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"The Roman Catholic Mass is undergoing major overhaul." (CNN gets it wrong!)[Catholic Caucus]
Insiight Scoop ^ | November 10. 2011 | Carol Olson

Posted on 11/11/2011 5:13:17 PM PST by Salvation

Thursday, November 10, 2011

"The Roman Catholic Mass is undergoing a major overhaul."

[Note: I started this post five days ago, then decided to let it go. But I've decided to post it because I'm curious—see the end of this post—for reader's reactions to the approaching changes to the Missal that will take effect at the start of Advent.]

Is it? Really? I guess it depends somewhat on one's perspective.

Here is a longer quote from the post titled,
"Big changes to Catholic Mass spur confusion in the pews", on the CNN blog:

The Roman Catholic Mass is undergoing a major overhaul.  In an effort to unify how the global church prays, the English translation of the church's worship service is being modified in order to more accurately reflect the Latin from which the Roman Missal is translated.

The Catholic Church is known by some as a bastion of permanence that has not often yielded to the forces of change in the modern era. In many ways the changes harken back to the Mass spoken in Latin, as it was in the United States prior to the 1960s.

“There is an Italian proverb,” said the Rev. Msgr. Kevin W. Irwin, a professor of liturgical studies at the Catholic University of America, “that ‘every translator is a traitor.' "

“Every translation is less than the original,” he said.

The liturgical changes are “all within the responses and the language of the Mass. In the grand scheme of things, they’re fairly minor,” said Mary DeTurris Poust, whose book on the subject came out in March.

Frankly, I'm of two minds on how to approach this claim of "big changes" and "major overhaul" and "confusion". On one hand, I wince a bit when reading the Mass is "undergoing a major overhaul", especially since what is happening is certainly not as much of an "overhaul" (or "underhaul") as what happened in the early 1970s.

As most readers know well, what has happened and is happening is that
a revised version of the Missale Romanum is being implemented in a few weeks, at the start of Advent on November 27th. The changes, especially for the assembly, are not numerous or radical, but are much (much!) better translations from the Latin text. (In many cases, they are now the same or very close to the same as what is heard at Divine Liturgy in a Byzantine Catholic parish, such as the one I attend.) And, frankly, if people are "confused" about what is happening, it causes one to wonder just how capable of clear thought and baseline attentiveness is the average Catholic?

On the other hand, the changes are not simply tweaks or mere revisions, but are part of a focused and important effort to regain the liturgical riches and glorious language of worship that was lost (or tossed aside) forty years ago. Anthony Esolen has written well of what the translators did four decades ago:

Thence came the mischief. They ignored the poetry. They severed thought from thought. They rendered concrete words, or abstract words with concrete substrates, as generalities. They eliminated most of the sense of the sacred. They quietly filed words like “grace” down the memory hole. They muffled the word of God. They did not translate. Or if they did, it was not into English. A more obedient reading of the Vatican instructions would not have produced the thin, pedestrian, and often misleading version Catholics have used these last forty years, one that depended, for whatever reasons, upon the destruction of words, and images, and allusions (particularly biblical allusions) and the truths they convey.

In their work, the wonderful dictum of Thomas Aquinas, bonum diffusivum sui, “the good pours itself forth,” was inverted into malum diminuendum alterius, “evil seeks to diminish the other.” Among other things, that meant the petty withholding of words of praise, presumably because they were considered redundant. But is that the mark of love? Is a second smile, or a second kiss, redundant, because there has been a first? And if there has not been a first smile or kiss, are such things unnecessary, because they seem to serve no strictly utilitarian function?

I have searched the 1973 Order of the Mass alone (a mere fraction of all the prayers that have been retranslated) and found thirty instances of such laudatio interrupta. Most of the time an adjective of praise, such as sanctus, gloriosus, beatus, and a few others, simply disappears: sancte Pater becomes Father, dilectissimi Filii tui becomes your son, beatae Mariae becomes Mary, diem sacratissimam, on Christmas and Epiphany and Easter and all those glorious days in the history of salvation, becomes that day. Sometimes, though, a whole phrase is simply dropped as too hopelessly cast in the language of holiness: sanctas ac venerabilis manus, when Jesus blesses the wine in Eucharistic Prayer I, vanishes; so, in the same prayer, does sanctum sacrificium, immaculatam hostiam; so also in conspectu maiestatis tuae. No need, apparently, to dwell upon the holy and venerable hands of the Lord, or the sacred sacrifice and immaculate victim we offer in the Eucharist, or the presence of God’s majesty, which we hope one day to enjoy.

I have reviewed hundreds of pages of Latin text, with the first Novus Ordo’s rendering beside me. I defy any English-speaking Catholic in the world to defend the work, on any grounds whatsoever, linguistic, poetic, scriptural, or theological. Eventually, the Vatican, noticing that the liturgy had in fact not been translated into English, ordered that the job be done. Hence every prayer said at every Mass for every day of the year and every purpose for which a Mass may be said has in the last few years been translated, an immense undertaking.

This recent article in the New York Daily News does a good job of outlining, in terms accessible to non-specialists, the basic issue at hand:

A decade in the making, the new Mass is a more precise translation from Latin than the current version, peppered with more theological words and Biblical images.

Supporters say it will bring a more reverent, solemn tone to services, while detractors think the new language is too obscure or stilted.

However, it includes this vague statement, without supporting quotes:

Others say the translation is a step backward because of its grammatical similarity to the Latin-language Mass and its use of unfamiliar vocabulary.

If you're keeping score at home, some of the alleged failings of the new translation are:

1. The language is too obscure and stilted
2. The language is too similar to the "Latin-language Mass"
3. The language includes "unfamiliar vocabulary"

Here's one simple (and hardly original) take, which isn't offered as a complete theory or explanation, but I think makes sense: The original English translation of forty years ago, as Esolen documents well, purposefully simplified—or "dumbed down", in my view—or eliminated biblical images and theological terms deemed too complex, or confusing, or whatever. Throw in forty years of mostly mediocre to horrible catechesis and you have a generation of folks who are, generally speaking, historically, biblically, theologically, and liturgically illiterate. Then, when it becomes evident that the new translation is in fact going to be enacted, the same people who were largely responsible for this mess (or their faithful disciples) begin whining and complaining about how difficult, stilted, challenging, outdated, unfamiliar, irrelevant, and so forth is the new translation. In sum, the cult of liturgical experimentation and expertism is finally being put in its place, and those running the silly (but serious) show are throwing hissy fits.

Here is the most telling quote from the Daily News piece:

The theological precision of the new translation got a thumbs-up from schoolteacher Timothy Thomas, 29, of the upper East Side. “There’s more meat on the bone — something you can really sink your teeth into,” said Thomas, a parishioner at the Church of Saint Vincent Ferrer.

We all know that many Catholics are sick of mediocrity and banality; they want meat and richness and fullness and beauty. Which is why the theologically challenging works of Benedict XVI are being read rather widely and why Fr. Robert Barron's "Catholicism" has been so successful, to give just two prominent examples.

To come full circle, I don't think the new translation is a "major overhaul" in the sense it is going to demand some sort of superhuman, radical effort on the part of the laity to learn. In that regard, the number of changes are relatively few (I know they are more substantial for clergy) and, in my opinion, easily managed. But, again, the nature of the changes are indeed substantial and significant—and in a very good way. That said, I'm curious to hear from readers on this topic; specifically:

• What do you think of the new translation?
• What have you done to prepare for its implementation?
• What is your sense of how the implementation will go in your particular parish or diocese? (I'm not looking for dirt or trying to play liturgical police, but am hoping to better understand how this is actually working.)



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: brokencaucus; catholic; catholiclist; liturgy; media
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**We all know that many Catholics are sick of mediocrity and banality; they want meat and richness and fullness and beauty. **

Can the REAL Catholics here on FR shout "Amen!"

1 posted on 11/11/2011 5:13:20 PM PST by Salvation
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To: All
And now the truth:

Related Links, Articles, and Book Excerpts:

The Adoremus Missal website
A New Translation for a New Roman Missal
(DVD)
Mass Revision: How the Liturgy is Changing and What it Means for You, by Jimmy Akin
A Biblical Walk Through the Mass, by Dr. Edward Sri
The Mass of Vatican II | Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J.
The Spirit of the Liturgy page
For "Many" or For "All"? | From God Is Near Us: The Eucharist, the Heart of Life | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Foreword to U.M. Lang's Turning Towards the Lord: Orientation in Liturgical Prayer | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Music and Liturgy | From The Spirit of the Liturgy | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
The Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer | From The Spirit of the Liturgy | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
On Saying the Tridentine Mass | Fr. James V. Schall, S.J.
Reform or Return? | An Interview with Rev. Thomas M. Kocik
Does Christianity Need A Liturgy? | From The Heresy of Formlessness: The Roman Liturgy and Its Enemy | Martin Mosebach
Walking To Heaven Backward | Interview with Father Jonathan Robinson of the Oratory
Rite and Liturgy | Denis Crouan, STD
The Liturgy Lived: The Divinization of Man | Jean Corbon, OP
Worshipping at the Feet of the Lord: Pope Benedict XVI and the Liturgy | Anthony E. Clark, Ph.D.
The Latin Mass: Old Rites and New Rites in Today's World | Anthony E. Clark, Ph.D.


2 posted on 11/11/2011 5:14:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

AMEN!


3 posted on 11/11/2011 5:17:10 PM PST by philly-d-kidder (AB-Sheen"The truth is the truth if nobody believes it,a lie is still a lie, everybody believes it")
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To: Salvation

The RC has never had a “major overhaul”. One doesn’t overhaul the truth or it would have been a lie.

Luther tried it but failed.


4 posted on 11/11/2011 5:17:56 PM PST by 353FMG (.)
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To: Salvation
The new translation seems reasonable when it is merely going back to the more accurate translation before the “change”. Where the new translation appears to be an academic exercise in linguistics, e.g. using a long unfamiliar word instead of two or three simpler words where there is no single word available for direct translation, it seems counterproductive.
5 posted on 11/11/2011 5:23:24 PM PST by Prokopton
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To: Salvation
They didn't accidentally "get it wrong."

They are deliberately spreading disinformation in hopes of stirring the pot.

6 posted on 11/11/2011 5:26:11 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (The enemy of my enemy is my candidate.<sup>®</sup>)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Catholic Ping!


7 posted on 11/11/2011 5:34:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
(CNN gets it wrong!)

That's kind of like saying Five O'Clock Charlie "gets it wrong"...

8 posted on 11/11/2011 5:44:04 PM PST by COBOL2Java (Obama is the least qualified guy in whatever room he walks into.)
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To: Salvation

New Mass BUMP


9 posted on 11/11/2011 5:47:14 PM PST by kitkat (Obama, rope and chains)
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To: Salvation

Its funny how the same liberal social justice CINO’s that all talk about welcoming change are now the ones most upset by these changes.


10 posted on 11/11/2011 5:47:40 PM PST by icwhatudo ("laws requiring compulsory abortion could be sustained under the constitution"-Obama official)
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To: Salvation

We’ve been using the new text for several weeks now and we’ve had a large number of homilies and meetings about it to get everyone up to speed. It’s still hard to remember where the changes occur, but I think our pastor is really doing a good job about getting us ready.


11 posted on 11/11/2011 5:49:41 PM PST by perez24 (Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap.)
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To: Salvation

Amen.

This is a start....I just wish they would go back to the Latin mass. They could write the English translation beneath it and it would really stretch the Catholic mind and give children something to decode. They could learn Latin words like I did-—I had Latin in high school— to help with science and the English and Romance languages.

I think Vatican II was part of the Marxist infiltration—dumbing down— of the Church to destroy it from within. Just my personal “feelings”.


12 posted on 11/11/2011 5:49:41 PM PST by savagesusie
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To: icwhatudo

The next step should be doing away with Mass facing the people, which stripped it of its external solemnity and made it about entertainment.

I’m happy the Byzantine-rite eparchies never adopted it.


13 posted on 11/11/2011 5:53:21 PM PST by rzman21
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To: perez24

I think the pastors learned from the previous changes that a lot of pre - use work was needed for parishioners.

Our priest has been doing classes and is going to preach on it this week to try to reach more people.

I’ve been in a church where they are already practicing with a card in the pews.

I’m so excited — can’t wait to get our cards in a couple of weeks.


14 posted on 11/11/2011 5:55:36 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: rzman21

I want the Communion rails back too!


16 posted on 11/11/2011 5:56:48 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: savagesusie

I agree that Vatican II — the U. S. Bishops tried a dumbing down — now they are learning that it didn’t work.

Basically all these changes have been in the foreign languages. Just English and French went off the path.


17 posted on 11/11/2011 5:58:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: savagesusie

The English version of the Mass was ALWAYS available.

On the right hand page of your Missal, with the Tridentine Mass on the left hand page, in Latin, throughout the entire Liturgy.

Anyway, if Holy Mother Church is finally throwing away the touchy-feely tambouriny `folk mass’ horrors of post Vatican II, then so much the better.

Deo gratias!


18 posted on 11/11/2011 6:18:07 PM PST by elcid1970 ("Deport all Muslims. Nuke Mecca now. Death to Islam means freedom for all mankind.")
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To: Salvation

Oddly enough, our pastor, who is young and very orthodox, has uttered barely a peep about the new translation, other than one passing reference and a small notice in the bulletin. I’m surprised there isn’t more explanation or catechesis, but maybe he’s worried about the reaction. However, I think it necessary to give the peeps the basic reasoning that this is to provide a more accurate translation of the original Latin text.


19 posted on 11/11/2011 6:19:34 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: rzman21

This picture reminds me of a small Anglican Church that I was in.


23 posted on 11/11/2011 6:33:21 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cicero

Accuracy with the original Latin Vulgate is, I think, the objective of this revision.

Going to hear Father Jeremy Driscoll speak tomorrow — he was on the team that helped translate the priest’s parts.


24 posted on 11/11/2011 6:35:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

They were the norm in the Western rite across Europe before the Council of Trent.


25 posted on 11/11/2011 6:51:07 PM PST by rzman21
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To: Salvation

AMEN


26 posted on 11/11/2011 7:23:11 PM PST by Havisham
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To: Salvation

One Church I go to has re-installed a Communion rail. And it has a traditional Latin Mass at one of its Masses as well.


27 posted on 11/11/2011 7:34:12 PM PST by murron (Proud Mom of a Marine Vet)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation
      Amen!      

We have little booklets in our pews so that each person can review the new changes whenever they get a chance, but the only new things we have been actually using during Masses so far have been some of the musical parts during the Sunday Masses, such as the new "Gloria". I try to review the new wordings for everything at every Mass I go to, but the only thing I have secured in my memory so far is "And with your spirit".      :)

My memorization skills have unfortunately decelerated a bit with the passage of time, and they sometimes "take the scenic route" these days before things stick.
29 posted on 11/11/2011 7:51:09 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee." - St. Augustine)
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To: Prokopton; 353FMG

This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Catholic Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively Catholic then do not post on this thread.


30 posted on 11/11/2011 8:11:07 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Catholic Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively Catholic then do not post on this thread.

Although I am a conservative, practicing Catholic, I will make sure never to intrude on this Caucus again. Not my style, not my understanding of the "Universal Church".

31 posted on 11/11/2011 8:31:46 PM PST by Prokopton
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To: Prokopton

Your post was restored per Freepmail indicating that you are a member of the caucus after all.


32 posted on 11/11/2011 8:35:39 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: rzman21
Mentioning other faiths will result in either a) your posts being removed or b) the caucus label being removed. When other faiths are mentioned they have an interest in speaking for themselves.

Also, are you a member of this caucus - a currently active Catholic?

33 posted on 11/11/2011 8:37:44 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Please remove me from membership in your caucus.


34 posted on 11/11/2011 8:48:56 PM PST by Prokopton
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To: Salvation

Is CNN trying to cause trouble?


35 posted on 11/11/2011 9:09:24 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: icwhatudo

They will be the ones caught “flatfooted” by the upcoming changes in the next few weeks.


36 posted on 11/11/2011 9:15:20 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: icwhatudo

“Its funny how the same liberal social justice CINO’s that all talk about welcoming change are now the ones most upset by these changes.”

And our bishop is one of the worst. Most of the priests are just as bad. The rest of them are only awful.

I expect to see this implemented just as soon as the Holy Father comes here and conks this bishop over the head with his crozier.

Been trying to get a baby baptized for six months now.

These people are more miserly with the sacraments than Scrooge was with his gold.


37 posted on 11/11/2011 11:22:47 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

YOU can baptize your baby yourself....and you SHOULD... ANY Catholic can baptize someone.


38 posted on 11/12/2011 1:52:18 AM PST by Ann Archy ( ABORTION...the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Religion Moderator

I’m an Eastern Catholic. We are Catholics, period.


39 posted on 11/12/2011 5:32:15 AM PST by rzman21
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To: Salvation

Amen!!! ;-)

It is refreshing to see that so many bishops have implemented thorough preparation and solid catechesis to prepare the laity for this wonderfully improved translation. This has involved much more than merely learning “word changes.” They have helped people to see the rich and profound celebration that really takes place during the Mass. In our own diocese, it has been much more than intellectual, academic type preparations. It has been beautifully spiritual as well. May have stated that their sense of AWE at what takes place during the Mass has grown by leaps and bounds.

(From what I read on this thread, it would seem that some catechesis on Vatican II might be worthwhile as well.)

;-/


40 posted on 11/12/2011 5:33:29 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Prokopton
Although I am a conservative, practicing Catholic, I will make sure never to intrude on this Caucus again. Not my style, not my understanding of the "Universal Church".

Can you tell us about yourself? We need conservative, orthodox Catholics who believe in the Church that Jesus Christ Created and the Holy Spirit Commissioned at Pentecost to participate fully and eagerly in every aspect of life, including here at FR on the RF.

41 posted on 11/12/2011 5:40:27 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: SumProVita
It is refreshing to see that so many bishops have implemented thorough preparation and solid catechesis to prepare the laity for this wonderfully improved translation.

Amen, brother. I have gone up publicly against our bishop and upbraided him in front of the cameras for his view on various things, but I must say that the diocese is preparing very indepth for this change.

42 posted on 11/12/2011 5:42:48 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Prokopton

Do you mean “consubstantial”?

It’s as much an English word as it is Latin, not unfamiliar to serious Catholics either.


43 posted on 11/12/2011 5:47:12 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: MarkBsnr

Thanks for sharing that, brother.

Your sister in Christ

;-)


44 posted on 11/12/2011 6:08:11 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: SumProVita

My error. Many thanks.


45 posted on 11/12/2011 6:42:46 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Salvation

“Can the REAL Catholics here on FR shout “Amen!””

Amen! I’m chomping at the bit. To be completely truthful, I would, given my druthers, prefer my OF with the priest ad orientem, with Gregorian Chant, more solemn vestments and the OF in Latin, if possible. I love the Traditional Latin Mass, but cannot often be where I wish. At the least, the new translation is more reverent, more appropriate, and closer by far, to the same in Latin.

A pair of ICC lectures for folks interested in this:
The Holy Mass: Reform, Ruin & Restoration
(http://instituteofcatholicculture.org/media.htm#holymass)

Liturgiam Authenticam: The True Story Behind the New Translation of the Roman Missal
(http://instituteofcatholicculture.org/media.htm#la)


46 posted on 11/12/2011 7:23:26 AM PST by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: Ann Archy
Actually one does not need to be a Catholic to baptize someone, provided the form and matter are correct.

V. Who can Baptize?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58

47 posted on 11/12/2011 7:44:52 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Prokopton

>>Please remove me from membership in your caucus.<<

The Caucus label goes on a thread. There is no membership.


48 posted on 11/12/2011 8:31:08 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: Salvation

AMEN!+


49 posted on 11/12/2011 10:19:57 AM PST by Highway55
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To: netmilsmom
The Caucus label goes on a thread. There is no membership.

From the Caucus Administrator:

Your post was restored per Freepmail indicating that you are a member of the caucus after all.

Regardless, have no concern that I will ever intrude on what has been self titled as the "Catholic Caucus" again. I made the mistake that I thought it was about religion.

50 posted on 11/12/2011 12:30:01 PM PST by Prokopton
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