Posted on 10/26/2011 8:31:31 PM PDT by rzman21
By Francis J. Beckwith 1 In a piece recently published in the Catholic and Evangelical portals of the Patheos website, Warren Cole Smith explains why he cannot support Mitt Romney’s candidacy for President of the United States. “A Vote for Romney is a Vote for the LDS Church” reminded me of the sort of anti-Catholic screeds that were widely published during the presidential candidacy of Senator John F. Kennedy.
Catholics conversant with the 1960 election will recognize in Mr. Smith’s piece the sort of histrionics that were employed against them and their faith in the not-too-distant past. Consider this excerpt from Smith's essay:
The Christian worldview teaches that there is a short tether binding beliefs to the values and behaviors that flow from them. If the beliefs are false, then the behavior will eventually – but inevitably – be warped. Mormonism is particularly troubling on this point because Mormons believe in the idea of “continuing revelation.” They may believe one thing today, and something else tomorrow. This is why Mormons have changed their views, for example, on marriage and race. Polygamy was once a key distinctive of the religion. Now, of course, it is not. Mormons once forbade blacks from leadership roles. Now they do not. What else will change? Where to begin? First, the claim that “if beliefs are false, then the behavior will eventually – but inevitably – be warped,” depends on the plausibility of the belief in question and not on the overall plausibility of the worldview from which it heralds. For example, suppose that Mr. X, a Mormon, believes that marriage is a one-flesh communion between one man and one woman, and thus he aligns himself with the Catholic tradition, though he believes this understanding of marriage because he heard it from a Mormon prophet and he believes that the prophet speaks infallibly on such matters.
Although, as a Catholic, I do not believe that Mormon prophets are real prophets, this does not mean I believe that Mormon prophets may not utter true beliefs. After all, Mormonism developed out of nineteenth century American Protestantism, which is itself the result of the sixteenth century schism within Catholic Christianity. For that reason, it should not be a surprise to discover that the LDS [Latter Day Saints] get a lot of things right about the nature of the moral life and civil society, even though one may have good reason to believe that Mormonism as a theological tradition is mistaken.
Mitt Romney: Should his Mormonism trouble Catholics?
So, there is nothing incoherent in saying that one may have good reasons to reject a particular theological tradition, such as Mormonism, Islam, or Christian Science, while at the same time claiming that the tradition embraces beliefs that are nevertheless true. Mr. Smith, however, seems to believe that a belief is false if it is tethered to a worldview that is false. But that cannot be right, since it is overwhelmingly the case that people who hold a religious faith we think is mistaken are able to quite easily hold true beliefs that are derived from that faith but can be defended as true independently of it.
Second, Mr. Smith seems to be claiming that because LDS theology has changed over time based on the directives of an unaccountable magisterium, therefore, Mormon candidates cannot be trusted to hold those beliefs that they presently hold in common with traditional Christians. This is reminiscent of the old anti-Catholic canard that one ought not to vote for Senator Kennedy because he will take orders from the pope. So, just as a Catholic candidate must unthinkingly listen to the Supreme Pontiff (as it was often depicted during the 1960 election), an LDS candidate must obey his capricious and authoritarian leadership as well.
But in both cases the critic holds a one-dimensional and superficial understanding of doctrinal development. Take, for example, the two LDS cases cited by Mr. Smith – polygamy and the priesthood. In both cases the LDS Church has moved in the direction of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the Reformers, all of which have rejected polygamy as well as racial tests for clerical office. So, far from being a sign that portends to a theologically arbitrary LDS future, these shifts are positive and reasonable developments in Mormon doctrine that traditional Christians should applaud and support. That is, one may view these shifts as evidence that Mormonism is moving closer to the moral and doctrinal commitments of the Christian communities from which it sprang in the nineteenth century.
Third, it seems that the changes within Mormonism are far more modest than the sort one finds within Mr. Smith’s own Evangelical Protestantism. For example, on the matters of women’s ordination, abortion, contraception, divorce, eternal punishment, Chalcedonian formulation of the Incarnation, infant baptism, ecclesiology, the nature of God, and even the inerrancy of Scripture, Evangelicals have held a wide variety of views over the past fifty years, all of which are considered by many Evangelical scholars as well within the bounds of orthodoxy.
But unlike Mormonism, or even Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, there is no magisterium within Evangelicalism that is constrained by the doctrinal pronouncements of its predecessors, such as in church councils or in official catechisms. Pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback Church has far more latitude for changing his church’s doctrine than do Pope Benedict XVI and Mormon President Thomas S. Monson in tinkering with their own.
The lesson to be learned here is that one should examine another’s theological tradition with at least as much charity and rigor as one expects others to assess one’s own. (I know that this last sentence will probably come back to haunt me).
Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He is the author or editor of over a dozen books including Politics for Christians: Statecraft as Soulcraftand The New Mormon Challenge: Responding to the Latest Defenses of a Fast Growing Movement, finalist for the 2003 Gold Medallion Award in theology and doctrine.
Thank GOD that the CATHOLICS haven't changed!
I'm beginning to think that RZMAN21 is an EXcatholic; TURNED mormon!
Excellent imagery! Mr. Santorum shows every sign of believing that government’s gun-to-the-head can be used to support the warm and fuzzy results he prefers, without turning into a monster. I find it odd that an adult man with, apparently, some functionality in daily life could be so naive.
QUESTIONS FOR MITT ROMNEY
Compiled by Richard Packham
News reports say that Governor Romney. looking ahead to the possibility of presenting himself as a candidate for the U.S. presidency in 2008, is meeting privately with Christian leaders to allay their concerns about the fact that he is a Mormon. (See Boston Globe, Nov 2, 2006 at http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/11/02/romney_consults_evangelical_leaders ) These leaders apparently are concentrating on areas such as Romney’s view of gay marriage, abortion, and whether Romney is really a Christian. Undoubtedly Romney’s answers in those areas will satisfy most of these Christian leaders.
However, not knowing much about Mormon doctrine and practices, most Christians are unaware of some of the areas in which the idea of a Mormon as president would raise serious doubts in their minds. They simply don’t know what to ask the governor.
Below are some suggested questions which should be asked of Governor Romney, both by Christian leaders and by journalists.
According to Mormon scripture, the founder of your church (Joseph Smith) was told by God in 1820 that all the churches of the day were “an abomination.” Do you agree with God’s view of other churches, as quoted by Joseph Smith? (Pearl of Great Price, JS-Hist 1:18-19)
According to your church’s Articles of Faith, number eight, the Book of Mormon is the “word of God.” Do you believe that?
According to the Book of Mormon there are only two churches: the “church of the Lamb of God [presumably the Mormon church]” and the “church of the devil,” “the whore of all the earth.” Do you agree with that Mormon scripture? (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)
According to the Book of Mormon a dark skin is a curse imposed by God on the unrighteous and their descendants as a punishment for sin. Do you agree with that doctrine? (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 12:22-23, Alma 3:6, 2 Nephi 5:21-22, Jacob 3:8, 3 Nephi 2:15-16, Mormon 5:15; references to the “Lamanites” are taken to be referring to Native American “Indians”.)
According to Mormon doctrine, the president of the Mormon church is a prophet of God, receiving revelations and commandments (God’s laws) directly from God. Do you believe that? (Doctrine and Covenants , 21:5, 43:3, 58:18)
One of the most sacred rituals for adult Mormons, performed only in a Mormon temple, is a ceremony called “the endowment.” Have you undergone this ritual? If so, in what year?
To be admitted to the temple for the endowment ceremony a Mormon must be “in good standing” in the church and undergo a personal interview with church leaders, who examine the member as to whether the member obeys church commandments, supports church leaders, pays full ten percent tithe, wears the prescribed Mormon underwear, abstains from coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco and extramarital sex, and other matters. If the member answers correctly, a pass to the temples (called a “temple recommend”) is issued, good for two years. Do you have such a temple recommend now, indicating that you are in good standing in your church?
In the secret Mormon temple ceremony Mormons take an oath of obedience to “the law of the Lord.” Did you take that oath?
Before 1990, the endowment ceremony required members to take an oath of secrecy not to reveal anything that happened in the temple under penalty of death. Did you take that oath?
In the temple ceremony Mormons also take a secret oath to “consecrate your time, talents and everything which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...” Did you take that oath? Would you consider the office of the presidency of the U.S. to be a “blessing” with which the Lord had blessed you?
Mormons teach that by obedience to all the commandments of Mormonism, a Mormon may attain the highest degree of heaven and ultimately become a god, creating and ruling over his own universe. Do you believe that? Is this your ultimate personal goal?
Although your church presently condemns the practice of polygamy, the scripture commanding it is still in the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132. Many early Mormons were polygamous and married (”sealed”) to numerous wives “for eternity.” Do you believe then that there will be polygamous families in Mormon heaven?
The extensive interest of Mormons in genealogical research is to enable them to perform “baptisms for the dead,” thus posthumously inducting previous generations into the Mormon church. Many non-Mormons become angry when they learn that the names of their ancestors - having often been faithful members of some other religion during life - have been used in this way. often without permission of the living descendants. The posthumous baptism of many Holocaust victims caused considerable anger among Jewish groups, and your church agreed to stop the practice as to them (but admitted that it was unable to do so). Do you feel that such anger is justified? (Would you feel anger if some voodoo cult was using your deceased grandparents’ names in some voodoo ritual, and then announcing to all the world that they were now voodoo worshippers?)
It is well documented that Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, secretly had many wives. Some of those women were at the same time married to other men, some were as young as fifteen, He claimed that he was commanded by God to enter into these marriages. Do you feel that these early marital practices of the church founder were really commanded by God? (See the book In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Mormon historian Todd Compton for detailed biographies of these wives.)
Mormons believe that when Christ returns to earth, a millennium of peace will begin under Christ’s rule (Article of Faith number ten), presumably as a single theocracy. Most Mormons believe that during that time, Mormons will be Christ’s appointed officers and that the law will conform to Mormon teachings. Do you believe that?
According to Mormon scripture (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3) Joseph Smith did more than any other man except Jesus Christ “for the salvation of men in this world.” Do you agree with that, keeping in mind the contributions of men like the Apostles, Saint Paul, Thomas Aquinas, Saint Augustine, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, and others?
http://packham.n4m.org/romney.htm
Romney’s politics are fair game. Theological orthodox, however, is not a criteria for the presidency.
Just look at the numbers of presidents who were Freemasons or Unitarians.
Have you ever read the Church fathers on matters of sacramental grace, Church authority, etc.?
Mormonism has a lot more in common with the Gnostic sects that were prevalent in the early centuries.
Perhaps the gulf between Catholicism and Mormonism might be further than between Catholicism and Evangelicalism, but that doesn’t make Evangelicalism any more orthodox.
Lutherans have retained far more of apostolic tradition, especially when it comes to the sacraments and ordained ministry than Baptists have, but that doesn’t change the heterodoxy of Lutheran beliefs about grace and Sola Scriptura.
I don’t have the right to judge your soul, but I have the right to judge your beliefs because the Church has already judged them, assuming you are a Protestant.
You are hysterical.
From my perspective as a Catholic. Evangelicalism has kept half of the original loaf of apostolic Christianty while Mormonism has kept a quarter of a loaf.
But you still only have half of a loaf.
Then you better pull the beam out of YOUR eye rz, because judging the doctrines is what is being done.
Mormonism has a lot more in common with the Gnostic sects that were prevalent in the early centuries.
Incase you haven't figured out, mormonism is sometimes referred to as American gnosticism by some.
Perhaps the gulf between Catholicism and Mormonism might be further than between Catholicism and Evangelicalism, but that doesn’t make Evangelicalism any more orthodox.
If you believe that then your understanding of mormonism is very poor.
Have you ever read the Church fathers on matters of sacramental grace, Church authority, etc.?
I have read some of the ANF writings - though no where exhaustive. In any case I do not consider their writings superior to what is preserved in the bible.
Yet the core essentials remain the same - Evangelicals are as Christian as Catholics or Lutherians. Check out the Vatican II writings.
Yet those same core essentials are denied by mormonism, which makes them inelegible to be grouped with the rest of Christianity.
The Mormon religion is polytheistic. J Smith may have taken bits and pieces out of the Revival movement in the 1800s, but his "theology" is not the same.
Mormonism to use your analogy, hasn't kept a quarter of a loaf but rather eats rice instead of bread.
Mormonism is even crazier than the earlier Gnostic heresies, because those at least were heresies
Mormonism is a polytheistic religion with inherent dislogic in it (it cannot be an offshoot of Judeo-Christianity as we are monotheists), so theologically they are completely different from all stripes of Christians
While Evanglicals, Pentecostals, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutheans, Anglicans, Methodists etc. will fight among each other, we are still all under the umbrella term "Christians".
Mormons are not
Which is correct -- we do not re-Baptize a person validly baptised by Trinitarian baptism in a Lutheran etc. Church, yet the Church rejects Mormon "baptism" as non-Christian.
While Evanglicals, Pentecostals, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutheans, Anglicans, Methodists etc. will fight among each other, we are still all under the umbrella term “Christians”.
Mormons are not
______________________________________
Exactly
We Christians agree on the virgin birth.. that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived... that she did not have sex in order to get pregnantwith Him...
The Mormons say their Mormon god who was once a man came down to Earth and had sex with Mary...
While we Christians agree on the Trinity,
the Mormons deny “God in Three Persons”
While we Christians agree that Jesus shed His blood on the Cross and He died on the Cross to save us,
Mormons claim that salvation or as they called it “atonement” happened in the Garden of Gethsemenee when their Mormon jesus sweated blood and that the Cross has nothing to do with salvation...
and so on...
Ya know; OTHER folk have noticed that, too!
Indeed you are correct Cronos. So in the excellent comparison you did between Christianity and mormonism doctinally there are no 'beams' or such - it is a pretty straight across evaluation in which mormonism doesn't even come close to Christianity.
Perhaps some need to study up on their doctrines so that difference is more evident to them.
Ya know “militant Catholicism always makes me suspect. It is very unusual to my experience and I have had more than a little time working together as a Christian of the protestant flavor with fellow Catholic Christians.
Also I know from my time as an Orthodox Christian that the gulf between all three of us is far narrower than any sea between the three of us and the LDS.
The Mormons aren’t Trinitarians, so according to the ancient canons their baptisms are invalid.
Frankly, I think the Catholic Church should return to the pre-Vatican II practice of conditionally baptizing Protestants who baptize in Jesus’s name or who reject sacramental grace.
Mormon baptism lacks what Catholic theology calls “proper intent,” so by the same reasoning Reformed and Baptist baptisms should be regarded as having the same efficacy.
In my Melkite eparchy, Protestants are almost always received by conditional baptism.
Lutheran baptism is valid because it has the same form and intention as Catholic/Orthodox baptism.
Not really. The Mormons are neo-Gnostics.
http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm
Many gnostics were polytheists believing in an evil god and a good god.
Mormonism is a Christian heresy, and so is Protestantism.
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