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Did Mary Have Other Children?
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry ^ | Unknown | Matt Slick

Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD

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To: Rashputin
What speculations?

The ones you yourself relegated to speculations ... that somehow now you insist are oral traditions.

261 posted on 06/14/2011 12:47:54 PM PDT by dartuser ("Dealing with preterists is like cleaning the litter box ... but at least none of the cats are big.")
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To: Iscool
What? They don't need no scripture...

No kiddin'. Tradition and all that bilge....

Hoss

262 posted on 06/14/2011 12:55:14 PM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: HossB86; Iscool

What is tradition but speculation wearing an big, pointed hat?


263 posted on 06/14/2011 12:59:15 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: Quix

“2. He gave the priesthood of ALL BELIEVERS THE POWER TO BIND AND LOOSE.”

That’s not what he says, though. He grants that to Peter. :)


264 posted on 06/14/2011 1:00:48 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: BenKenobi

WRONG.

READ JOEL

THE END OF MARK

AND I COR 12-14


265 posted on 06/14/2011 1:03:19 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Titanites; Quix
you mean the nonsensical dadaist?

What is funny is that they believe that the lurkers actually

  1. read the stuff they write -- which is written in such multi-colored fonts and sizes that they are a pain to read

  2. The language is like that of a half-drugged coyote after a lobotomy it makes James Joyce's ulysseus seem easier to comprehend

  3. The content is so liberally filled with insults and slurs

  4. When you finally read the content, it's so useless that no one bothers to read it or comprehend it

    If you speak to one of the folks in the long list the WELS reject posts to, they'll tell you they don't even read his posts -- that must be quite an ego buster


266 posted on 06/14/2011 1:04:20 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: Titanites; Quix; BenKenobi
If you speak to one of the folks in the long list the WELS reject posts to, they'll tell you they don't even read his posts -- that must be quite an ego buster

and what is even funnier is that if the hangers-on don't read his stuff, the lurkers are even less likely.

What a sad, sad individual

267 posted on 06/14/2011 1:06:24 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: smvoice
What is tradition but speculation wearing an big, pointed hat?

You got it! Don't forget the dress and the red shoes....

Hoss

268 posted on 06/14/2011 1:10:27 PM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: HossB86

LOL!! I think we’re on to something!


269 posted on 06/14/2011 1:11:44 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: Natural Law
But there is no infallible interpreter in Man. Sinful Man will always put his bent on Scripture. Thus we say Scripture interprets Scripture and to trust Scripture alone because the wiles of the devil through man is completely sneaky.

Besides the Scriptures are defined by the word "pure" - "Thy word is very pure" Psalm 119:140. If it is not pure, it is not Scripture. Thus we can completely trust it, meditate on it and Pray it back to God in praise and supplication.

But has not the doctrine of Papal Infallibility has led to the position that Mary's sons were not James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas and has led to override a host of Scriptures (as the beginning of this thread shows).

It certainly has. For if they are her sons, then the Assumption of the Virgin Mary is false and so are a host of other positions.

The real problem is making a Goddess and worshiping her. One whom you say you must go through to get to the Lord Jesus Christ. Whom you say Reparations are due and is Sinless. This is how you make a Goddess.

But the Scripture are clear "All have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3) and all Mankind falls under that save one, The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He alone was born of a Virgin so that the Sin and Death, through the bloodline of man, could not infect him. He was begotten not made.

He alone is Sinless and the only one worthy to pay the price for the sins of folks like you and me.

Worship him alone and turn away from this Goddess.

270 posted on 06/14/2011 1:29:44 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: MHGinTN; tophat9000
Other than the difficulties of traveling with a very pregnant woman so no attention for a bunch of rowdy kids along to the census accessor, I have no idea. The same quandry would apply for the story of Jesus at 12 getting left behind at the Temple ... no other children are mentioned in that story either.

LUKE 2:
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom;

It seems that 12 was the "magic" age at which one participated in the Passover. Any younger children at home would not be attending the Passover.

Further---------

Luke 2:
Luke.2 [1] In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled.
[2] This was the first enrollment, when Quirin'i-us was governor of Syria.
[3] And all went to be enrolled, each to his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,
[5] to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.

There were either no other children of Joseph involved or they all had reached the age of majority and were on their own.

However, the same "brothers were traveling with His Mother while Jesus preached.

Luke 8:20 And he was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you."

Simple math would make these "older sons of Joseph" in their late 40's or considerably older during His Ministry.

Assuming Jesus was the "first born" of Mary and Joseph there would be no other children to be enrolled in the census.

271 posted on 06/14/2011 1:45:14 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Cronos
Ezekiel 44 indicates the prince which is Jesus, so not intercourse with him.

I thought the king was Jesus? Now he is also the prince in Ez 44? And you still have not answered your assumed equivalence between the tabernacle and ark ... and from Ez 44 you have now introduced sanctuary into the mix.

And if you go on to verse 4 in Ez 44 ...

4 Then He brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the house; and I looked, and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD, and I fell on my face.

If this passage is talking about Marys body, and is advocating her perpetual virginity because of a closed East gate ... then you now have a clear example of someone worshiping Mary in verse 4. On the basis of this interpretation (which is surely the official interpretation of the RCC since you never inject your own private interpretation into Scripture) should not the RCC take this passage and immediately stop pretending that it does not worship Mary and actually do what the text says? Fall down on your face and start worshipping ... and do it in the full faith and confidence that what you are doing is supported by the Bible?

If you keep going in Ez 44, you will see where it talks about bringing foreigners into the sanctuary ... at that point your "enlightened meaning" breaks down pretty badly there does it not?

Am I being ridiculous here? Yeah, I am being overly ridiculous to prove a point ... You're interpretation of this passage in Ezekiel has no connection to anything historical, it ignores the immediate, intermediate, and ultimate context, it employs no common rules of Hebrew or Greek grammar, and reduces an otherwise straightforward portion of the OT to a nothing but a mystical Joseph Smith-like fabrication with no grounding in reality.

Interpretation within the constraints of a historical-grammatical approach to literal Biblical hermeneutics finds contentment in the plain meaning of the text. What you are teaching is a far cry from that.

272 posted on 06/14/2011 1:50:17 PM PDT by dartuser ("Dealing with preterists is like cleaning the litter box ... but at least none of the cats are big.")
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To: iowamark; HarleyD
If the author had read the New Testament in the original Greek, he would see that his interpretations/translations are clearly incorrect.

No person on this earth has seen the "original" New Testament in Greek, Aramaic, or any other language.

273 posted on 06/14/2011 1:55:21 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Mach9; Dr. Eckleburg
So let me get this straight. The Roman Catholic Church, which, incidentally, was the sole custodian of both Biblical Testaments for 1500 years, and made no changes in those testaments in the following 500+ years, deliberately established and purveyed a “tradition” which contradicted those texts? I don’t think so.

Pure trash!

Romans 3:
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

274 posted on 06/14/2011 2:02:49 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: dartuser
OHhhh, your speculations, I see. Yes, you are speculating. I was wrong, though, about the Catholic view because I looked it up and the tradition was based on testimony, so, no speculation there. Sorry, I thought both sides were speculation but now I find otherwise and yes, I do insist they're based on testimony.

Sorry about that, I was uninformed and did at one point both sides of the matter were speculation. Thanks to the various funny posts here, though, I now know better and have even more respect for the way the Catholic church bases tradition on more than the idle speculation of those who read the Scriptures to suit themselves.

have a nice day

275 posted on 06/14/2011 2:21:50 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: sr4402
"But there is no infallible interpreter in Man. Sinful Man will always put his bent on Scripture.

That certainly has been the case with the Reformation and is exactly the reason God established a Church with a teaching authority to bind the Word of God to the languages spoken by the common man. It is done through the same process and organization as the initial canon of Scripture, guided by the same Holy Spirit and is not left to man to decide each for himself.

"Thus we say Scripture interprets Scripture and to trust Scripture alone because the wiles of the devil through man is completely sneaky."

15th century snake oil!

"But there is no infallible interpreter in Man. Sinful Man will always put his bent on Scripture. Thus we say Scripture interprets Scripture and to trust Scripture alone because the wiles of the devil through man is completely sneaky.

Catholics do worship him alone and recognize no goddess. As for Mary I do not worship her, but I do love her as I love my own mother and honor her as the mother of the Savior.

276 posted on 06/14/2011 2:25:42 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Campion; HarleyD
I won't do "seeming suggestions". I'll present three facts:

1.No verse of Scripture identifies anyone except Jesus as Mary's biological child.

No verse of Scripture identifies any of Joseph's biological children or of any cousins of Jesus.

2. Unless all of his siblings predeceased him (unlikely), a Jesus with younger brothers or sisters commits a sin from the cross in John 19:26-27, by relieving them of their obligation under Torah to support their mother

Only John was present - no other Apostle, or the brothers who "didn't believe in him".

3. Here are some opinions of sola Scriptura Protestants, who may have known their Bibles even better than Matt Slick (!!) on the subject:

Opinion is not necessarily fact.

277 posted on 06/14/2011 2:33:53 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Careful now, I was jumped on for hinting what you’ve just explained with logic. ... And thank you for the cogent commentary, once again.


278 posted on 06/14/2011 2:36:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Ahhh, but you see OR, RC Tradition trumps all logic and Scripture.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: After all, what is Tradition but Speculation with a pointy hat?

279 posted on 06/14/2011 2:40:53 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: jla; HarleyD
Maria ascended directly to Paradise upon her human death, and soon thereafter her body also was lifted to Heaven. She immediately joined the Holy Trinity and became Mother of the Church.

And you know this? How?

280 posted on 06/14/2011 2:49:13 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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