for Christians. It was the day set apart for resurrection observance. No doubt Ignatius’ term “the Lord’s Day,” originated with John in Rev. 1:10. By the time John wrote Revelation, very late in the first century, it must have become commonplace to refer to the first day of the week as “the Lord’s Day.”
AntiChristmas?
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