From Rome to Christ

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[rzman21]

St. Gregory of Sinai, a 13th century Greek monk, who is considered a saint by Catholics and Orthodox alike writes the following in his treatise: “On Commandments and Doctrines”

“Grace-imbued faith, energized by the Holy Spirit, alone suffices for salvation, provided we sustain it and do not opt for a dead and effectual faith rather than a living and effective faith in Christ.”
http://bit.ly/saddKM

Penance serves to humble the heart of the believer to being a better follower of Christ because he can only be served with humility.

And St. Mark the Ascetic, a 4th century Desert Father teaches:
18. Some without fulfilling the commandments think that they possess true faith.
Others fulfil the commandments and then expect the kingdom as a reward due to
them. Both are mistaken.
19. A master is under no obligation to reward his slaves; on the other hand, those who
do not serve him well are not given their freedom.
20. If ‘Christ died on our account in accordance with the Scriptures’ (Rm 5:8; 1Co
15:3), and we do not ‘live for ourselves’, but ‘for Him who died and rose’ on our
account (2Co 5:15), it is clear that we are debtors to Christ to serve Him till our
death. How then can we regard sonship as something which is our due?
21. Christ is Master by virtue of His own essence and Master by virtue of His incarnate
life. For He creates man from nothing, and through His own Blood redeems him
when dead in sin; and to those who believe in Him He has given His grace.22. When Scripture says ‘He will reward every man according to his works’ (Mt 16:27),
do not imagine that works in themselves merit either hell or the kingdom. On the
contrary, Christ rewards each man according to whether his works are done with
faith or without faith in Himself; and He is not a dealer bound by contract, but God
our Creator and Redeemer.

[mas cerveza por favor]

I do not consider the Eucharist to be the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. [...]

Am I in full communion with Christ? Do you consider me “outside” His body?

From the very beginning, the Body of Christ, the original Church, has taught the literal interpretation of Christ's command to physically consume his flesh and blood. You diverge from the original Church in this.

[Cronos]

Theo: “am I in full communion with Christ” — if you take communion as being “in fellowship or in communication” with Christ, then that’s between you and Christ and has nothing to do with you stating whatever (btw, no one has ever damned you, so stop the victimhood)

[Cronos]

As to whether you are saved or not, let's read scripture:
Rom. 8:24 For we are saved by hope:, Eph. 2:5-8 --> you are already saved by the grace of God through the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Lord, God and Savior. And Phil.2:12: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. says that you are being saved and Rom 5:9-10: 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. says that you shall be saved

[Alamo-Girl]

I recognize my Catholic family members as my siblings in Christ and it truly bothers me that I am denied the cup and bread when I attend Mass because of the doctrine of "closed communion."

I have heard the closed communion explanation before (and the close communion explanation from Lutherans) - but it doesn't satisfy because the priest or minister cannot know the mind and heart of the ones who do or do not partake of the cup and the bread.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. - I Cor 11:28

I don't wish to derail this thread into a sidebar on closed communions except to add that discerning the body of Christ also means recognizing our brothers and sisters in Him.

From Corinthians in context:

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Cor 10:1-4

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. – I Cor 10:16-17

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. – I Cor 11:23-26

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. - I Cor 11:28-32

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. - I Cor 12:12-14

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. – I Cor 12:27

And again,

[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; - Ephesians 4:4

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. – Ephesians 5:30

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. – Colossians 1:18

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. – Romans 12:4-5

I don't have to agree with you on every little thing to recognize Christ in you.

God's Name is I AM.

[Cronos]

in this case, I don’t mind if Theo points out any place where I said what his post alleges I did. To state that I did that without proof is slander.

[johngrace]

All what a word means to the individual.

It is all in the semantics. Perception of what we think of word.

Faith! Yikes! Put two experts in a room.LOL!!

se·man·tics    [si-man-tiks] Show IPA noun ( used with a singular verb )

1. Linguistics .

a. the study of meaning. b.

the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.|

3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

4. general semantics.

[Cronos]

iscool: My bible has no connection whatsoever with the African Catholic bible.

Interesting. But the poster would be correct that his holy book would not have the Gospels or the Old Testament or the Pauline Epistles, or indeed anything from the New Testament. These would be the writings or suras of whomsoever

[johngrace]

Hi Alamo-Girl- I think why is because of the real presence. Do you believe the real presence? if you do not it is a big hurdle. Not every christian believes as you proably know.

But you can go up for a blessing just cross your arms like an x and you will get an apostolic blessing.You do it during the line for communion.

[Iscool]

Now you may say that other things are required, but the one constant is that baptism does play at part in salvation.

Sure it does...But it's not water baptism...

It the baptism of the Holy Spirit...Something of which none of you have ever experienced...How could you, you don't even believe in it...

You guys are all baptized with John's baptism...

[Iscool]

My aquotes were taken directly from the Bible and I even showed the Original Greek so that you caould see the accuracy of my quotes. Whose version of the unoriginal Original Greek are you referring to???

[Iscool]

Keep twisting the scriptures and see where you end up. :)

You wish...I didn't comment on the scriptures...I only posted them for you to read...Didn't like what you saw, eh???

[rzman21]

Please, I don’t start out with your presuppositions on the text.

I liked what I read, but I just am not convinced they MEAN what you say they do.

[Iscool]

Tu quoque!

Did you just call me a dirty name???

[rzman21]

I wasn’t reading the other FReeper’s mind or making it personal because the individual seemed to be trying to read mine by assuming they understood my theology.

I’ll leave out personal pronouns in the future.

[Cronos]

but it doesn't satisfy because the priest or minister cannot know the mind and heart of the ones who do or do not partake of the cup and the bread

True, but look at it this way -- for Lutherans, Orthodox, Catholics, traditional Anglicans, that IS the Body of Christ that we are partaking of -- sacred because that is Christ's body.

1 Cor 11:27-29

[27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice

We also believe that to eat of this unworthily puts one at risk of defying God.

now you may not believe this -- it is your choice.

But if the Eucharist is no more than mere bread to a person, how can we jointly share it?

Correspondingly, to a person who thinks it is just bread, isn't the partaking an acquiscence that this is real?

you are right that the minister doesn't know the heart and mind of the person, but I point out the difficulties if two who have such utterly opposite concepts of the Eucharist partake of it together -- it doesn't work.

[rzman21]

It’s a logical fallacy. Look it up.

[Cronos]

I point out the difficulties if two who have such utterly opposite concepts of the Eucharist partake of it together -- it doesn't work. -- I will give you an historical example of where this led to a lot of problems - in Prussia in the 1800s the Prince-Elector/King in Prussia forcibly joined the Calvinists and Lutherans together into one Church. This led to strains as, while Lutheran believe in the True presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Calvinists do not. Eventually some broke away, but others just acquisied and Christianity lost it's meaning for them, becoming just another department of the state -- which led to the ease of acceptance of Aryan Christianity among them years later.

[Cronos]

I would also say that administering the eucharist to those who promote abortion, gay marriage, euthenasia, etc., is desecration.

When the eucharist is desecrated in such a manner, the sin falls also upon the person who allowed such a person to partake in the eucharist. This is precisely why St. John Crysostom (”the golden-mouthed”) warned that the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops: because bishops bear the moral responsibility of sins they fail to correct.

[verga]

Jesus was baptized with water why not you