Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
First of all, I don't want you to think I was avoiding your question all day today. I wasn't. :o)
I do not think the "argument" is so much that those in Heaven do anything different than a fellow Christian does with prayer on Earth, but rather (1) how do we know for certainty that the "saint" is indeed IN heaven and (2) what are our directions for requesting prayers from others. I think we agree that there are no Scriptural mandates for praying to those already dead. We've already talked about the commands to not seek to contact the dead so I look at the idea of "praying to the dead" as no different.
In reading some of the New Advent articles about the subject, they speak of the doctrine of the "communion of the saints" as establishing both prayers "to" departed Saints as well as the doctrine of Purgatory for prayers "for" those already dead, not "yet" saints. I reject the idea of even a need for Purgatory - since it is in Christ that we are cleansed of all sin - so no one can be or needs to be prayed for in some intermediate place so that they can more quickly, or less painfully, proceed to Heaven.
As for the praying to the Saints for their intercession, like I said, I don't see any such thing in Scripture ever being encouraged but it's not my place to tell anyone they can't or shouldn't. What I think happens with some is they imagine someone whom they "know" is already in God's presence in Heaven having an "in" or special audience to God's ear which has advantages over asking a mere mortal still here on Earth to pray for them. Even more so with Mary presuming she can not be refused in what she asks of her son, Jesus. That just kind of gives me an icky feeling, no offense.
So when you speak of WHOM something is being asked for changes the essentia of what is being asked, in light of what I said above, the "whom" being asked to pray for us/with us certainly does essentially change the prayer. It makes no difference if the Saint goes through Jesus to the Father, because that isn't really the issue so much as whether or not asking an already "beatified" saint over a "maybe" saint here grants an edge or advantage. If it did, then why even bother asking mere humans to pray for us? Why did Paul encourage the believers to pray for him, his ministry, each other, etc.? Sounds like, if prayers to Saints was more advantageous, he would have rather encouraged that.
And, to me, this little phase of the argument is a morality play about why it is good (sometimes at least) to lower the head and keep charging at a question. Shortly after the headache begins, other things begin to shake loose.
What I'm seeing is what YOU see in the whole "intercession of the saints" thing is something I would call "conjuring." I hereby explicitly, unreservedly, and entirely reject that as both spiritually perilous and totally lousy theology.
The way through the conundrum of "God (or Jesus) cannot refuse Mary anything," is to recall Mary's greatest word in Scripture: Be it unto me according to your will.
We hold that as the Premier(e) among the the (you might say) thoroughly sanctified, Mary enjoys a will thoroughly united to God's. He does not refuse her because her first and last word is, "Fiat mihi secundum Verbum Tuum" (Okay, in Aramaic, not Latin.)
If I EVER get my life in order and can find the Latin text, I am going to attempt a translation of Augustine's letter to Proba on prayer. In it is the answer to my dear daughter's to ask which she called me all the way from Californica: Why does Jesus tell us to pray "Thy will be done"? He's going to do it anyway, isn't He?
It is not for me to say why Jesus did something, but surely in that petition we are committing ourselves to give God our assent, to hand over our wills to Him, aren't we? We are proleptically taking the stance of the blessed.
"Lord, in my dreams, with my waking thought, throughout the day until thought limps back into dream, I resist you. I put my choices first and yours second or even further back. Yet Lord, you know that I long for your good, having tasted enough of mine to know it is flat and disgusting. So now formally, but looking forward to the day when I can, by your grace, mean it thoroughly and sincerely, I say,'Thy will be done.'"
SO, when I think of the intercession of the saints, I do not and have not thought for decades of "conjuring", of making God, through Mary, an offer he cannot refuse. As I say, it is, strictly speaking, unthinkable.
Yes, I do light candles ($3 a pop for a 24+ hour candle) to Mary and to Thomas Aquinas, and if we had a rack of 'em in front of the icon I'd light 'em to Dominic as well. But I do so mostly because I like to do a pretty thing, and flickering candle are pretty things. And yes, I, speaking exceedingly loosely, would say that Anthony of Padua, through his "mighty intercession", helped me find some very important missing files yesterday.
But I note that when I note that a petition has been granted, I thank the saint AND God. And it intrigues and delights me that in one of the set prayers in the breviary we ask God to let Mary intercede for us.
I love image this prompts in me. First I go to Mary and say, "Please talk to God for me." Then I go to God and say, "Is it okay if Mary speaks for me, please?"
But, just to tidy up, IF -- as I think it does NOT -- the idea of the intercession of the saints ESSENTIALLY included this 'conjuring' aspect, THEN it would be different in essence from asking fellow freepers to pray for us, AND it would be a bad thing, IMHO, tending to the shattering of monotheism and the promotion of superstition and magical thinking.
In that connection, did you see this yesterday? Our Lady of Copacabana
Eew, Ick! But seriously, if some people want to practice devotion to Mary in front of an ugly statue swathed in ridiculous damasks, well, I don't care. But when they start saying they're not taking the statue out of the church because "she doesn't like to be outside," then, right there, I draw the line. It's a STATCHOO people! Keep it inside if you want to protect the garish halo or keep the equatorial sun off the damasks. But get clear in yo' HAIDS!
You could even say, "We get the impression that nuestra Señora doesn't want this statue carried hither and thither." But "She doesn't like to be outdoors"? The Inquisition is never around when you really need it!
Hello -
You wrote:
“....As for the praying to the Saints for their intercession, like I said, I don’t see any such thing in Scripture ever being encouraged but it’s not my place to tell anyone they can’t or shouldn’t. What I think happens with some is they imagine someone whom they “know” is already in God’s presence in Heaven having an “in” or special audience to God’s ear which has advantages over asking a mere mortal still here on Earth to pray for them. Even more so with Mary presuming she can not be refused in what she asks of her son, Jesus. That just kind of gives me an icky feeling, no offense.
So when you speak of WHOM something is being asked for changes the essentia of what is being asked, in light of what I said above, the “whom” being asked to pray for us/with us certainly does essentially change the prayer. It makes no difference if the Saint goes through Jesus to the Father, because that isn’t really the issue so much as whether or not asking an already “beatified” saint over a “maybe” saint here grants an edge or advantage. If it did, then why even bother asking mere humans to pray for us? Why did Paul encourage the believers to pray for him, his ministry, each other, etc.? Sounds like, if prayers to Saints was more advantageous, he would have rather encouraged that.....”
I am thinking that there weren’t too many canonized saints during the life of St. Paul....
I am wondering what you make of Romans 8:26-39 ? The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, for the prayers of the saints, and even more Jesus Christ intercedes for all.
Thanking you,
"I have come down from heaven--not to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." John 6:38-39
?
Raised them UP from WHAT?
Ping to above
Nana...
subtract 4000!
Raise the body. Remember in Revelation where the souls who came out of the tribulation are in heaven crying for revenge on those who killed them? Their bodies have not been raised yet.
“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (Revelation 7:15-17 NKJV).
Those are the saints who have come to know the Lord during the tribulation and have lost their lives for their beliefs. Their bodies will be raised and glorified after Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation.
Paul indicates that then living believers will be ‘be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ who rise first) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.’ (I Thess 4:17) From this I surmise that we believers will be then in the new bodies, and the new bodies for others comes later. Also, the Rapture of His Bride will be so astonishing an event that even witnessing it, unbelievers will fall for a great SAtanic lie to explain it away. He Who has been restraining will no longer be upon the Earth, and the evil will pour forth like locusts upon the souls of unbelievers.
So it's not surprising that some would conclude that we peddle cheap magic. We have to live and to teach to counter-act by word and example the superstitious teaching of such folks.
Mad Dawg it’s a lot like the people who want the St. Joseph statue to bury upside in order to sell their house.
I have realtors who are not Catholic come into my store to buy one for their clients.
Is is superstition? Yep, you bet it is.
I just ask them to treat this with respect and remember to unbury the statue when their house sells.
I also tell them not to even think about asking a priest to bless this.
The people who engage is that kind of superstitious conjuring would probably not benefit from reading the last few pages of this thread. I kind of wish their pastors and bishops would read it though.
Chogyam Trumka (sp?),a Vajrayana lama who knew Thomas Merton and who came to this country to preside over a very weird and sometimes scandalous organization in Boulder,CO, wrote a book with an excellent title,”Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism”.
Fr Jacek Buda (no kidding!) late of Charlottesville, now of Phoenix, speaks of “bottom line Christianity”, where the preoccupation is not an encounter with Christ in which everything we have is placed at hazard, but with “What will you do for me when I die and what will you do for me in the meantime and what have you done for me lately?”
And when this mindset, the miracles and consolations focus, dominates a Catholic, it SHOULD scandalize us, and, as recent posts show, it appropriately scandalizes our non-Catholic brethren.
Where’s the Inquisition when we really need it. [wry, sorrowful grin.]
Boatbums, your concept of the intercession of the saints is wrong, but your having it is partly my responsibility for not having the, ah, intestinal fortitude to rebuke boldly and clearly my brethren who reduce this (at least to us) fundamental doctrine of the working out of Pentecost into a series of contemptible and greedy parlor tricks. To paraphrase Cicero, “Nos, nos fratres sororesque, desumus.”
Of course you are unworthy. But when do you hope to be worthy?...All the good works that we could ever do would never make us worthy, in this sense, of Holy Communion. God alone is worthy of Himself, He alone can make us worthy of Him, and He alone can make us worthy with His own worthiness.-- St. Catherine of Siena
There was a good reason to do so.
but...........
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