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Where is the Outrage? (protestant pedophiles)
stop baptist predators ^ | 01-01-2011 | staff

Posted on 04/22/2011 10:27:57 PM PDT by bronxville

So many Baptist clergy could not possibly get away with so much abuse unless many others were complicit in turning a blind eye. Why do Baptist leaders tolerate the presence of ministerial colleagues who sexually abuse the young and vulnerable? Why do people in the pews not rise up and demand that their leaders be held accountable? Where's the outrage?

Why don't people at Bellevue Baptist in Memphis demand the resignation of Pastor Steve Gaines, who admittedly kept quiet about a staff minister's sexual abuse of a kid?

Why don't people at Trinity Baptist demand the resignation of Pastor Tom Messer, about whom there is significant evidence that he knew of a minister's serial sexual abuse of kids?

Why do so many people act as though clergy-abuse cover-ups are no big deal?

In my own case, the church finally made a written apology, but only after first threatening me and then seeking a secrecy agreement and finally being forced into an apology by a lawsuit. An apology extracted in a lawsuit (and handed off by their attorney) doesn’t carry the feeling of any genuine remorse, but it does constitute an acknowledgement of the truth. Their ministerial staff knew all along that this man had molested me as a kid. Yet, they tried every means possible to avoid owning up to that truth. And they didn’t bother to warn people in the pews of other congegations - people whose kids were at risk.

The apology was arrived at only after hours of hammering out the language in a court-ordered mediation session. “Churches should respond with righteous outrage and anger at such crimes against kids committed by church leaders they trust,” says the church. Well gee....doesn't that sound nice? But where is that outrage?

Even now, has anything changed? Have any of those who covered up and kept quiet about the abuse been held accountable?

The church’s music minister, James A. Moore, knew about it for 30 years and kept quiet. He was apparently content to leave countless other kids at risk. Yet, he is still the church’s music minister. Where’s the outrage?

The pastor of the church, Sam Underwood, is a man who was himself reported on allegations of sexually abusing a congregant. He showed his style of leadership when he shepherded the church to respond to my report of child molestation by having the church’s attorney threaten to sue me and insult my family (as though the fact that I grew up with a father who still suffered post-WWII combat trauma could somehow make the psychological injury of a minister’s sexual abuse not such a big deal). Even if church members see no need for accountability as to the adult congregant’s abuse report (presumably because they accept the deacons’ view that it was mere “sexual misconduct”), that would still leave a lack of accountability for Underwood’s failure of appropriate leadership when confronted with a substantiated report about one of the church's ministers who had sexually abused a minor. Yet, the man who chose hostility rather than compassion is still the pastor. The man who chose to threaten a child molestation victim rather than to protect others is still the pastor. The man who attempted to compel secrecy rather than reach out to other victims is still the pastor. Where is there any accountability. Where are there any consequences for such awful and immoral behavior? Where’s the outrage?

And what about the leaders at the Baptist General Convention of Texas? Was anyone there outraged at the fact that their long-time attorney threatened to sue a clergy abuse victim even when the abuse was readily substantiated? It certainly doesn’t appear that way. Where is the outrage?

And what about the fact that he tried to compel secrecy by pushing a confidentiality agreement while leaving the perpetrator in the pulpit? Were BGCT leaders bothered by that? Apparently not. In an even more recent case involving the same BGCT attorney, a secrecy agreement was used once again, while the perpetrator was allowed to remain in the pulpit. (Of course, most of the time, when a secrecy agreement is used, you'll never hear about it at all -- that's the whole point of it.) Where’s the outrage?

And what about the fact that a man with a substantiated report of having sexually molested a kid was still standing in the pulpit of a Florida mega-church talking about his children’s ministry even after 18 Baptist leaders had been informed? Those men are still in leadership positions. Where is there any accountability for the willing blindness of Baptist leaders who leave kids in harm’s way for clergy predators? Where is the outrage?

It is easy enough to look at the perpetrators and say therein lies the problem. But what about all the enablers? What about the many leaders who turn a blind eye and allow clergy molesters to move on to other churches where they find fresh new prey? Where is the outrage?


TOPICS: Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abuse; childabuse; pedophile; pedophiles; protestantpedophiles; protestantpredators; stopbaptistpredators; whereistheoutrage
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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- Penn State professor Philip Jenkens reported that between 2 to 3 percent of Protestant clergy are pedophiles. His same study reported that less than 1.7 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles. There is simply no reason to think that clergy child molesters are solely a Catholic problem. - *The results of this survey were reported in the book, Ministerial Ethics by Joe Trull and James Carter (2d ed. 2004), and in The Baptist Standard editorial, “Churches must act to prevent clergy sexual abuse,” 4/22/2002. - (source: The voice of SNAP Baptist - http://stopbaptistpredators.org/alarmingnumbers.html
1 posted on 04/22/2011 10:28:00 PM PDT by bronxville
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To: bronxville

Welcome to a collection of news reports on ministers who have sexually abused children:

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 “Bible” Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers

*** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is available here without profit to people who want to read it for research and educational purposes. If you quote from this, please check (if possible) and acknowledge the ORIGINAL source. *** This service is provided by volunteers for non-profit.
http://www.reformation.com/

Baptist Hide and Seek

[...]Remember: Most clergy child molesters have never been convicted of anything. Of all the Catholic priests who have been removed from ministry, only 3 percent were able to be criminally prosecuted and only 2 percent were ever jailed. If Catholics themselves had not taken action - finally - over 700 child molesting priests would still be working in ministry. The largest Protestant denomination needs to do something about this problem as well.[...]
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/BaptistHideSeek.html

Compare the stats!


2 posted on 04/22/2011 10:38:25 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

You know you are talking to a bunch of dope smokers?


3 posted on 04/22/2011 10:38:34 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: bronxville
Sauce for the Goose...


4 posted on 04/22/2011 10:41:51 PM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: bronxville

There is none. Absolutely on outrage unless it is a Roman Catholic Priest.
There is no outrage when it is a teacher from the Government sponsored schools.
There is no outrage if is a health care worker or social worker employed by Government.

Yet all of these sources, that interact with children are prone to the same levels of abuse.

Perhaps it is not identifiable by religion or vocation... perhaps it is human fallibility and parents should be aware that a human can fail on a “personal” level.. nothing else... personal choices.


5 posted on 04/22/2011 10:44:45 PM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

At least it’ll be documented as a future source which will probably occur within a day or two. What I’m actually trying to do is get them to understand that the homosexual-pedophilia atrocities are being used against the Catholic Church as leverage by the Marxists to weaken the Judeo-Christian religion as a whole. They fail to understand that they’re next...they kinda remind me of the dope-smoking leftist tools.


6 posted on 04/22/2011 10:49:09 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: antceecee

I hate to say that FR has become a Catholic bashing site in the Religion Forum.


7 posted on 04/22/2011 10:50:37 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: bronxville

Pedophiles are attracted to any profession that gives them authority over and/or access/entrust them to children. They become priests, ministers, teachers, principals, police officers, and various other positions that give them access. This is no indictment of any of these professions, but rather evidence of how widespread wickedness is.


8 posted on 04/22/2011 10:51:19 PM PDT by Choozer
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To: antceecee

I’m in total agreement with all your points.


9 posted on 04/22/2011 10:51:35 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

So true. The Catholic Church was recognized by Ronald Reagan as a driving force in destroying the Soviet Union. I didn’t see any Presbyterians doing jack.


10 posted on 04/22/2011 10:53:51 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: bronxville

With the Catholic Church you have keep in mind that when you are The Real Deal then all the attacks are aimed at you.

Exactly like you say because they want to take you down and taking down the second or third is not as satisfying but eventually they will be next.


11 posted on 04/22/2011 10:55:31 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: buccaneer81
I hate to say that FR has become a Catholic bashing site in the Religion Forum.

I noticed the same thing. In fact, the entire site has gone down hill over the past few years.

12 posted on 04/22/2011 10:56:00 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Shemp was the Fourth Stooge of the Apocalypse.)
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To: antceecee; bronxville

“There is none. Absolutely on outrage unless it is a Roman Catholic Priest.”

The Catholic argument, “See! others are doing it also!” is getting a little old - in addition to being morally sickening.

I’ve read articles on one of the incidents listed in the post. Seems like there was PLENTY of outrage at Bellevue. Members were calling for the Pastor’s resignation. A prominent seminary in Memphis called for him to step down. Members were shocked and outraged.


13 posted on 04/22/2011 10:59:22 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Jeff Chandler

Yep. Ten years ago it was a whole different scene. We still have great FReepers, but some other great FReepers have packed it in. And I’m not talking about RINOs who supported Rudy or Mitt. I’m talking about the ones who left on their own, because they saw the nastiness. Too many mouth breathers are on board today. I’d like to reverse that trend.


14 posted on 04/22/2011 11:03:52 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: bronxville

Out of curiousity, are there any breakdown numbers as to boy vs. girl Protestant abuse victims?


15 posted on 04/22/2011 11:04:42 PM PDT by TheDingoAteMyBaby
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To: buccaneer81

Hi again buccaneer. They’ve posted three threads on old homosexual-pedophilia in the Catholic Church within 36 hours - something one might expect the rabid Christian-hating Marxists to dredge up yet especially during Holy Week but they didn’t...makes one wonder.


16 posted on 04/22/2011 11:07:09 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

The Southern Baptist Convention’s Unconvincing Claims as to Why It Cannot Effectively Report or Prevent Clergy Child Abuse – and How Insurance Companies Can Exert Pressure to Ensure Better Systems

By MARCI HAMILTON

Thursday, Jun. 12, 2008

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has recently proven why it is that children are at risk for sexual abuse in our society: It’s easier not to protect them, and especially easy to issue ineffectual platitudes while looking the other way.

According to the Associated Press, the SBC has concluded that its decentralized structure of independent churches makes it impossible for it to establish a website of pastors credibly accused of child sexual abuse, or even to require the reporting of such crimes to the police. Yes, you read that right: The SBC is citing these lame procedural reasons for not taking the most basic steps to protect children from devastating abuse that can have repercussions that leave victims suffering for a lifetime (and that severely taxes society in medical and other resources).

In this column, I’ll rebut the Convention’s claims that policing and reporting abuse is an impossible task to put on its shoulders, and also describe how change in this quarter needs to come from what may seem like an unlikely source: the insurance industry.
[...]
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20080612.html

Sorry but this Protestant Pastor disagrees with you. He also believes Child Molestations by Pastors are being covered up. What say you?


17 posted on 04/22/2011 11:11:24 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Let’s see, how’s it go:

But PM, aren’t you outraged at the accounts in the article? I don’t remember any outrage on FR about it. It’s covered up by the leadership as the article states, and the perps stay in position.

< / sarc >


18 posted on 04/22/2011 11:12:35 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: bronxville
Those 20 or so haters are not even remotely Christian. They can post all they want, but they represent no real Protestant church that I'm aware of.

What concerns me is that Jim Rob is apparently unaware of what's happening.

I'm going on 11 years here; it's almost like family, but if I get banned, it's a small price to pay for keeping the faith.

19 posted on 04/22/2011 11:13:49 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: TheDingoAteMyBaby

I didn’t do an exact count but it appears to be more boys than girls which leads us back to the homosexual-pedophilia aspect which is never mentioned by the media. Political Correctness is screwing up, not only this country, but the world.


20 posted on 04/22/2011 11:15:17 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: antceecee

100% agree


21 posted on 04/22/2011 11:22:11 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Agreed! If anyone in my church was known to be committing such evil I have no doubt the members would insist the perpetrator(s) be arrested and suspended from any ministerial duties. If convicted, they would be fired and other related churches would be made aware through a national registry - not just a "Baptist", "Methodist", etc. list. Other sins such as sexual involvement between consenting, but unmarried, adults is only a church issue if it is known to the people. Then there are Biblical rules to be followed and it includes expelling from fellowship those who refuse to repent from their sin. I would expect any person who was guilty of any gross sinful behavior be barred from holding a leadership position within the congregation even after he/she confessed and repented.

I question why the Catholic Church has NOT followed the Biblical guidelines and why so many Catholics seem to want to point the finger at other churches as if doing so takes the burden of correction from them. I wouldn't care how high the offender went in the chain if command. Those within the body of Christ have a moral mandate from God to be the face of Christianity to the world and to stand up for goodness and righteous living. It starts at the house of God.

22 posted on 04/22/2011 11:23:45 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: buccaneer81

Do you think they’re fakes? Leftie trolls? I honestly did wonder because no real Christian would carry on like them especially during Holy Week. And real CHristians would also get the message that we need to stay together against the upcoming onslaught on faithful Judeo-Christians. They just couldn’t be that dopey...

I enjoy discussions on religion but so many threads on pedophilia within hours is wayyyy beyond the pale.


23 posted on 04/22/2011 11:23:50 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: buccaneer81
I hate to say that FR has become a Catholic bashing site in the Religion Forum.

What I've noticed is that Free Republic has become more... um, lets say strident over the years, and if you notice, the sects of Protestantism that most bash Catholics are the ones that attract the more strident types.

24 posted on 04/22/2011 11:24:14 PM PDT by MichiganMan (Oprah: Commercial Beef Agriculture=Bad, Commercial Chicken Agriculture=Good...Wait, WTF???)
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To: boatbums

You both need to read post #17 and then respond otherwise neither of your responses are contributing anything useful to the discussion.


25 posted on 04/22/2011 11:26:32 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: buccaneer81
I hate to say that FR has become a Catholic bashing site in the Religion Forum.

So, what, you want to now turn it into a "Protestant" bashing site? Isn't the word "hypocrite"?

26 posted on 04/22/2011 11:26:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Really??? Point to MSM response to this. Must be nationwide to be credible... international to be absolutely stellar


27 posted on 04/22/2011 11:30:17 PM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: buccaneer81; Jeff Chandler
Too many mouth breathers are on board today. I’d like to reverse that trend.

So to "reverse that trend" you call people nasty names? How's that working for you so far?

28 posted on 04/22/2011 11:31:27 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

How about we become a site that only bashes the perpetrator? What a novel idea!
We could actually go after corruption on all levels, all organizations.. all will fear our watchful eyes. Never will happen...as all are entrenched in their own little kingdoms... wake up people... corruption is everywhere and it is because of individual personal choices made by individual people. How about going after that?


29 posted on 04/22/2011 11:35:31 PM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: boatbums

What do you think would work?


30 posted on 04/22/2011 11:37:59 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: boatbums

Thank you for proving my point. Some are drawn straight out of the den as the catch their breath.


31 posted on 04/22/2011 11:41:35 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Choozer
So true. As a parent you have to be so vigilant. As a Catholic, I have only come across fantastic, caring Priests but I remain ever watchful. I feel bad because the great Priests I know are looked at differently by some in the community that aren't Catholic and from what they think they know they assume all Priests are pedophiles. Our church speaks very openly about child abuse and each grade level attends a class, once a year with their parents, to discuss on an age appropriate level what molestation and child abuse is and the importance of reporting it.
32 posted on 04/22/2011 11:42:34 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: bronxville

Trolls for sure. Yet they own the FR Religion Forum. Very troubling. Real Americans don’t think like them.


33 posted on 04/22/2011 11:44:14 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: bronxville
I responded to this same kind of post several weeks ago because, as here, it left off what the SBC president said were the reasons for why a local registry was inadequate. He was not trying to avoid it but said he wanted one that could identify offenders across the board. What is to prevent a Baptist minister who is found guilty of child sexual abuse from going over to another Protestant denomination? If he/she is only listed in the SBC list the other church would not know about it. As it is, I would think that today no church would even think of hiring someone without a complete background check.

Does your church do that now? I would certainly hope so, three billion dollars is a pretty hard lesson.

34 posted on 04/22/2011 11:44:42 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
So, what, you want to now turn it into a "Protestant" bashing site?

I want it to be a non-bashing site with legitimate doctrinal arguments instead of the daily hate posted here.

35 posted on 04/22/2011 11:48:26 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: antceecee

Hey, I’m all for going after workers of evil - in all walks of life. What I would NOT like to see is the opportunity to debate beliefs and ideas taken away because some people get their feelings hurt too easily.


36 posted on 04/22/2011 11:49:11 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
So to "reverse that trend" you call people nasty names?

Are you admitting you're a mouthbreather?

37 posted on 04/22/2011 11:54:33 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: D-fendr
What do you think would work?

Avoiding gratuitous name-calling for one. Not lumping all people into one basket is another. Posting in a way that shows respect while at the same time not being afraid to oppose another's beliefs with reasoned and well thought out proofs. Far too many people think they are being "bashed" personally when it is a doctrine that is being discussed. I have seen you do a pretty good job of exhibiting these ideals most of the time.

38 posted on 04/22/2011 11:55:44 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
What I would NOT like to see is the opportunity to debate beliefs and ideas taken away because some people get their feelings hurt too easily.

Then you need to tell your compatriots that debate is one thing, but abject hate is another and will be met with refutations.

39 posted on 04/22/2011 11:59:15 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
Thank you for proving my point. Some are drawn straight out of the den as the catch their breath.

And you do mine as well. I don't think I've seen a post of yours yet that actually speaks about anything other than insults and anger. I am perfectly willing to discuss any point in a calm and respectful manner.

40 posted on 04/22/2011 11:59:32 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
I'm Catholic and I don't see where we just point the finger at other churches to cover up our sins. There is a lot being done, especially at the local level diocese. I think the point of the OP was that there are those out there that want to bash the Catholic church at every turn when abuse is going on at a statistically higher level in their own backyard, or own churches and communities.

We all need to stop child abuse and Pedophiles. Some may take comfort in thinking “it's only those darn Catholics”. But that type of complacency is exactly what an abuser looks for.

41 posted on 04/22/2011 11:59:50 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: D-fendr; All

Forgotten Study: Abuse in School 100 Times Worse than by Priests
by LifeSiteNews.com
Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:15
By James Tillman and John Jalsevac

WASHINGTON, DC, April 1, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) – In the last several weeks such a quantity of ink has been spilled in newspapers across the globe about the priestly sex abuse scandals, that a casual reader might be forgiven for thinking that Catholic priests are the worst and most common perpetrators of child sex abuse.

But according to Charol Shakeshaft, the researcher of a little-remembered 2004 study prepared for the U.S. Department of Education, “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.”

After effectively disappearing from the radar, Shakeshaft’s study is now being revisited by commentators seeking to restore a sense of proportion to the mainstream coverage of the Church scandal.

According to the 2004 study “the most accurate data available at this time” indicates that “nearly 9.6 percent of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career.”

“Educator sexual misconduct is woefully under-studied,” writes the researcher. “We have scant data on incidence and even less on descriptions of predators and targets. There are many questions that call for answers.”
READ MORE...
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/apr/10040101

The Education Department stats were 9.6% in 2004 per the article. I can’t find the link where a spokesperson stated a year or two ago that they expected the number to reach 10%. If the media or anyone in the DoE really cared about the kids they’d be investigating this up the ying yang, since they’re not, one can draw a conclusion - that they were targeting the Catholic Church which eventually filtered down to Protestant denominations but with less media hype.

There are links within on studies done on the rate of homosexuals and pedophilia...there’s actually a name for it but it eludes me...
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=13722


42 posted on 04/23/2011 12:01:29 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: boatbums
Avoiding gratuitous name-calling for one. Not lumping all people into one basket is another. Posting in a way that shows respect while at the same time not being afraid to oppose another's beliefs with reasoned and well thought out proofs.

What a hypocrite! Let's go back through your posting history, shall we?

43 posted on 04/23/2011 12:02:19 AM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
I want it to be a non-bashing site with legitimate doctrinal arguments instead of the daily hate posted here.

Well, that would be peachy, however, what some people call "hate" is in reality doctrinal arguments for others. The general rule is that posts not contain profanity or personal attacks. No racism or violence either. The moderators are on board to see that those rules are followed. I think those rules are livable and try to abide by them.

44 posted on 04/23/2011 12:06:00 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

Not fun to be caught on a thread where you’re outnumbered, is it? Welcome to the jungle. I’ve fought it out on OPC Catholic bashing threads 20-1. Put on your big boy pants here.


45 posted on 04/23/2011 12:06:40 AM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: MacMattico

Agree, the protective programs in the CC is so good it’s been used by Protestant denominations and other institutions. Where are these cretins going to now (other than home which is the major place it occurs)? It appears to be the schools as their numbers are escalating. So how do we get the media to investigate considering they’re in bed with the unions and homosexuals...


46 posted on 04/23/2011 12:09:30 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: antceecee

First link in google for Pastor Steve Gaines:
http://www.wmctv.com/story/5840120/controversy-simmers-at-bellevue-gaines-tells-congregation-he-will-stay?redirected=true


47 posted on 04/23/2011 12:10:49 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: MacMattico
Our church speaks very openly about child abuse and each grade level attends a class, once a year with their parents, to discuss on an age appropriate level what molestation and child abuse is and the importance of reporting it.

I think that is an admirable policy for any church to have. I think much of what has happened in the past could have been avoided but not all can be, sadly. It will take a concerted effort of awareness, openness, church discipline (with teeth) and placing the welfare of the children over the reputation of a church. I doubt any logical person would fault a church that discovered such gross sin and dealt with it properly. It would be welcomed!

48 posted on 04/23/2011 12:11:34 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
what some people call "hate" is in reality doctrinal arguments for others.

I'm pretty sure Satan used that argument. He thought his greatest victory was today. Three days later he got the smack down.

49 posted on 04/23/2011 12:13:10 AM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
Are you admitting you're a mouthbreather?

I have some seasonal allergies, if that is what you mean. :o)

50 posted on 04/23/2011 12:13:36 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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