Posted on 05/10/2011 6:26:58 PM PDT by grumpa
In 1993 Hank Hanegraaff (“The Bible Answer Man”) wrote a book entitled Christianity in Crisis. In the book he exposed problems within evangelicalism. Many think that in actuality Hanegraaff understated the problems of both doctrine and practice within Christianity, and time has made the issues even more acute.
Forgive us for saying so, but perhaps it is time to be honest with ourselves. American Christianity is a mess. It is separated into divisive sects, giving the world the impression that we don’t know what we are doing. And maybe we don’t. Some serious introspection is in order.
(Excerpt) Read more at faithfacts.org ...
Hey not a piece - the whole body. Why is that so hard to believe when spoken by someone raised from the dead on Easter? “This is my body”. I don’t walk away. I believe.
I do believe Jesus who raised from the dead...I just know that he was speaking figuratively.
I don’t walk away. I believe.
LOL...No they haven't. Easter always occurs on a Sunday, Pesach always begins on the 15th of Nisam. Since this is not an issue of different interpretations it is incredibly easy to prove you wrong on this. With the exception of 2010 they have fallen on different days, sometimes separated by as much as 4 weeks (2005 & 2008).
Prior to the year 2000 how many times have
they occurred in the same week ?
Did you read the word that "habitations" was translated from? "Moshab" has more than one meaning.
Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day
Again, not in the commandments; not to mention, you're missing the parts of the Bible where God said that he removed his dwelling place from Jerusalem, as well as what Hosea 3:4 mentions:
And be sure to send your menfolk to the Temple in Jerusalem three times per year to stand before the high priest
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim . . .That doesn't nullify the commandments of course. It takes a lot more studying to find out what the real picture is.
You're mistaking tithes for taxes? The second tithe wasn't for "the governance", so I don't know where you got that from; it was actually for personal use during the feast of tabernacles.
Don’t forget, there are three tithes. One for the priests, one for the governance, and one for the poor. One of these was once every three years, so the effective overall tax rate was 23.3%
Did you read the word that "habitations" was translated from? "Moshab" has more than one meaning.
Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day
Again, not in the commandments; not to mention, you're missing the parts of the Bible where God said that he removed his dwelling place from Jerusalem, as well as what Hosea 3:4 mentions:
And be sure to send your menfolk to the Temple in Jerusalem three times per year to stand before the high priest
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim . . .That doesn't nullify the commandments of course. It takes a lot more studying to find out what the real picture is.
You're mistaking tithes for taxes? The second tithe wasn't for "the governance", so I don't know where you got that from; it was actually for personal use during the feast of tabernacles.
Don’t forget, there are three tithes. One for the priests, one for the governance, and one for the poor. One of these was once every three years, so the effective overall tax rate was 23.3%
When you are in a hole the smart thing to do is to stop digging. If, by the same week you mean Easter +/- 7 days the number is really very high. If your point of reference is Easter being the beginning of a week the number is still significant and certainly greater than 0/2000. If you care to actually check it out instead of repeating the lunacy (no pun intended) you have heard you can check it out for every year past and future at the following website:
No thanks, I would rather have the Hebrew Greek alongside the English
the idea that ignatious......
did you read the man’s own writing? LOL!!
it is not only ignatius, he merely was reflecting the Catholic Faith received from the Apostles ( St John in his case! )but the whole Christian world believed this.
don’t you realize it is you that is holding to a 16th century invention of man, unknown up until then?
your statement is like me saying it is doubtful Calvin actually believed in predestination.
it must be embarrassing for you to have someone who was taught by St John, clearly teaching what he received, transubstantiation. yes my friend, Jesus was not lying, This is My Body, means This is My Body. Why don’t you believe Him is the question!!
oky doky.
I am happy to have been in on the beginning of this thread...
NOTE:
The commandment not to kindle any fire on the Sabbath is literal. Guided by the Oral Law, also given to Moses from G-d on Mt. Sinai, we know that we must prepare everything the day before the Sabbath (like G-d prepared everything by the 6th day of creation.) In fact, Jews SPECIFICALLY leave a fire burning (usually a burner with a metal plate over it these days) before the Sabbath begins, and eat a hot food on the Sabbath day...without having kindled a new fire.
The Karites, not believing in the Oral Law and the transmission thereof by the rabbis, sat in the cold and dark over the Sabbath because of this literal Torah law (without the full intent—a day of physical and spiritual fulfillment—as taught in the Oral Law, the Talmud.)
This miserable Sabbath observance by the Karites was similar to that of their co-religionist-deniers, the Saducees....who were very sad, you see....
Paul was not concerned about honoring man, but worshipping Jesus, as commanded by Jesus. no bias is needed, the words are clear and unambiguous and were understood from the beginning the way Jesus intended. only in the 16th century, did the devil convince some differently.
my friend, if you had a chance to be taught personally by St John what the Eucharist is, do you think you would understand it correctly? please read St Ignatius and what he said about the Eucharist and you will see Jesus and Paul were telling the truth. stop with your 16th century inventions and silly comments.
the flesh profits nothing.
surely the flesh of Jesus profited everything, namely salvation!
if you want to continue to believe a 16th century tradition of man, as opposed to what the Bible and Sacred Tradition have taught for 2,000 years, be my guest.
does Apostolic Tradition mean anything to you? does the whole One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaching a doctrine for 2,000 years mean anything to you? does the Holy Spirit guiding the Church into all truth mean anything to you?
for your information Jesus never said Peter was a rock. He changed his name to the same word for rock, He never said you are a rock.
can we stop the silliness?
for identification purposes, it is bread before the blessing.
don’t you think it odd, that for 16 centuries, your doctrine that it remains bread was unknown? surely, the true Church taught by the Apostles for 60 years would get this right. who was the first person in history to teach the real presence and where did we see the “true” Christians oppose this false teaching? no one i have ever met can answer that question, do you want to try??
1. (Christ speaking) Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you Nay; but rather division: (disunion)
And of course it does require reading the whole chapter of Luke 12, why Christ who is the only pure source of ‘peace’ would need to tell us that He would be the cause of ‘wars’ and ‘division’. Look around this world there is plenty of ‘division’ and ‘wars’ taking place.
Now wonder why the majority of the inhabitants on this earth today have such animosity to the Saviour? Now that is a challenge to understand.
2. ICorinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (examples): and they are written for our admonition, (warning) upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
Again the whole chapter is required reading to get the ‘context’ of Paul's instruction.
3. Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that *I* will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, *but* of hearing the words of the LORD:
Sure looks as if things foretold all those many years ago that would be are indeed happening right on schedule.
In fact,
| 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. |
when exactly did that happen? -- Read the accounts of the Last Supper
The entire theme of John 6 is belief in Jesus's TRUE words, not in a metaphor -- as I repeated again and again, Jesus pointed out when there was a metaphor in other cases, but he did not do so here.
that's a poor joke, but still funny :)
“don’t you think it odd, that for 16 centuries, your doctrine that it remains bread was unknown? “
That is hardly true. Transubstantiation wasn’t even a word until around 1100 AD.
See this article for many who believed it was symbolically the body. A sample:
“Clement of Alexandria (150-211/216 A.D.) also called the bread and wine symbols of the body and blood of Christ, and taught that the communicant received not the physical but the spiritual life of Christ.8 Origen (185-253/254 A.D.), likewise, speaks in distinctively spiritual and allegorical terms when referring to the eucharist.
Eusebius of Caesarea (263-340 A.D.) identified the elements with the body and blood of Christ but, like Tertullian, saw the elements as being symbolical or representative of spiritual realities.9 He specifically states that the bread and wine are symbols of the Lord’s body and blood and that Christ’s words in John 6 are to be understood spiritually and figuratively as opposed to a physical and literal sense.”
http://www.the-highway.com/eucharist_Webster.html
ORIGEN (c. 185 - 254 A.D.)
We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread BECOMES BY PRAYER A SACRED BODY, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it. (Against Celsus 8:33)
You see how the ALTARS are no longer sprinkled with the blood of oxen, but consecrated BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST. (Homilies on Josue 2:1)
But if that text (Lev 24:5-9) is taken to refer to the greatness of what is mystically symbolized, then there is a ‘commemoration’ which has an EFFECT OF GREAT PROPITIATORY VALUE. If you apply it to that ‘Bread which came down from heaven and gives life to the world,’ that shewbread which ‘God has offered to us as a means of reconciliation, in virtue of faith, ransoming us with his blood,’ and if you look to that commemoration of which the Lord says, ‘Do this in commemoration of me,’ then you will find that this is the unique commemoration WHICH MAKES GOD PROPITIOUS TO MEN. (Homilies on Leviticus 9)
You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received THE BODY OF THE LORD, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall, and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish....how is it that you think neglecting the word of God a lesser crime than neglecting HIS BODY? (Homilies on Exodus 13:3)
...now, however, in full view, there is the true food, THE FLESH OF THE WORD OF GOD, as He Himself says: “MY FLESH IS TRULY FOOD, AND MY BLOOD IS TRULY DRINK.” (Homilies on Numbers 7:2)
ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (c. 150 - 216 A.D.)
Calling her children about her, she [the Church] nourishes them with holy milk, that is, with the Infant Word...The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. “EAT MY FLESH,” He says, “AND DRINK MY BLOOD.” The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutriments. HE DELIVERS OVER HIS FLESH, AND POURS OUT HIS BLOOD; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery! (Instructor of Children 1:6:42,1,3)
read what origen and clement really thought, they were Catholics indeed.
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