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Seven Things You Have To Know To Understand End Times Prophecy Part 2 (Dispensational Caucus)
GracethruFaith.com ^ | Undated | Jack Kelley

Posted on 07/19/2011 4:53:25 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta

Our previous study of the Seven Things You Have To Know To Understand End Times Prophecy covered the Sequence of Major End Times Events. We’ll begin this segment with the second item on our list of seven.

2) The Destiny Of The Three Components Of Humanity: The Nations (aka Gentiles), Israel, And The Church

Even so-called experts misinterpret prophecy when they don’t stop to consider who the Lord, or one of His prophets, is addressing. Just because something’s in the Gospels doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s for the Church, or being in Isaiah that it’s only for Israel. Knowing a prophecy’s intended recipient is critical to understanding it, and there are three possibilities. I’ll show you what I mean.

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Ephes. 2:15-16)

Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks (Gentiles) or the church of God. (1 Cor. 10:32)

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26-28)

In the 4,000 or so years from the Creation to the Cross, the human race came to be divided into three distinct components from God’s perspective. Here’s how it happened. From the Creation there was one race of Humans, the family of man, later called Gentiles. Then in Genesis 12, God called Abraham to build a great nation. He and his descendants were first called Hebrews (Genesis 14:13), and later Jews (Ezra 4:12). From that time on, the world’s population was either Jew or Gentile. But at the cross God created the Church, taken from among both Jews and Gentiles but sharing a destiny with neither. Now there were three, and everyone on Earth belongs to of one of them. In his epistles, Paul always took pains to distinguish the Church from both Jews and Gentiles, in effect calling the Church a new race of Human in the passages I cited above. I’ll describe each group’s destiny so you can see how different they are.

First the Gentiles. According to Isaiah 56:6-8, Gentiles who converted to Judaism before the cross became part of Israel and share its destiny (see below) as long as they died in faith of a coming Redeemer. Gentiles who meet their Lord after the rapture are called tribulation believers. They’re either martyred for their faith, in which case their spirits will go to serve God in His Temple (Rev 7:13-17) and will be joined with resurrection bodies at the time of the 2nd Coming (Rev. 20:4), or they’ll survive the Great Tribulation to help re-populate the nations of Earth in the Kingdom age (Millennium). Believing Gentile survivors are the sheep in the Sheep and Goat Judgment that we’ll look at later.

Next the Jews. The spirits of Jews who died in faith of a coming redeemer before Jesus went to the cross were taken into Heaven with Him after His resurrection (Matt. 27:52-53). They’ll also receive resurrection bodies at the Second Coming (Daniel 12:1-3). Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah after the church disappears will be hidden in the Jordanian desert (Petra) during the Great Tribulation. (Rev. 12:14) Both groups will dwell in Israel during the Millennium. (Ezekiel 43:6-7)

Of course Jews and Gentiles who give their hearts to Jesus during the Church age become part of the Church and after the rapture / resurrection will populate the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21). Many of us were taught to call it Heaven, but it’s actually a separate entity. (More on this in our discussion of the Millennium, item 6 on our list of 7 Things You Have To Know.)

Whether Jew or Gentile, those who don’t do any of the above during their lifetimes will be tormented in Hell until they’re brought back to life to stand trial at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. It takes place at the end of the Millennium. At that time, they’ll be sentenced to eternal suffering in the Lake of Fire. (Rev. 20:14)

In the Old Testament, God promised Israel that He would return one day to dwell among them in their land on Earth forever (Ezekiel 43:6-7). In the New Testament, Jesus promised the Church that He would come back and take us to be with Him in His Father’s House (John 14:1-3). Both promises come true. Israel is not the Church nor is the Church Israel, and both groups are distinct from the Gentile nations. Much of the confusion surrounding End Times prophecy results either from the failure to understand, or the refusal to accept, this truth.

For instance, many Christians today believe that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and has inherited all of Israel’s blessings. Israel no longer serves any purpose in the world, they think, so when God talks about Israel in the New Testament He really means the Church. Therefore they misunderstand the Doctrine of Election, the Olivet Discourse, the Great Tribulation, and other New Testament teachings having to do with Israel.

Also, many Gentiles sit in pews on Sundays and think they’re in the church even though they’re not born again. They think they’re saved because they try to live a good life, or give money, or belong to a particular denomination. They’re wrongly convinced that the Church’s blessings are theirs.

So there are three components of humanity and they all have different destinies. New Jerusalem is for the Church, Israel is for the Jews, and the rest of the world is for Gentile believers who will re-populate the Earth after the 2nd Coming. All surviving non-believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will be taken away at the time of the 2nd Coming to await the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium with unbelievers of all ages.

3) The Purpose And Length Of The Great Tribulation

How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD . ‘Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’ (Jeremiah 30:7,11)

Jesus said that the Great Tribulation would be the most intense period of judgment the world has ever seen, greater than the World Wars, and even greater than the Flood of Noah. He said that if it were left to run its course, not a single human being would survive. But for the sake of His people He would stop it at its appointed time. (Matt. 24:22)

The purpose of the Great Tribulation is two-fold. It’s explained in the Jeremiah passage above, where it’s called by its Old Testament name, the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. God will use it to completely destroy the nations among whom His people have been scattered, and to discipline Israel, purifying them to dwell with Him in the Promised Land. The Church, having been purified at the cross, requires neither destruction nor discipline and has no business in the Great Tribulation.

(No matter where you place the Rapture in the End Times Scenario, if you believe in the Lord’s all-sufficient work on the cross, then you know that the Church has to be protected from the End Times judgments, not purified by them. If you don’t believe the Lord’s work was sufficient, but that the coming judgments are needed to finish what He only began, then you have much bigger problems than figuring out when the Rapture will occur.)

The length of the Great Tribulation is variously given as 3 1/2 years (Daniel 12:7), 42 months (Rev. 11:2), or 1260 days (Rev. 12:6). If you use a 12 month 30 day calendar for a total of 360 days in a year, these three measurements all turn out to be the same length. Some commentators claim that in Matt. 24:22 Jesus said this time would be cut short, and the English translation does seem to imply this, but it has to be an incorrect interpretation of the Lord’s intent. I say this because while Daniel 12 was written several hundred years before the Lord spoke on the matter, John wrote Revelation 60 years after the resurrection. so it’s length was made clear in testimony given both before the Lord’s time and after it. If He said the Great Tribulation is going to be cut short then He contradicted both Daniel and John, something the bible can’t do. More likely the intent of Matt. 24:22 is to explain that if the Lord doesn’t return to put an end to the Great Tribulation at the appointed time no one would survive it, but for the sake of His elect He will return to put an end to it.

The 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days references lead us to believe that Earth’s original calendar consisted of 12 months with 30 days each, and in fact it appears that prior to about 700 BC all the Earth used such a calendar. Since then a number of different calendars have emerged , apparently to compensate for changes that took place in the Earth’s orbit about that time. (The calendar used by Western Nations today is only about four hundred years old.)

In addition, Daniel 9:27 warns that an Abomination That Causes Desolation will occur in the middle of the last seven years, or 3 1/2 years from the end. In Matt. 24:21 Jesus identified this event as the official beginning of the Great Tribulation. Paul confirms this and adds detail by describing the anti-Christ standing in the Temple proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thes. 2:4) This confirms the length of the Great Tribulation as being 3 1/2 years.

The Abomination That Causes Desolation is a particular defilement of the Temple that’s happened only once in history. In 168 BC. Syrian King Antiochus Epiphanes captured the Temple and converted it into a pagan worship center. He erected a statue of Zeus with his own face on it in the Holy Place, thereby proclaiming himself to be God, and demanded the Jews worship it on pain of death. It was called the Abomination That Causes Desolation because it made the Temple unfit for use and triggered the 3 1/2 year Maccabean Revolt. The Jewish re-capture and cleansing of the Temple in 165 BC is celebrated in the eight day Feast of Hanukkah.

To summarize, Daniel spoke of an Abomination That Causes Desolation that would mark the middle of the last 7 years. An event called the Abomination That Causes Desolation in 1st Maccabbees took place in 168 BC, over 300 years later. But 200 years after that, Jesus told His Disciples that the people of Israel should watch for a future Abomination That Causes Desolation and referred to Daniel’s prophecy in doing so (Matt. 24:15-21). He said it would kick off the Great Tribulation. Paul also described a future event similar to the one in 168BC saying the “Day of the Lord” could not precede it (2 Thes. 2:3-4).

Therefore, the Abomination That Causes Desolation that took place in 168 BC was only a partial fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Jesus referred to it so people in the end times would be able to recognize the complete fulfillment when they saw it. They’ll know to look for a man standing in the Temple calling himself God and demanding that his image be worshiped. Jesus told those living in Judea (Israel) that when they see it to flee into hiding immediately, for the Great Tribulation will have begun.

4) The Purpose Of The Rapture

They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead–Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes. 1:9-10)

The Greek word translated from in the above passage is “apo.” Literally it means to keep the subject (us) away from the time, place, or any relation to the event being referenced, in this case the coming wrath. This verse is one of several that explain the purpose of the Rapture of the Church, and that’s to hide us safely out of the way before God visits His wrath upon the Earth. OK, but when does God’s wrath come?

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev 6:15-17)

After Revelation 3 the church is not seen on Earth again until we come back with the Lord in Rev. 21:2, as predicted in Rev. 17:14. In Rev. 4 John sees a door standing open in heaven and is told to “Come up here!” Instantly he finds himself in the spirit, standing before the throne of God at the end of the age. He’s been transported to the time of the Rapture.

He sees 24 elders there, seated on thrones of their own around the throne of God. They’re all dressed in white with crowns of gold on their heads. They bow down before the Lord and place their crowns at his feet giving honor and glory to him. In chapter 5 they call themselves Kings and Priests as they sing praises to God. By their titles, clothing, crowns, thrones, and activities it’s clear that they represent the newly raptured church.

There are four Old Testament views of the Throne of God. Those in Isaiah 6:1-4 and Ezekiel 1 and 10 don’t include these 24 elders. The one in Daniel 7:9-10, an end of the age vision, hints at multiple thrones but offers no detail. But in the Book of Revelation the 24 elders are mentioned 12 times. Some group has arrived in Heaven that wasn’t there in Old Testament times, and 12 is the number of government. It’s the Church, come to rule and reign with Christ.

So the Church is raptured in chapter 4, and is shown in heaven in chapter 5, while on Earth God’s wrath is loosed in chapter 6 as the passage above clearly states.

Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians was written in 51AD and contains the very first clear mention of a Rapture ever given. Neither Jesus nor the Disciples ever taught it. Its existence was kept secret until then just as its exact timing is secret to this day. Many of the mistakes made about the timing of the rapture come from futile attempts to find Gospel passages that teach it, as we’ll see in our discussion about the Second Coming.

We think the Rapture is perhaps the single most important component of End Times prophecy, and for us it is. So why didn’t Jesus ever mention it? 1 Cor. 2:6-10 gives us the answer. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The phrase “rulers of this age” refers to Satan & Co. Had they known the astonishing abundance of blessings the Lord would shower down upon those who accept His death as payment for their sins, they would have done everything in their power to prevent the crucifixion. Think of it. We’re called Kings and Priests, given incalculable wealth and influence, made heirs with Christ of God’s estate, something Satan could never achieve and we could never deserve, and it’s all ours just because we believe. This realization came to Satan after it was too late to prevent it and turned what should have been his greatest victory into an agonizing defeat. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:15)

But like everything in God’s plan, you’ll find hints of the Rapture even in the Old Testament. Look at this passage from Isaiah 26:19-21. But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins.

Notice how the pronouns change from second person when God speaks of His people to third person when He speaks of the people of the Earth. It means the two groups are different. One is told to hide because the other is going to be punished. (Note: the Hebrew word translated “go” in the phrase “Go my people” is translated “come” in some translations, recalling the command to John in Revelation 4, “Come up here!” But the word has another primary meaning and it’s my favorite. It means vanish. “Vanish, my people!” Yes we will.)

Now read two of Paul’s most popular Rapture disclosures. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes 4:15-17)

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. (1 Thes. 5:1-5) For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes. 5:9)

Here’s another even more dramatic shift of pronouns. Using the third person, Paul describes unbelievers caught by surprise, thinking they had entered a period of peace as destruction suddenly rains down upon them, cutting off all hope of escape. Then Paul switched to the second person, telling believers we shouldn’t be taken by surprise as the End approaches, and finally to the first person as he includes us with him, not appointed to wrath.

Now watch carefully as we lay Isaiah’s writings over Paul’s. But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. (The dead in Christ will rise first.)

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. (After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.)

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.)

Although the Bible contains 66 books and involved 40 writers, there’s one Author and His message is consistent from Genesis through Revelation. This is how Paul could open his passage on the rapture by saying, “According to the Lord’s own word …”. The Lord never mentioned the rapture in the Gospels. Paul had read Isaiah.

Of course there are several more passages where our Lord promises to protect us from the coming judgments. And although the cynics can truthfully say that the word rapture doesn’t appear in any of them, don’t pay any attention to that. They’re just trying to confuse us.

They know that rapture is a word of Latin origin, not Hebrew or Greek, the languages of the Bible. (The earliest translation of the Bible was into Latin, and the term rapture comes from there.) Its Greek equivalent is harpazo, which is found in the Greek text of 1 Thes. 4:15-17. When translated into English, both words mean “to be caught up, or snatched away.” There’s a similar situation with the word Lucifer, also of Latin origin. It doesn’t appear in any of the original texts either, but no one would be naive enough to deny the existence of Satan on such a flimsy basis.

Next time we’ll cover the final three of Seven Things You Have To Know To Understand End Times Prophecy. See you then.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 07/19/2011 4:53:31 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: HushTX; righttackle44; patriot preacher; FrdmLvr; caww; Buddygirl; bareford101; fishtank; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 07/19/2011 4:55:12 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

bump for later


3 posted on 07/19/2011 4:59:41 PM PDT by troublesome creek
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Is this an open or a closed discussion, i.e. do you need to be a member of some group to comment?


4 posted on 07/19/2011 5:02:09 PM PDT by varmintman
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To: varmintman

It is a caucus thread for dispensationalists. You need to be a dispensationalist to participate.


5 posted on 07/19/2011 5:07:31 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

I have a problem with “the 4000 years from the creation to the cross”..this is not in the Bible.


6 posted on 07/19/2011 5:15:16 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
>> If you don’t believe the Lord’s work was sufficient, but that the coming judgments are needed to finish what He only began, then you have much bigger problems than figuring out when the Rapture will occur.)<<

Amen, Amen and Amen!

A well written and well documented article.

7 posted on 07/19/2011 5:15:22 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

There are 73 original books in the original Roman (Latin) canon.


8 posted on 07/19/2011 5:17:40 PM PDT by famousdayandyear
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To: beethovenfan
http://www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk/pages/books/keys2.php
9 posted on 07/19/2011 5:28:01 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: GiovannaNicoletta

The statement “a thousand years is as one day” is just a way of stating that God is outside of time - therefore billions of years are of no greater consequence to Him than billions of miles. To believe that the earth is only
6000 years old requires one to discard overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. I believe in a literal Adam and Eve but will not try to establish a date.


11 posted on 07/19/2011 6:07:14 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: beethovenfan
Many of us simply believe the earth is at least 6000 years old. Adding billions of years to this figure for the sole purpose of corrupting Genesis is where we throw a fit.

Patience.

I have a hunch many things could be revealed very soon.

12 posted on 07/19/2011 7:03:47 PM PDT by labette ( Humble student of Thinkology)
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To: labette

I fail to see how Genesis is corrupted, given that there are NO dates. The “corruption” is a figment of your imagination.


13 posted on 07/19/2011 7:06:26 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: beethovenfan
Well, I suppose we could roll around in the dirt a kickin' and a gougin' and ruin an excellent thread by GiovannaNicoletta.

..Perhaps we could postpone it for later ?

14 posted on 07/19/2011 7:19:29 PM PDT by labette ( Humble student of Thinkology)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

For the convenience of lurkers, part one was posted here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2748625/posts


15 posted on 07/19/2011 7:45:26 PM PDT by labette ( Humble student of Thinkology)
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To: beethovenfan

1. The scientific evidence is underwhelming. There is an large body of observations that have been organized into a massive number of just-so stories that are used to support what has become the religious dogma of the scientific community. Those same observations fit better with a young earth and a world-wide flood.

2. Basing your interpretation of Genesis on a convenient but unrelated verse in 2 Peter is sloppy hermaneutics. If you want to use verses in 2 Peter to help understand Genesis, use 3:5-6. Verses 7-8 are talking about the coming judgement, not the past one.

3. I’m not locked in to 6000 or so years. While the pattern in in the Genesis geneology is “A lived __ years and begot B... B lived __ years and begot C”, etc., I do think some of the steps could contain more than one generation - B might be C’s great-great-grandfather, rather than his father, and C might just be the next significant person in the line. But I think the actual age of the earth is a lot closer to 6K than 1B years.


16 posted on 07/19/2011 10:05:17 PM PDT by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

bump


17 posted on 07/20/2011 12:49:15 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: beethovenfan
To believe that the earth is only 6000 years old requires one to discard overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

Well, first of all, there is evidence in the Scripture that the creation of Adam and Eve was the beginning of an age, and that there were other ages before the time of Adam and Eve and the earth itself is actually billions of years old. The Bible also talks about a "great animal, called “behemoth,” which "bends it's tail like a cedar" and with which Job was familiar and can be found in Job 40:15-24, which throws some real doubt on evolutionist theory.

There is also evidence in Scripture that the earth was "without form and void" after Satan had his rebellion against God and God, after this rebellion, renewed the earth and rebuilt it just as the Bible says He will do after the thousand year Millennial Kingdom.

Second, it's not real smart, as a fallen human being with extremely limited knowledge about what went on before we were born, to declare that when God said He created the earth in six days, and then later states that a day to him is as a thousand years, that that statement simply isn't true. I think it's wiser, due to the fact that we have no way of knowing all the angles and all the facts, just to take God at His word and believe what He says.

18 posted on 07/20/2011 1:48:21 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: grumpa
Just a few questions for you: www.prophecyquestions.wordpress.com

Just one question for you. What part of "Dispensational Caucus" don't you understand?

19 posted on 07/20/2011 6:33:04 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: beethovenfan
I fail to see how Genesis is corrupted, given that there are NO dates. The “corruption” is a figment of your imagination.

You're technically correct, as there are no dates given per se, but by tracking the genealogy of the sons of Adam through Seth to the point where we do have a reliable date, you can postulate the actual date of man's creation. This is the same method that the Jews use to determine their calendar year.

I would also point out that the 6,000 years is from the creation of man, not necessarily from the creation of the world. There's evidence, as others have pointed out, that there's an undetermined gap of time between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. We don't know that there actually was a gap there, but we don't know that there wasn't either.

Finally, while I enjoy a YEC/OEC/Evolution debate from time to time and I understand how important the "1 day : 1k years" principle is to portions of the Dispensational theory, we're really getting off track here.

20 posted on 07/20/2011 6:42:14 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Thank You and God Bless You GiovannaNicoletta!


21 posted on 07/20/2011 6:53:48 AM PDT by marbren
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To: paladin1_dcs; GiovannaNicoletta
There is one problem with the caucus designation on FR. It does not allow us to say what is wrong with another belief by name. We have to be very careful.

This line from the OP is about as close as you can get, and is OK, because it does not identify the denominations.

For instance, many Christians today believe that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and has inherited all of Israel’s blessings. Israel no longer serves any purpose in the world, they think, so when God talks about Israel in the New Testament He really means the Church. Therefore they misunderstand the Doctrine of Election, the Olivet Discourse, the Great Tribulation, and other New Testament teachings having to do with Israel.

22 posted on 07/20/2011 7:22:54 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren; GiovannaNicoletta
There is one problem with the caucus designation on FR. It does not allow us to say what is wrong with another belief by name. We have to be very careful.

I agree that the way Caucus designations are handled here is imperfect, but it's better than a truly open thread as those types of threads get derailed way too easily. Caucus threads are best for study and debate among friends over minor differences, not debate over the validity of the idea at all, so I can see the value of this type of thread.

Besides, there are too many variables within other denominations to blanket-label a denomination as one way or another. We all know that there's a remnant of Christians who desire to serve God faithfully in almost all Churches, so being wise about our accusations is expected of us by God, otherwise we may cause a Brother or Sister to stumble. It doesn't change what the denomination believes as a whole, but we still must be wise as serpents but gentle as doves, so to speak.

23 posted on 07/20/2011 8:34:24 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: marbren

You’re welcome, marbren, and God bless you too dear friend!


24 posted on 07/20/2011 3:24:33 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: paladin1_dcs; marbren
Marbren, I saw that line too and it caused me a little hesitation but it was very general and didn't specify anyone in particular so I went ahead with the DC designation. We do strive to be careful, though, with our caucuses.

I am very grateful for the option to have a caucus thread where those of like mind can have a civilized, edifying discussion without religion trolls and hijackers wrecking the thread with their agenda of casting doubt on the word of God.

For example, disagreements on when the Rapture will take place can occur among genuine believers in Christ, but the problem arises when the Scriptural, God-given doctrine of the Rapture is denied altogether. This happens frequently on the Religion forum, and it happens with almost all Scriptural doctrines, and it is good to have a mechanism where doctrine can be discussed and believers can fellowship without having to deal with those who don't believe God or His word and attempt to poison the well, so to speak.

25 posted on 07/20/2011 3:34:42 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; marbren
For example, disagreements on when the Rapture will take place can occur among genuine believers in Christ, but the problem arises when the Scriptural, God-given doctrine of the Rapture is denied altogether. This happens frequently on the Religion forum, and it happens with almost all Scriptural doctrines, and it is good to have a mechanism where doctrine can be discussed and believers can fellowship without having to deal with those who don't believe God or His word and attempt to poison the well, so to speak.

I know exactly what you speak of Gio, and you're right that it happens with almost every doctrine out there but I think the saddest cases of them all are cases where the one doing the attacking is a known Brother or Sister who cannot or will not see that just because we believe a passage means what it says instead of what our Church or Denomination says it means, we're not deluded fools or heretics. This problem is especially rampant in threads that discus either the Dispensation Theory or anything to do with Catholicism. It causes me no small amount of pain to see people, who are known to me as true Brothers and Sisters in Christ, tearing each other apart over these doctrines. I know that there will be disagreements and I'm far from perfect in this, but I've seen arguments which devolved into outright personal attacks that I'm sure had our Enemy doubled over in side-splitting laughter at the fact that we do this to each other and then attempt to turn around and claim that we love the sinner but hate the sin.

Anyway, I've said my peace on the matter so let's get onto something a little more encouraging.

While I admit that I lean more towards a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil position, there's a part of me that can see that the Pre-Wrath position could be seen as correct, the Scriptures state that we're not appointed to Wrath, not that we'll escape the troubles after all, as well as a way in which the Post-Trib position could be correct. For example, even though the restrainer is removed, what's to say that His presence would be removed from us if we were left here until the end? God could have us wait until the full Tribulation was over, but just be under His protection. I admit that this view is very hard to defend, but there is some defense for it.

My question though is this. If Pre-Wrath is correct, would this present a problem to Dispensation Theory's treatment of the 144K witnesses? I wouldn't think so, but am unsure because of the timing of when those witnesses are called out.

What do you two think?

26 posted on 07/21/2011 6:35:14 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
While I admit that I lean more towards a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil position, there's a part of me that can see that the Pre-Wrath position could be seen as correct, the Scriptures state that we're not appointed to Wrath, not that we'll escape the troubles after all, as well as a way in which the Post-Trib position could be correct.

IMHO the division between the Church and Israel is so neat and clean. The pre wrath rapture position (3 years or so into the tribulation) muddies this and muddies the imminent return of Christ in the clouds for the rapture throughout the last 2000 years. The pre wrath position is waiting for the antichrist.

27 posted on 07/21/2011 7:50:45 AM PDT by marbren
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To: paladin1_dcs
If Pre-Wrath is correct, would this present a problem to Dispensation Theory's treatment of the 144K witnesses? I wouldn't think so, but am unsure because of the timing of when those witnesses are called out.

I've heard others who were previously pre-Trib take a pre-wrath view; it is a relatively new theory and I have simply never come across any Scripture to support it.

The book of Revelation is written chronologically. The first seal judgment that Christ opens is the revealing of the Antichrist, and the beginning of his rule. This first seal is opened by Christ, and therefore the Tribulation judgments are initiated by Him, in chapter 6, verse 1.

The 144,000 Jewish evangelists do not come on the scene until chapter 7. The Church is not mentioned in Revelation after chapter 4, so the apostasia Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has already happened. The Church has been removed, and the job of spreading the Gospel has been given to the 144,000 and to angels.

There is no doubt that the Church will be gone for the entire seven years of the Tribulation. There is no Scripture which indicates that we will go through the judgment that God says is for those who reject His Son, and every promise is given to the Bride that we will not have to go through any of God's wrath. Our judgment was taken care of at the Cross. This judgment, the judgment of the Tribulation, is for those who do not know Christ.

28 posted on 07/21/2011 3:45:35 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
The book of Revelation is written chronologically.

This is the point where I was stumbling in regards to Pre-Wrath. I was under the impression that Revelation was written chronologically, but chronologically from each point of view so that it wasn't necessarily completely chronological. For example, when John is writing about the events on Earth, those events are in chronological order and when he's writing about events in Heaven, those events are in chronological order, but it's not positively known that the entire book is written in chronological order. That's the source of my confusion on this matter and the reason I was looking into the Pre-Wrath position as being a possible contender. What portion of Scripture are you using to determine that all of Revelation is in chronological order?

29 posted on 07/22/2011 5:47:55 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
There is no doubt that the Church will be gone for the entire seven years of the Tribulation. There is no Scripture which indicates that we will go through the judgment that God says is for those who reject His Son, and every promise is given to the Bride that we will not have to go through any of God's wrath.

I want to go back and touch on this point. I never said that the Bride would be under the Wrath of God, I agree with you there, but my question is what portion of the Tribulation is considered the Wrath of God and what portion of it is considered the Wrath of Satan? The teaching that I've always heard, which tends to support the Pre-Wrath position, is that only the latter 3.5 years is the Wrath of God being poured out on an unbelieving world. The first 3.5 years is actually the Wrath of Satan being poured out on the Jews. I guess my question is, where in the Tribulation do you see God's Wrath beginning? I take it from what you posted earlier that you see it from the very beginning, but that's not what I've always been taught so I want to hear how you've come to your conclusion.

30 posted on 07/22/2011 5:53:47 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
It's been years since I read, and believed at that time, Rosenthal’s Pre-Wrath rapture concept. Is the division between Israel and the Church part of it? Does the antichrist show up before the rapture? Is the white horse rider the antichrist or our Lord Jesus Christ?
31 posted on 07/22/2011 10:44:59 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
IMHO the division between the Church and Israel is so neat and clean. The pre wrath rapture position (3 years or so into the tribulation) muddies this and muddies the imminent return of Christ in the clouds for the rapture throughout the last 2000 years. The pre wrath position is waiting for the antichrist.

I agree completely with your post. The Bible is divided dispensationally. Romans through Philemon is written for the Church the Body of Christ, the dispensation of the Grace of God, and ends with the rapture of the church. Notice the next book is Hebrews. Written to..who...the Hebrews. The middle wall of partition is gone, and God is once again dealing with Jews and Gentiles on separate basis. Next comes James..written to the 12 tribes..then Peter..written to the strangers scattered...then John, written to the elect lady and her children, then Jude, written to those contending for the faith, then Revelation..the second coming of Christ the Messiah and setting up of His kingdom.

The only way to explain this change in God's attention back to Israel is that the Church the Body of Christ has been raptured. And Daniel's final week is beginning. The Book of Hebrews, like the Book of Acts, is a transitional Book. Acts transitioned from Israel to Jews and Gentiles as one Body. Hebrews transitions back to Israel. And God's dealing with her.

32 posted on 07/22/2011 11:12:19 AM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
The Book of Revelation is pretty much written in chronological order, but there are exceptions to this. One is when there’s too much happening for John to explain it all at once, because we can only talk about one thing at a time.

He has to describe things in heaven and things on earth all happening at the same time. So from time to time he’ll “stop the action” to show us everything that’s going on. For example Rev. 17 is really an expansion of Rev. 14:8, and Rev.18 gives us the detail of Rev. 16:19.

I believe that it is significant that the Church is not mentioned after chapter four, and then only in chapter 19 when the Church is described as returning to earth with Christ. The chapters beginning in chapter six up to chapter 19 detail the events of the Tribulation. I think Jesus had John write the book this way as a form of assurance to His bride that we would not be on earth for the Tribulation.

I also believe that the judgments themselves are given chronologically. Each group of judgments is worse than the previous group.

Here is an outline which summarizes the chronology and sequence of Revelation:

The Chronological and Sequential Structure of the Book of Revelation

33 posted on 07/22/2011 6:19:04 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: paladin1_dcs
what portion of the Tribulation is considered the Wrath of God and what portion of it is considered the Wrath of Satan?

There is no part of the Tribulation that is the wrath of Satan. Jesus Christ opens the first seal, and each and every bit of wrath and judgment are purely and only that of Jesus Christ. Now Jesus uses the Antichrist, who will eventually be possessed by Satan, to carry out many of the judgments, but God has used evil men throughout history for judgment.

God's purpose in bringing the seven year Tribulation on earth is to fulfill His promises to Israel and purge the earth prior to His setting up the Millennial Kingdom. Satan would not willingly participate in assisting God in preparing the earth for setting up His kingdom.

Revelation 5:1-14 is the prelude to the Tribulation in which Jesus Christ is presented as the Lamb, Who is the only worthy One, who has the authority and position to open the seven sealed books. The seven sealed books hold the coming judgments of God. Only Christ is worthy to open and beginning the our pouring of God's wrath on the earth.

It is the Lamb Himself, who opens the first seal (Rev. 6:1) and thus initiates the beginning of the seven years of the Tribulation. Revelation 5:4 plainly says that no man could open the book. Further, Revelation 6:3, states that "He" referring to the Lamb of verse 6:1, and verses 5, 7, 9, and 12 continues in opening each of the subsequent Seal Judgments. Clearly, these are not judgments initiated by man or Antichrist or Satan, but by the Worthy Lamb of Chapter 5. It is Jesus Christ who opens each of the seals in the first half of the Tribulation and brings God's wrath on the earth. Yes, it is the Antichrist who persecutes God's people and all peoples on earth, but he does so at the discretion of Jesus Christ. God will be using the Antichrist as the instrument of His wrath. The Antichrist could do nothing unless he was allowed by God to do so.

So, all of the judgments and wrath are that of God, not Satan.

The teaching that I've always heard, which tends to support the Pre-Wrath position, is that only the latter 3.5 years is the Wrath of God being poured out on an unbelieving world. The first 3.5 years is actually the Wrath of Satan being poured out on the Jews. I guess my question is, where in the Tribulation do you see God's Wrath beginning? I take it from what you posted earlier that you see it from the very beginning, but that's not what I've always been taught so I want to hear how you've come to your conclusion.

As we see from Revelation, the entire seven years are the wrath and judgment of God. It is Jesus Christ who begins the seven year Tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath as Revelation 6 reveals. The beginning of God's wrath is in His allowing the Riders of the Four Horsemen to rain their various destructions on the earth. In the beginning it is the Lamb who opens the first seal and unleashes the Antichrist, the first horseman riding a white horse upon the earth. The first rider riding a white horse and wearing a crown is allowed to go forth to conquer the world. This is a picture of the Antichrist who will rise to power on earth as a great political leader and present himself as a savior to the world.

It is God, Who after the Rapture stops the present retraining work of the Holy Spirit and allows Satan to go forth bringing destruction on humankind through his control of the Antichrist. In our present dispensation of the Church Age, the Holy Spirit is preventing or restraining Satan from unleashing his destructive wishes on the earth.

Paul reveals this in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-15:

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)

God's plan is that He will use Satan and the Antichrist to bring His judgment on the earth during the seven year Tribulation. The restraining work of the Holy Spirit, which keeps him in check presently, will end as the seven years begin. Satan will then be allowed to rein destruction on the earth through the Antichrist. It is God who initiates the destruction on earth by allowing Satan and the Antichrist to work unrestrained. It is God who is now restraining Satan and this clearly shows that it is the action of God that allows him to rise to power and thus bring destruction to this present age.

I see the wrath of God beginning at the very start of the Tribulation.

34 posted on 07/22/2011 6:42:09 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

GiovannaNicoletta, I Agree. I do not believe anything you have posted on FR has caused caution in my spirit when I read it.


35 posted on 07/23/2011 10:55:18 AM PDT by marbren
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To: grumpa

This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Dispensational Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively dispensationalist then do not post on this thread.


36 posted on 09/02/2011 9:33:11 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Save for later reading..Thanks for posting this


37 posted on 09/02/2011 9:42:20 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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