The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: Isn't Christ the 'One Mediator'? (Part 3)

TheSacredPage.com ^ | Sunday, May 29, 2011 | Michael Barber

[Turtlepower]

I saw where question 1 of the following 5 questions often raised by protestants was answered in the article. However, I didn’t see where the author addressed the last 4 questions.

“1.Isn’t Christ the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tim 2:5)? If so, isn’t affirming the ability of the dead to pray for us a violation of that biblical teaching? In light of that, it would seem that there can be no biblical justification for the Catholic belief that saints in heaven can pray for those on earth.
2.Are the dead even conscious? Aren’t the dead “asleep” until the resurrection?
3.If the those who have died are conscious, how do we know they are aware of the needs of Christians on earth?
4.Assuming one could answer the questions above, isn’t it just speculation that the saints pray for those on earth? Is there any clear indication in Scripture that those in heaven actually pray for those on earth?
5.Isn’t it a violation of the biblical prohibition against necromancy to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?”

[Waywardson]

No one is in heaven, yet. From our point of view. All those who died or are alive at the second coming will be transformed or resurrected at the same instant. The event takes place from the perspective of the believer at their death, but from the perspective of the living, all at the same trumpet sound in the end. Both are true statements, because the very thing we call “time” is just an illusion of a static singularity to beings outside of time. Everything that is, is all past tense from the point of view of God, but present and future for limited man.

Thus, the instant someone dies, they are outside time and space and present with the Lord at the end of time. Thus, they cannot pray for events which are already over and ended to which they were unaware when in progress and for which, because it is now the end of time for all the believers, including us.

This is why we are said to be sleeping, from the perspective of the living. And present with the Lord when dead. Both are true. But both prevent the sleeping from being aware of the living or even concerned with our events.

There is one exception. Hades. The dead who are not in Christ are aware of the activities of the living. There is no rest for the wicked.

See: 2 Samuel 7:12, (and likewise 1 Kings 2:10, 11:43, 14:20, 31, 15:8, 24, 16:6, 28, 22:40, 50 etc. etc.), Job 10:21, 13:12-15, 14:21, Psalm 6:5, 13:3, 30:9, 31:17, 49:17-20, 88:10-11, 115:17, Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10, Isaiah 38:18, John 3:13, 11:11-13, Acts 2:29,34, 13:36, 1 Corinthians 15:51.

[Turtlepower]

I think your explanation is both logical and biblical. There simply aren’t many scripture passages that detail what goes in in Heaven for believers. Therefore, I believe the concept of praying to departed saints relies on speculation of what Heaven is like rather than solid biblical support.

[Cronos]

1 Timothy 2:5 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

and 1 Timothy 2:1 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

It is key to read in context and entirety. Christ is the unique intercessor between God and Man because He is both God AND Man and He grants us grace like Eph. 2:18 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. and for others Heb. 4:16 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Saints in heaven are alive in Christ and through God's grace alone can pray for us. We need all the prayers we can get -- from all our family -- whether on earth or in Heaven

[Cronos]

turtle: 2.Are the dead even conscious? Aren’t the dead “asleep” until the resurrection?

I'm sorry, that is incorrect, Isaiah 14:9-10 9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

In 1 Samuel 28 we see Saul talking to the dead Samuel. He was not sleeping

1 Peter 3:19 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; -- they were not sleeping

Take the story of Lazarus and the rich man -- they weren't sleeping either

Rev 5:8 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -- they ain't sleeping

Finally, remember Heb 12:1 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, -- we aren't surrounded with sleeping witnesses...

[Cronos]

turtle 3.If the those who have died are conscious, how do we know they are aware of the needs of Christians on earth?

Heb 12:1 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, -- witnesses

[Cronos]

Turtlepower: 4. assuming one could answer the questions above -- there, answered for you

isn’t it just speculation that the saints pray for those on earth?

rev 5:8 having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Now, the saints are already in heaven, right? So, what are their prayers for?

[Cronos]

T: Isn’t it a violation of the biblical prohibition against necromancy to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?”

Necromancy is a form of magic in which the practitioner seeks to summon the spirit of a deceased person, either as an apparition or ghost, or to raise them bodily, for the purpose of divination.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Now, asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is not necromancy. We are not holding a conversation with them, we are not summoning them, we are not raising them bodily and we are definitely not asking them for divination, to find out the future

So, no my friend, this is not necromancy.

[Salvation]

Psst. We’ve seen Parts 1, 2 and 3. More are coming.

[Cronos]

Catholic belief that saints in heaven can pray for those on earth

Please do note that this is not just a Catholic belief, but is shared with our other fellow members of the One Apostolic Church -- the Eastern Orthodox, the Orientals (Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians) and the Assyrian Church. All of these are the ancient Churchs founded in Apostolic times.

One, the Assyrian/Chaldean/Ancient Church of the East, was separated from the others by language and politics (it was based initially in Parthia which was an enemy of the Roman Empire and then spread as far as Mongolia) and was not in contact with the others for a long time due to politics, yet they retain the same beliefs.

These are beliefs from Apostolic times, as we see referenced in The Shepherd of Hermas AD 80

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’

and Clement of Alexandria in AD 208

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"

In fact you can find funerary notes written on graves in the 2nd and 3rd century that say

• "Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome
• "Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days"

I don't give this to you as proof (for that, the biblical links above are adequate but rather as evidence that this is what the Early Christians believed -- with reason as we see above

[Cronos]

As we pray for each other, in fact are exhorted to do so

Rom. 15:30-32 "I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you"

and

James 5:16-17 "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects"

we are all those who believe in Christ, members of the Body of Christ -- whether on earth or in Heaven. Those in Heaven have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ, made perfect by Him. These saints pray to God as we see in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4 "prayers of the saints".... they have no powers of their own besides their praying to God for us.

[Cronos]

As we pray for each other, in fact are exhorted to do so

Rom. 15:30-32 "I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you"

and

James 5:16-17 "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects"

we are all those who believe in Christ, members of the Body of Christ -- whether on earth or in Heaven. Those in Heaven have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ, made perfect by Him. These saints pray to God as we see in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4 "prayers of the saints".... they have no powers of their own and can only pray to God for us.

[Cronos]

Finally, please note this, not all Protestants believe in point 2 you raised Are the dead even conscious? Aren’t the dead “asleep” until the resurrection? -- let me give you one example -- followers of Calvin like the Presbyterians in fact call this The false doctrine of Soul Sleep

• Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies.
  John 11:25 NIV
• Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.
  Luke 20:38 NASB

[Cronos]

TT -- I hope that those explanations were suffice to answer your questions

S -- I guess if you give TT the links to Part 1 and 2 and the next it would help.