Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Senior bishops predict great results from new Mass translation
cna ^ | November 26, 2011 | David Kerr

Posted on 11/27/2011 6:41:43 AM PST by NYer

Third Edition of the Roman Missal - Credit: Mazur

Rome, Italy, Nov 26, 2011 / 07:24 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- As English-speaking Catholic parishes begin using the new translation of the Mass on the first Sunday of Advent, leading members of the hierarchy are predicting great gains for the Church.

“I have a feeling that this will be a great moment for deepening people’s liturgical piety and liturgical spirituality,” said Cardinal Raymond Burke, a member of the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship, in comments to CNA.

“The prayers are much more beautiful and they carry with them a staying power,” observed Cardinal Burke.

He predicted that the newly-rendered prayers would “get people thinking about what they prayed, and taking consolation from it, and also inspiration.”

The Rome-based cardinal has been waiting until this weekend to start using the new English missal, in line with the Church in the U.S. But he offered Mass with the new texts on a recent visit to England, where many dioceses have already switched over.

“I have to say the texts are really much, much richer and much more beautiful,” concluded the cardinal, who described the previous translation as “often very bland and stripped of any richness.”

With his promulgation of a new edition of the Roman Missal in 2000, Blessed John Paul II gave the Church the opportunity to make a more faithful English translation of the Mass. The previous version had drawn criticism for its looser adaptation of the original Latin.

New York Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan, currently in Rome for his “ad limina” visit to the Pope, recently used the new translation for the first time. Earlier this week he offered the freshly-translated prayers while prerecording his televised Mass for the first Sunday of Advent.

“Awesome, poetic, reverent language,” he said, summing up his impressions to CNA.

Archbishop Dolan also pointed out that the new texts spoken by the laity have changed less than those prayed by the priest.

“I found myself, personally, having to understandably go more slowly at Mass because I was having to look more closely at the text,” he recalled, “and that’s no bad thing.”

New York's archbishop said he was “praying with more reverence and intention and awe” as a result.

Changes for the laity include the reply “and with your spirit” spoken to the priest, rather than the response “and also with you.” Elsewhere, the threefold “mea culpa” – “my fault” – returns to the Penitential Rite, and the profession of the Creed begins with “I believe” instead of “we believe.”

Australian Roman Catholics made these changes several months ago with their shift to the new English version. “We've had no mutiny or revolution in Australia yet,” said Canberra's Archbishop Mark B. Coleridge, chairman of the committee that prepared the new English lectionary.

“Predictions of chaos, and upheaval and revolution just haven’t come to pass,” he told CNA.

The archbishop added that after a “messy transition” in some places, priests and laypeople are starting to see the new language as “richer and stronger than what we have grown up with.”

He sees almost no hostility to the changes from lay Catholics, who he says are “just getting on with it.”

Among the clergy, Archbishop Coleridge has stressed the need for advance work. While the priesthood is “more than a profession,” he said, priests still have to do their “professional preparation” before Mass – because the new texts are “a different idiom.”

Priests, he cautioned, “can’t just open the book and go for it,” without the appropriate study and practice.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: liturgy; mass; prayers
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-81 next last

1 posted on 11/27/2011 6:41:46 AM PST by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

After returning from mass today, please post your reactions to the new translations.


2 posted on 11/27/2011 6:42:56 AM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

A definite improvement, although the changes are certainly not radical. We had very nice cards in the pews from Magnificat press that had the new parts on them. There actually aren’t a lot of differences for the congregation’s words; I gather the translation of the priest’s part is a significant change, however. But our priest seemed to weather it just fine.


3 posted on 11/27/2011 6:47:02 AM PST by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer

We noticed some folks who reflexively said, “And also with you,” but more said the now appropriate “And with your spirit.” Father missed a beat in a few places, but he isn’t feeling well at the moment. Otherwise it was fine. This is from last night’s vigil Mass, which is sometimes better for the younger three (6,6,& 5).


4 posted on 11/27/2011 6:47:13 AM PST by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer

The new Mass finds it impossible to say in one word what it can in three, and uses the vernacular, only that of the theologian. I doubt I ever have used the word “consubstantial” in conversation polite or otherwise, nor in Brother Noonan’s religion class.
I see this as more make-work for liturgists. Here’s a thought; let’s go back to the pre-Vatican II liturgy to restore some actual joy and power to the Mass.


5 posted on 11/27/2011 6:53:39 AM PST by steve8714 (Where there were two, now there's only me. When will I laugh again?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

The power is always there. It is given as a great gift of our God.

Joy emanates from our response to that power of God.


6 posted on 11/27/2011 6:59:26 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: steve8714
Here’s a thought; let’s go back to the pre-Vatican II liturgy to restore some actual joy and power to the Mass.
What and miss out on ... Meanwhile ..."leading members of the hierarchy are predicting great gains for the Church."
Can someone explain what "gains" are expected? Anyone? Bueller?
7 posted on 11/27/2011 7:04:50 AM PST by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: NYer
I will post my observations.
I also know that whatever bump in attendance I see, it will only be a temporary one. These "new" translations won't get people to Mass any more...or less. People will always find reasons to go or not to go to Mass.
Five questions (Dr. Ray):
1. Do you believe in God?
2. Do you believe in Jesus and that He is the Son of God?
3. Do you believe that He came down to earth to save us and that He performaned MANY miracles?
4. Do you believe that He KNEW human nature and how to deal with it?
5. How successful was Jesus at convincing the people of His time to repent?

I use that as a gauge as to how successful any attempts at evangalization/conversion are on earth.
God's Plan isn't always clear to me, but I know He has one.
I KNOW He has one. I KNOW it.

8 posted on 11/27/2011 7:05:19 AM PST by cloudmountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

We went to see my MIL in a home yesterday. So we were two hours away from our home parish.

The Priest at the parish we attended was a veritable drama queen about how hard “HE” had to work to celebrate the new translation. He told us many times about it, including begging for applause at the end.

He was still winging it through the Kyrie, saying “Lord Jesus, you are the chosen peacemaker. Lord have mercy.” and he messed up the words to the offertory, but I can’t remember what he said.

All in all, the people were receptive. Being the first week, there were still a lot of “And also with you.” being heard, but everyone was putting in an effort.

Now, here is the question. I’ve attended two parishes in my home Diocese. In the guide, it instructed us to strike our breast during “through my fault....” and to bow during “and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary.....”. Yesterday, no gesture instructions were given at the parish we attended yesterday.

Are the gestures supposed to be there or not?


9 posted on 11/27/2011 7:10:16 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

>>Here’s a thought; let’s go back to the pre-Vatican II liturgy to restore some actual joy and power to the Mass.<<

All in time, my FRiend


10 posted on 11/27/2011 7:12:07 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom; NYer
Are the gestures supposed to be there or not?

Yes. (I saw it in the local newspaper, and also, we have them in the Spanish liturgy.)

I'm looking forward to the new prayers, and will especially listen for the Quality Adjectives, when I go to English Mass for Immaculate Conception.

My parish has been practicing "And with your spirit" for several weeks. Most were saying it at Mass on Thanksgiving Day.

11 posted on 11/27/2011 7:16:36 AM PST by Tax-chick (Thomas Sowell. Accept no substitutes!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

Actually, the pre-Vatican II liturgy did use the word consubstantial, and also literally repeated certain words and phrases three times. You would have known this even in Latin, although sometimes low masses were inaudible and the people did not make any responses. Also, the old low masses were very fast because a lot of priests had developed a sort of speed-reading technique, just doing a fast mumble, since the people couldn’t hear most of it anyway.

There was a brief interim mass between the end of Vatican II and the promulgation of the Novus Ordo where the pre-Vatican II low mass with a few minor changes was said in a vernacular translation. I actually remember some of these responses from that time. I wish they had kept that mass and not gone to the Novus Ordo. We would have had none of the problems that we have had for the last 40 years.

As a translation of the Novus Ordo, the new one is much more accurate and if you examine it, you can actually see some of the “bones” of the old rite under it. Personally, I think it is the Pope’s plan to reintroduce a revived Old Rite mass, probably but not always in the vernacular or in a mix of Latin and vernacular, that would essentially be like the “interim mass” I mentioned but include the new Calendar of the Saints (since there are many new saints) although possibly bring back some of the old calendar, such as Rogation Days.

However, this is a massive undertaking and he may not be able to complete it. But I think this new translation is actually a start in that direction.


12 posted on 11/27/2011 7:27:37 AM PST by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick

I guess they are still winging it in our area. *sigh*

A joyous Advent, Lady!


13 posted on 11/27/2011 7:28:43 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom
I think you're going to find (still) some minor different gestures and responses in different parishes. I wouldn't be too concerned.
14 posted on 11/27/2011 7:34:22 AM PST by Rational Thought
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

The parish at which we attended Mass had been preparing for the changes for a few months, just a few minutes each week. The priest seemed to get the changes right on his side of things - it was clear that he'd done his “homework,” and most of the folks seemed to get the new responses correct (I slipped once on “with your spirit.”).

It was a little distracting, because the priest insisted on reminding us throughout the Mass, as we were to say one of the new responses, that we were about to say a new response. Folks generally also used the appropriate gestures.

It's amazing what five minutes of effort each week for a couple of months will do in terms of creating acceptance and uniformity.

I remember the old Mass in the vernacular, before we went to the new Mass, and it was a joy for me to use some of the new/old responses.

It was right and just.

15 posted on 11/27/2011 8:06:44 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

I was practically in tears last night when I received Communion. It was so holy and beautiful.


17 posted on 11/27/2011 8:26:04 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steve8714
Here’s a thought; let’s go back to the pre-Vatican II liturgy to restore some actual joy and power to the Mass.
I did, I did! :) +
18 posted on 11/27/2011 8:31:55 AM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: NYer

I think it is a mess. I read the new responses for the past several weeks and didn’t like them. Today Mass was a mess and the responses were worse than just reading them. I look at it somewhat as receiving new product instuctions that were originally written in chinese and then translated into english by some guy in Egypt. Absolutely no flow and not well translated.


19 posted on 11/27/2011 8:41:51 AM PST by Oystir
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Everything was fine, beautiful Mass as always. The “And with your Spirit” will take some getting used to, but regular attendees will not have a problem. Those Christmas and Easter Catholics on the other hand.......


20 posted on 11/27/2011 9:11:39 AM PST by Gerish (Feed your faith and your doubts will starve to death.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Very nice! We had a bit of a mixup on the Prayers of the Faithful; confusion over which response the people were to give, but other than that it went fine. It will take awhile for everyone to get out of the habit of saying "And also with you," though. Most people remembered.

We sing the Greek/Latin ordinary and the Mysterium Fidei in Latin normally, so that didn't change (except for the normal changeover to Mass XVII for Sundays in Advent).

I'm anxious to hear the Roman Canon for the first time in the new translation. (Father used EP III this morning.)

21 posted on 11/27/2011 10:41:41 AM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gerish

Like a pew-mate said at Vigil yesterday: “It took me 20 years learning to say everything without reading it. I’m getting up in age, now, so I’ll probably die before I learn it all over again”.


22 posted on 11/27/2011 11:38:57 AM PST by jmax
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Rational Thought

>>I think you’re going to find (still) some minor different gestures and responses in different parishes. I wouldn’t be too concerned. <<

It’s the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
There shouldn’t be ANY differences.

That’s the Spirit of Vatican II that got us all in trouble.


23 posted on 11/27/2011 11:52:48 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: narses
Dear narses,

“I recall when I first started here some articles I posted critical of the Novus Ordo ICEL mistranslations. I was hounded! (Remember the fake deacon, what was his name?) A heretic because I suggested that the Tridentine Mass was a better choice. Good to see that the world has changed, at least imho, for the better.”

This is a little exaggerated. The Catholic crowd here is pretty conservative, as these things go. There have been few folks here who have ever defended the ordinary form of the Mass completely, at least as regarding the translation to English from Latin. "Reform of the reform" has ever been the watchword of the critical mass of Catholic posters here. I don't recall whether sinkspur defended every last word of the old ICEL English translation, but that represents just about one poster.

The problem is that within what you just wrote, you move the goalpost, from criticism of the old ICEL translation (which has been a nearly-unanimous consensus opinion here in the Catholic Caucus at Free Republic) to stating that the Tridentine, or extraordinary form, is to be preferred to the ordinary form (or, as you call is, the Novus Ordo).

There are lots of folks, indeed, nearly all here, who had problems with the old translation. But smaller numbers prefer the extraordinary form to the ordinary form.

And now that the translation of the ordinary form has been changed, and, in my own opinion, significantly improved, you will continue to find that many folks prefer the more-faithful translation of the ordinary form, but might still not prefer the extraordinary form.

Thus, one thing (better translation of the ordinary form) doesn't equal the other (extraordinary form).

My own memory suggests that it had often been the proponents of the extraordinary form (then referred to mostly as the Tridentine Mass) who were rather obnoxious in telling those of us who didn't prefer the extraordinary form to the ordinary form that the ordinary form was 1) bad; 2) even intrinsically evil; 3) could only be thrown out, baby and bathwater together, in favor of the Tridentine Mass, and even 4) some folks who went as far to say that the ordinary form was invalid.

I think that current events rather vindicate the views of the great number of “conservative” Catholics here (as opposed to those who might style themselves “traditionalists”), who preferred a more-faithful translation of the ordinary form rather getting rid of it altogether.


sitetest

24 posted on 11/27/2011 12:02:56 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
Good points!

It is also good to bear in mind that for the Latin Rite of the Church Latin is - and always has been - the normative language for the liturgy. In point of fact, if not practice, any Priest anywhere in the world could have celebrated the Ordinary form of the Mass in Latin. In point of fact, they needed permission to celebrate in the vernacular.

It took 40+ years, but Deo Gratias, finally, an accurate (official) translation in English.

25 posted on 11/27/2011 12:52:19 PM PST by TotusTuus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
Good points!

It is also good to bear in mind that for the Latin Rite of the Church Latin is - and always has been - the normative language for the liturgy. In point of fact, if not practice, any Priest anywhere in the world could have celebrated the Ordinary form of the Mass in Latin. In point of fact, they needed permission to celebrate in the vernacular.

It took 40+ years, but Deo Gratias, finally, an accurate (official) translation in English.

26 posted on 11/27/2011 12:52:28 PM PST by TotusTuus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
Good points!

It is also good to bear in mind that for the Latin Rite of the Church Latin is - and always has been - the normative language for the liturgy. In point of fact, if not practice, any Priest anywhere in the world could have celebrated the Ordinary form of the Mass in Latin. In point of fact, they needed permission to celebrate in the vernacular.

It took 40+ years, but Deo Gratias, finally, an accurate (official) translation in English.

27 posted on 11/27/2011 12:52:42 PM PST by TotusTuus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: sitetest

I recalled that myself when this translation came out. I guess that version was a temporary until the “new Mass” could be totally put together. But, I have been thinking, didn’t we say these things for some time at one time?


29 posted on 11/27/2011 1:02:10 PM PST by John W (Natural-born US citizen since 1955)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: sitetest

Rereading that old post is fascinating. The debate about what a Universal Indult might look like, the problems, the angst. And now the reality. First the Moto proprio, the lifting of the ex communications, the new translation of the new Mass. All trending towards a more Orthodox future. Truly an amazing decade in the history of the Church.


30 posted on 11/27/2011 1:08:42 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: sitetest

BTW your unfailing courtesy at a time when many of our faith used vitriol instead was then, and now, a breath of fresh air. If I have not said “thank you” it was an oversight on my part. Forgive the discourtesy as I now, (and I hope again) publicly thank you for that.


31 posted on 11/27/2011 1:12:00 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom

From various Masses I’ve been to in different areas of the Country, there’s always been differences. I just don’t see any real significance to the variations.


32 posted on 11/27/2011 1:36:57 PM PST by Rational Thought
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: narses

Reading that 2002 thread makes me very grateful for the pontificate of BXVI.


33 posted on 11/27/2011 2:33:23 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Campion

Absopositively! Viva il Papa!

Of course, not all are pleased. See http://www.salon.com/2005/04/21/vatican_6/


34 posted on 11/27/2011 3:30:50 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: NYer

My first experience with the 3rd Roman Missal went very well. No complaints at my parish.


35 posted on 11/27/2011 3:49:14 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

I have admit NYER I stumble on some of words Hey I think I stick with new missiel for few weeks until “I get confortable”

It take time and practice practice practice


36 posted on 11/27/2011 4:57:00 PM PST by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media belong to us ,resistance is futile)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom

Thanks, and the same to you! Being immensely pregnant gets one into the spirit of Advent ;-).


37 posted on 11/27/2011 5:15:00 PM PST by Tax-chick (Thomas Sowell. Accept no substitutes!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom

“>>Here’s a thought; let’s go back to the pre-Vatican II liturgy to restore some actual joy and power to the Mass.<<

All in time, my FRiend”

Absolutely! I think that’s His Holiness’ plan. It’ll likely take longer than his reign (though one can always hope). It took ~45 years for us to get this far, it’ll take awhile to get to there. I would love to have the Traditional Latin Mass a block and a half from my house (that’s how far our parish is). This is a step. The first, but not the last.


38 posted on 11/27/2011 5:44:20 PM PST by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Went to 6 pm Mass. That is normally the “teen” Mass where most of the positions, except the readers, are from the teens, including the music. The mas was heavily attended, and there were no problems. Of course people my age found the “new” language very familiar because a lot of it is a translation directly from the old Latin. e slipped a coule of time, but Father took us back through it. He just beamed as we SHOUTED “And with your spirit!”

I don’t know why people are complaining. (I heard a guy on the radio complaining this afternoon.)


39 posted on 11/27/2011 6:00:36 PM PST by afraidfortherepublic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom

**Are the gestures supposed to be there or not?**

Absolutely! We pray with our bodies as well as with our words, mind, etc.

Have you ever done something wrong and said, “Mea culpa?” Even non-Catholics understand that.

Have you ever done something wrong or heard swearing or saw someone commit a sin, and you struck your breast, in a way, saying, “Lord, I’m sorry I heard, saw, witnessed that.”

I have. My kids knew very well when I struck my breast (no words) that I was saying that it was my fault.


40 posted on 11/27/2011 6:01:21 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Oystir

We had cue cards and there were only a few goof ups when Father used a new greeting and a new dismissal that we werem’t used to.

The “Thanks be to God.” on the dismissal didn’t change so he did it all over again. LOL!


41 posted on 11/27/2011 6:04:11 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Oystir

I went to a workshop put on by someone who served on the Vox Clara team that re-translated the venacular English and made it match the Latin.

You can look for three things:
Longer sentences
Higher linguistic register (We don’t need to be dumbed down by the English speaking bishops of the U. S.)
and
a more accurate to the Latin wording.

Our Mass was beautiful. With very few errors on the assembly’s part.


42 posted on 11/27/2011 6:06:55 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: narses

.....And also in references to the word “Orthodox”, which I do not touch, being for reasons because it is still in use by the Eastern Christians, but also the day I can drop the word “conservative” although good, is deemed to political when it comes to being a “traditional” Catholic.


43 posted on 11/27/2011 6:07:11 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom
Yes, they are definitely there.

And they were there at the Anticipated Mass Saturday evening in Virginia, where we were visiting family.

Just fyi, I can recommend St. Bridget's parish in Richmond as a straight up "say the black, do the red" parish.

44 posted on 11/27/2011 6:09:38 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Biggirl

:) +


45 posted on 11/27/2011 6:10:53 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Campion

I’m looking for the Preface that our priest said that listed all the angels.

And our priest used Eucahristic Prayer III too.


46 posted on 11/27/2011 6:14:12 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Now that FR has been made stable again, and though this is very late of me to post, I just want to say that the transition to using the new English wording for the 3rd Edition of the Roman Missal today after my parish 10:30AM Sunday mass, today everyone used the laminated cards and pretty much approached the new wording changes with good humor and even I with the help of my fellow adult choir members helped eased me into the updated prayers as well.

Plus the one prayer I was most pleased with in being updated, the favorite was the updated “Nincene Creed” which uses the simple word “I” instead of “we”, as a reminder that faith in Jesus is an indiviual decision.

The question I ask is, why was the “big deal” in the months leading up to this needed changes?


47 posted on 11/27/2011 6:14:19 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gerish

“Everything was fine, beautiful Mass as always. The “And with your Spirit” will take some getting used to, but regular attendees will not have a problem. Those Christmas and Easter Catholics on the other hand.......”

Truly it will be very interesting in a couple of weeks what the “reaction” from the “C and E” Catholics are going to be when they come upon the word changes in the mass.


48 posted on 11/27/2011 6:21:21 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

After reading your comments, it makes me wonder why is there complaints after the first day or rather first weekend of the new English usage and this is coming from a woman whom for most of her life, up until yesterday, when I only KNEW of the old-style mass as a child of VCII.

This new wording update is simply making the NO a lot more prayerful and reverent.


49 posted on 11/27/2011 6:28:17 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Oystir
". . . not well translated"? What do you mean by that?

The new translation is far more accurate - the old version was what used to be called "dynamic translation", which is not what the original language says, but what the 'translator' thinks it means. What that winds up being in reality is just what the translator thinks it ought to be, which may or may not bear any relation to reality.

That's observable in the congregational parts, but far, far more so in comparing the collects and prefaces. Just one example, for the memorial of St. Peter Claver:

Deus, qui beatum Petrum servorum servum effecisti
eumque mira in eis iuvandis caritate et patientia roborasti,
eius nobis intercessione concede,
ut, qua Iesu Christi sunt, quaerentes,
proximos opere et veritate diligamus.

What it really says:

O God, who made Saint Peter Claver a slave of slaves
and strengthened him with wonderful charity and patience as he came to their help,
grant, through his intercession,
that, seeking the things of Jesus Christ,
we may love our neighbor in deeds and in truth.

What the 1973 version said:

God of mercy and love,
you offer all peoples
the dignity of sharing in your life.
By the example and prayers of Saint Peter Claver,
strengthen us to overcome all racial hatreds
and to love each other as brothers and sisters.

. . . thanks and a hat tip to Fr. Z, who has hundreds of examples of translations (and mis-translations) on his blog, What Does the Prayer Really Say?

Do you not agree that, first of all, a translation should tell us what the original says, not something else? (and especially not politically correct blather)?

"Et cum spiritu tuo" does not mean "and also with you." It means "and with your (thy) spirit". "Consubtantialem Patri" does not mean "one in being with the Father" - it means "consubstantial with the Father", or, if you prefer Cranmer's more Anglicised translation, "being of one substance with the Father". They are not the same thing theologically speaking. "Visibilium et invisibilium" does not mean "seen and unseen", it means "visible and invisible" (if I hide behind a curtain, I am unseen. But I am still visible, if you look. Something invisible is never visible and thus can never be seen, whether it's behind the curtain or not.)

And when we're talking about the worship of Almighty God, surely the meaning is more important than in my final exam on Tacitus? A lot more important?

The meaning must be accurate before we address issues of 'flow', which is very subjective, especially when you are rolling out something new for the first time, and even more so when you have a priest and congregation who have not rehearsed the new translation adequately and are stumbling through. On that issue, I would say give it time.

50 posted on 11/27/2011 6:36:18 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-81 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson