Posted on 06/22/2011 7:24:05 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
END TIMES, DREAMS, VISIONS, PROPHECY PING LIST
PING
. . . MORE VERY PLAUSIBLE AND BIBLICAL POINTS . . .
worth some prayerful pondering
Time will tell. I still do not think anyone has it all figured out . . . hindsight is soooooooo much clearer.
However, imho, this set of scenario’s is as good as any and better than many.
bump
Thanks for the ping!
Is that you, Reverend Caning?
Thank You Quix!, GiovannaNicoletta, I read this and did not find too many problems. Is this in line with your concept of coming events based on God’s Word?
Thanks for the ping Quix, this looks like a pretty detailed theory. I’ll have to go over it in detail and see if I agree or not, but at least he’s providing Scriptural support instead of just plucking ideas out of thin air.
If you mean to mock someone, at least get the name right. This is not Harold Camping, this theory has nothing in common with Camping's theory and unlike most other theories out there, it seems to be based more on what is actually written rather than what was passed down to us over the centuries.
I looked over your profile and can see readily that you're not a troll and are quite conservative, at least on economic and most social matters, so as a fellow FReeper I would humbly request that you treat this thread and topic with respect. I don't ask that you accept it at face value, as I love debates on this material, but I do suggest not mocking someone without first researching their views and being able to provide a counter-view of your own as well.
Thank you for your polite response. I feared Caning was not right but I was too lazy to check it out. Regardless, I am always amused by the modern day Nostradamuses who read the Biblical tea leaves, do their own calculations, as many others have, and determine they know the timing of God’s plan. This despite Jesus saying no one would know the hour of God’s return, that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. To me, that trumps anything in Revelations.
The recent embarrassment by Rev. Camping was simply a reference point.
If you would like to know my religious views there are many exchanges from the past with Alamo Girl and Betty Boop that will reveal them if you care to go to the trouble.
I completely understand that, but it is also a topic that has been transformed into a lightening rod for Religion Trolls so I'm a little wary of anyone who makes the connection to Camping's foolishness.
Regardless, I am always amused by the modern day Nostradamuses who read the Biblical tea leaves, do their own calculations, as many others have, and determine they know the timing of God’s plan. This despite Jesus saying no one would know the hour of God’s return, that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. To me, that trumps anything in Revelations.
I understand and fully agree that Christ Himself said that no man would know the day and hour of His return, but His return and the Great Tribulation are two different events. One thing that I would ask, however, is that since many of the Scriptures located within the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ are by Christ Himself, how do you square that with what you stated? If Christ Himself attested to Revelation's accuracy, which He did in Revelation 22:16-19, how can He also contradict it? Here's the verses I just made mention of in reference.
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. [17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. [18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. - Rev 22:16-19 KJV
I think it's pretty clear that not only is the Book of Revelation equal with the other books in Canon, it also comes with it's own promise of retribution towards those who would add to or remove from it, which is not something that is done with the other Books of the Bible. It seems pretty clear that Christ deems this Book's inerrancy to be a critical detail for Believers to understand, so if that's the case why do you hold the idea that it is somehow less inspired than the others? Something isn't tracking here, but maybe you have a nuanced approach to this that I am not aware of as yet.
I've always been under the opposite impression that it would be Israel's last chance for survival that they sign 'peace' treaties with their enemies, a view that never quite made sense to me (if their enemies had sworn to wipe them from earth, why would the enemies agree to any treaty at all with what's left of Israel? Why wouldn't they just go ahead and finish them off?)
Interesting view presented above - one that I'd never considered, and it does seem to make more sense to me. With Israel becoming dominant, it would be their enemies that feel the need for a treaty.
I am not a Biblical scholar or even that well versed in it. In my teens, 55-60 years ago, I was a daily and avid reader of the New Testament. I considered the Old Testament to be simply a history of the Jews and the New Covenant with God to have replaced what came before. I started reading the Old Testament and think that the story of Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden are the basis for understanding Christianity. However, I soon got lost in all the “begat”s and moved on. Still, through church attendance I absorbed a fair amount of the gospel in the OT.
I thought Daniel must either be on peyote or truly in communication with God with his dream interpretations. His readings were really off the wall but turned out to be correct.
Yet, concerning this thread and Israel, wasn’t Israel in this very same situation in 1949, 1967, and 1973? Why does the present circumstance all of a sudden become the omen for the Rapture and the Tribulation? As with Camping, there have been other similar “omens” that proved wrong.
Doesn’t this run the risk of being afoul of Jesus’ warning about adding to or taking from the scripture?
Seems so to me, too, paladin1_dcs.
And yet I also see the sense of Mind-numbed Robot's observation:
...I am always amused by the modern day Nostradamuses who read the Biblical tea leaves, do their own calculations, as many others have, and determine they know the timing of God’s plan. This despite Jesus saying no one would know the hour of God’s return, that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. To me, that trumps anything in Revelations.Indeed, Christ says that no one knows the timing of His return, not even the Son, but only the Father. So I'm a little bemused when people pore over the scriptures in order to make accurate descriptions of the future, i.e., the End Times. As if we had any idea of what time even is, from God's perspective, Who is not in time.
Modern man seems to have a mania for analyses of this type. He seems to have forgotten that "we see as if through a glass, darkly." Our modern analytical methods can never remove that condition, nor compensate for it in any way. We crave certainty, but cannot have it.
Having said that, I very much admire the account titled "How the Peace of Jerusalem Will Be Established." It is a cogent story, well-grounded in citation of the prophets and the gospel accounts. It also seems well supported by breaking events in the Middle East/Arab world....
Do some people think the Book of Revelation is NOT equal with the other books in the Canon? I wonder why they would think that.
It seems to me the Book of Revelation is the capstone of the entire biblical revelation from first to last (Alpha to Omega), the final cause that draws all of biblical history, OT and NT, unto itself.
So I guess there is a sense in which it could be said that Revelation is "not equal" with the other books of Holy Scripture. Moreover, in it Christ personally guarantees its inerrancy — and as you point out, paladin1_dcs, this is the only book of the Holy Canon in which this happens.
Thank you all for this fascinating discussion!
Thank you so much for posting this excellent article, The Ignorant Fisherman!
I absolutely agree that we must be vigilant in our defense of Scripture, that we are to never add to it nor delete portions of it for our own comfort. However, that being said, I must point out some details in Scripture which speak to the situation now as possibly leading up to the events of Revelation.
First, to show what the differences are between the current situation in Israel and the situation in 1949, 1967 and 1973, you must understand that one of the biggest prophecies of all is concerning Jerusalem's rise as the primary focus of the whole world. That Prophecy, found in Zechariah 12, has to date never been fulfilled. I've included it here for reference.
[2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. [3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.- Zec 12:2-3 KJV
If you'll notice the portion I highlighted, the very first thing you notice is that the people all around Israel will lay siege to both Israel and Jerusalem. While this has happened in the past, the results of that siege have never happened before. The portion that reads "...all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces," means, literally, that those nations who attempt to besiege Jerusalem will be torn to shreds. The Hebrew word used here, sarat, means to literally lacerate or be torn to pieces.
Furthermore, you'll notice that this siege is not just Israel, but Jerusalem as well. To answer your earlier question about why this situation is different, just ask yourself this.
Who completely controlled Jerusalem during the 1949 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War? It wasn't Israel. Israel only captured part of Jerusalem during the 1949 war and only captured the remaining portions at the conclusion of the 1967 war.
Furthermore, while Israel controlled all of Jerusalem during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Jerusalem was never surrounded and besieged.
So, now that we've established that the events of Zechariah 12 have not taken place and events now are beginning to align to allow it to finally take place, you can see why we are watching these events with growing excitement. While we cannot know the day or hour, we can know from watching and reading carefully that we're very, very close now.
That Jerusalem is presently a 'burdensom stone' at present is beyond reproach; nobody can deny that WWIII can erupt out of Jerusalem over the course of any arbitrary hour from now until whenever.
Every eye in the world casts a very wary glance towards Jerusalem each and every day.
I absolutely agree that we will not know the day or hour of His return, however, we are told to watch for His return and we're told that we will know it's growing close due to how current events will unfold. Christ mentioned this in His parable of the Fig Tree, stating that when the tree blooms, the time of the harvest is near, meaning that the time for Christ to come for His Bride is close. This is not to say that we can know the day and hour, just that we will be able to discern the general season.
Also, I would also like to point out that you raise a very, very good point in regards to the fact that God is not subject to time. I suspect, due to clues provided in Scripture stating that God knows the end from the beginning, that Time, as we know it, is actually not only finite but already completed as well. From our point of view, Time is still progressing, but from God's point of view not only does it have a beginning and an ending, it has already ended and we, presently, are merely playing out our parts in it. This theory would seem to fit with the paradoxical Scriptures which seems to state that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, yet the dead in Christ rise again in the resurrection at His second coming.
It would also neatly fix the perception issue we have of free-will versus election and a few other, interesting ideas that have come out of quantum mechanics. All in all, it's an incredibly interesting subject that I'm looking forward to understanding more once this mortal finally puts on immortality and I'm given my resurrected body and all knowledge is finally made known to us.
God Bless and thank you. TGBTG!
My friend the more I studied this I saw that the other position did not fit. As a matter of fact one had to force fit it. When looked in this light it all sings.
Ezek 38-39 and Rev 11:2-4 are the keys.
Thanks for your reply!
David
Thanks for getting my back!
I.F.
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